Let's talk about our Red Rush strategy... — Tournament Committee

PReDS

6/5/2013 12:22 PM UTC

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Chingis

Why?
Do you think no one has ever opened a map to check for restart wars?

Can we not worry about it? I doubt it.

Vik, regularly, in club tournaments, as a judge, used this to save a lot of time when determining restarts for a match.

Added 2 minutes later

Dirty_Player

I'm already thinking that the most correct thing would be to cancel the red rush.

Why cancel it? It can still be left for skirmishes, for which it was originally created, and maybe even for mini-nostalgia, but at least leave the ban only on attacking the starting town, which is why it was initially introduced. Trying to clone it onto other templates is idiocy.

In reply to PReDS

Wicc

6/5/2013 3:20 PM UTC

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PReDS

Why cancel it? It can still be left for skirmishes, for which it was originally designed, and perhaps for mini-maps, but even then, only the restriction on attacking the starting town should remain, as that was the original reason for its introduction. Trying to apply it to other map templates is absurd.

On mini-maps, red rush is not relevant – it is rarely possible to quickly run from your town to the opponent's castle. And if you manage to bypass the control points, then good for you.

It should be left on skirmish maps, as such runs are possible there. Moreover, I would recommend adding a clarification specifically for skirmish maps – only the starting town should be protected from red rushing. Let heroes attack, there's no need to wander around without money in plain sight of the opponent.

In reply to Dirty_Player

Dima Surmay

6/7/2013 5:09 AM UTC

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Dirty_Player

I'm already thinking that the most sensible thing to do would be to cancel the red rush.

Red is already ahead by a day, and if we allow the red rush, then on the first day of the week, he will be ahead in troop growth for the entire week.

In reply to Dima Surmay

Wicc

6/7/2013 5:00 PM UTC

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Dima Surmay

Red is already ahead by a day, and if red-rush is allowed, it will be ahead in troop growth for the entire week.

On most maps, if blue plays correctly, it won't be vulnerable to a red-rush. On maps where this is impossible (for example, see the CM map), it is suggested to keep the ban on red-rush.

Blue has many advantages of its own, and they also need to be used effectively.

In reply to Pit for LM

Wicc

6/10/2013 2:28 PM UTC

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Dima Surmay

Your statement is completely incorrect, as, on the contrary, on all maps, there is a situation where red can make a rush and win, and blue will not be able to counter it.

I couldn't find anything to respond with... Judging by the tone, your words are backed up by extensive experience playing against strong opponents on various maps. I guess I'll have to take your word for it...

In reply to Pit for LM

Dima Surmay

6/10/2013 2:50 PM UTC

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Why immediately against strong opponents? I aim for roughly equal opponents, as a strong player will win against me, whether I have a Red-Ransom or not.

In reply to Pit for LM

R55Max

6/10/2013 2:59 PM UTC

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I believe that the rules should state that passwords at the end of the game must be provided upon the player's request. If there is no request after the game, then the file can be deleted. There should not be bureaucracy in the form of organizers and judges being asked for passwords; each player should have access to the passwords.

Red rush is definitely an advantage for the red faction, regardless of what anyone says about the blue faction's "privileges." Simple buying and attacking is unfair without the blue player having the ability to buy as well.

МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...

In reply to R55Max

Dirty_Player

6/10/2013 3:44 PM UTC

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R55Max

I believe the rules should state that passwords at the end of the game must be provided upon the player's request; if no request is made after the game, then the file can be deleted. There should be no bureaucracy involving requests to organizers and judges for passwords; everyone should have access to the passwords.

I agree.

R55Max

Red rush is definitely an advantage for red, no matter what anyone says about blue's "privileges." Simple buying and attacking - is unfair without the possibility for blue to do the same.

How about we list the advantages of blue? The fact that blue, when settled in a Castle, immediately replenishes mana after passing the turn, while red can be caught in the city without mana. And not just on the first day of the week, but every day. Red rush is nothing compared to that. Furthermore, blue has an advantage on restarts and the advantage of first pick on the map. Isn't that enough to compensate for some red rush, which still needs to be executed? Oh yes. Blue also has an amazing bonus to take the red Castle on the seventh day and deprive it of its growth, while red doesn't have that possibility, as it can reclaim the Castle during that week. In short, blue has many "privileges," and the later the game progresses, the stronger blue's advantage becomes. Is that fair?

In reply to Dirty_Player

Dima Surmay

6/10/2013 3:59 PM UTC

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Dirty_Player

I agree.

Let's count the advantages of blue. The fact that blue allows you to replenish mana after passing the turn in the Castle, while red can be captured in the city without mana. And not only on the first day of the week, but every day. Red rush is just resting. In addition, blue has an advantage on restarts, and the advantage of the first pick on the Black map. Isn't that enough to compensate for some red rush, which still needs to be executed? Oh yes. Blue also has an awesome bonus, for example, to take the red Castle on the seventh day and deprive it of its growth, while red doesn't have such an opportunity, because it can return the Castle during that week. In short, blue has many "privileges," and the later the game progresses, the stronger the advantage of blue becomes.

You're really something, you even made me laugh with the phrase that it's blue that deprives red of its growth )))))) Now I understand why you're in favor of red rush, and I deeply regret that people like you make the rules and laws in life

In reply to Dima Surmay

Dirty_Player

6/10/2013 4:05 PM UTC

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Dima Surmay

You're hilarious, you even made me laugh with the phrase that blue deprives red of its bonus! )))))) Now I understand why you're in favor of red-rush, and I deeply regret that people like you make rules and laws in life.

What's so funny? Can you provide specific arguments? Because your statements that it's right this way, and not another, aren't very convincing. I personally regret that there are people in life who are so convinced of their own rightness that they don't accept the arguments of others. Do you disagree with everything, or did you just see one funny phrase and latch onto it?

As for red-rush, I'm in favor of it because the restriction should be removed. It doesn't really matter, but it adds a lot of confusion to the rules. I believe that if a player does a red-rush, it means they skillfully used the advantage of their color.

In reply to Pit for LM

Wicc

6/10/2013 4:15 PM UTC

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Yeah. Red rush is essentially effective only on map 131. On map 121, it's rarely possible to reach the opponent, and on maps 141 and later, there are so many resources that the increase provides only a negligible advantage. The main advantage of red is the first turn, which means an extra tempo in territory control. This matters for the first week or two. Then, red rush on map 131. In the late game, with many cities and control, red only has the ability to buy resources earlier for demonizing/transforming. Countering the red rush is incredibly simple: don't leave resources on tile 127 (1x7) within the opponent's reach. And if they are determined to attack a key city, meet them on tile 127 and fight in the field. In other words, with skillful play of blue (which, apparently, Dima Surmay and R55Max are not familiar with), the red rush can only work as a finishing factor. For example, if blue is unable to win the battle on tile 127. The advantages of blue are quite significant, and if it's debatable at the beginning of the game what outweighs what, in the late game, it's much easier to play as blue. That's why it's proposed to leave the ban on red rush only on those maps where blue cannot defend against it, even knowing about red's plans. These are small maps with a relatively small distance between the starting Castles and the nearest strong guard. For example, on the CM map, it's impossible to prevent the red rush due to the Guardian of the Castle, all other things being equal. Also, note that XL+U maps have been played with red rush for many years, and there have been no complaints so far. P.S. Throughout my gaming career, I've only been red-rushed twice, and both times it was due to my own mistakes: once, I saw the attack but messed up the movement calculation, and the other time, I consciously took a risk. P.P.S. There's an observation about bidding for a Castle in WT: if the bid amount does not exceed 1500, it means there is a balance between the Castles being bid on. So, the price for a color usually ranges from 700 to 1500 coins (XL+U maps). There are exceptions, but there are not many.

In reply to Pit for LM

Dima Surmay

6/10/2013 4:26 PM UTC

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I can also provide arguments in favor of keeping the red-rush rule.

1. Red deprives blue of its growth, and not the other way around.
2. Red can buy an army on the first day, and this can be the key to victory if it decides to launch a fast build on that day.

I will also try to list the advantages of the red color:

1. Red is one day ahead, and if the game ends on red's turn, it means that it could potentially have done more to contribute to victory.
2. Red can double its mana on the first day of the week, while blue has a much lower chance of doing this on the 7th day of the week, again, if red decides to launch a fast build on its first turn.

Added 9 minutes later

Wicc

Countering the red-rush is extremely simple - don't leave a 127 (1x7) army in the opponent's reach. And if he is determined to take a key city, meet him at 127 and fight in the field.

That is, with skillful play from blue (which, apparently, Dima Surmay and R55Max are not familiar with), the red-rush can only work as a finishing factor. For example, if blue was unable to win the battle at 127.

You don't understand that with control, red will gather its growth and attack you. And if you were roughly equal at 127, then at 131 you will lose.
Besides, there are cases when a fast build occurs and armies are lost on both sides, in which case blue has no chance at all if the main city of blue is within reach.

In reply to Dima Surmay

Dirty_Player

6/10/2013 4:28 PM UTC

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Dima Surmay

1. Red deprives Blue of resource gain, and not the other way around.
2. Red can buy out the entire army on the first day, and this can be the key to victory if he decides to launch a Fast Build on that day.

1. The opposite will happen if Blue stays in the Castle on day 7, but this is not as significant as it is for Red on day 1.
2. On which week can this become the key to victory? And on which maps? How profitable is it to, for example, clear the treasure to rush for resource gain?

Dima Surmay

1. Red is one day ahead, and if the game ends on Red's turn, it means he could potentially have done more to achieve victory.
2. Red can double his mana on the first day of the week, while Blue has a much lower chance of doing this on the 7th day of the week, again, if Red decides to launch a Fast Build on his turn on the first day.

1. In contrast to this, Blue has advantages on Rest and on Cherk.
2. Blue can replenish his mana simply by passing the turn, and he will always be safe by spending the night in the Castle.

In reply to Wicc

Dima Surmay

6/10/2013 4:40 PM UTC

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Wicc

I should also note that XL+U templates have been used with red rush for many years, and there have been no complaints so far.

This is something new; if you played funky, then it's your business... or were these Tournaments? Give an example of such a case, but not Anarchy, of course.

Added 5 minutes later

Dirty_Player

1. It will be the opposite if blue stays in the Castle on day 7, but this is not as significant as red staying on day 1.
2. Can this become a guarantee of victory on which week, and on which templates? How profitable is it to, for example, abandon clearing the third mine to rush and take the resource increase?

1. Yes, and what does it matter that blue stays in the Castle on day 7; this doesn't prevent him from taking the resource increase!!! (I don't understand at all why you think so)
2. It is not profitable to abandon clearing the third mine, but you will eventually clear it, and it may turn out to be day 7 of the week. Besides, you may already have a Fortress and lose both armies.

In reply to Pit for LM

Wicc

6/10/2013 4:41 PM UTC

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And I forgot to mention about the map templates – there are "red" templates, "blue" templates, and neutral ones. For example, look at this clearly "red" template, simply because the layouts tend to generate slightly better conditions for red. I once conducted research on this topic and published the statistics. Among the "blue" templates, we can mention Mini-Nost, where the layouts are, on average, the same, so the Castle, restarts, and the first choice of creatures matter. As well as the non-tempo nature of the template. Also, Diamond is "blue" according to the current tournament rules (1000+400 control), because the AI plays immediately after the blue player's turn, so on red's turn, it already has complete information about the situation on the map; it doesn't have to revise its plans under the ticking timer. Also, 6lm10a is "blue" because the guards in the corner treasure rooms are slightly weaker there (3K against 6K), and the spaciousness of the template creates approximately equal layouts and the prospect of a late game. The gameplay for red and blue is quite different on 8xm12a; red more often gets a poor central zone with many roads, while blue gets a rich corner zone with long roads. So, here it's more a matter of taste, which color to play. I note that 8mm6 (original) is "red" due to the more convenient road network for red, but 8mm6a is already "neutral"; it was edited specifically for this purpose. On Jebus, the situation is such that the weaker the Castles, the more advantageous it is to play blue – the advantage of restarts decides, and you can make up for a day's lag due to the layout. And for strong Castles, it's better to play red – the right to the first turn decides.

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