Improved balance. — New ideas.

Nargott

13 years ago

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Gemmo

Hello, Heroes World users, I created this thread to discuss the balance in Heroes 5.
Let's start with the fact that any hero in the game can recruit an army of any size and strength, which turns the player into a child who plays, but doesn't manage the game. Moreover, over time, without new missions and campaigns, the game simply becomes boring.
In general, I propose creating a mod that introduces troop salaries, events, and reputation.
For starters, we need to think about a troop salary system.

Regarding troop salaries, this idea has already been discussed for the WGE mod. After careful consideration, it was decided to abandon it, as it is an unnecessary economic complication of the game. If you need serious games with an economy, Heroes is definitely not the right genre. And to avoid recruiting mega-scale armies, it is enough to play in a dynamic style, i.e., to rush – to reach the opponent in 1, 2, or 3 weeks, and not waste several months clearing the map. This is where the potential of heroes as a strategy should be revealed, in my opinion.

Events and reputation are RPG elements, and RPG is not the right genre. Heroes has RPG elements (leveling up), and that is enough for a strategy game. Attempts to combine a bunch of role-playing, economic, and tactical elements are not the best idea.

Ple-Sen

13 years ago

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The idea is quite controversial. The game developers have already limited the size of armies, albeit in a different way. In games where troops require payment, we can produce them endlessly, as long as we have the money. In Heroes, however, the number of troops available for recruitment is limited by weekly increments.
In my opinion, the idea of troops requiring payment is unnecessary.

Гёммё

13 years ago

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Regarding paying troops, this idea has already been discussed for the WGE mod. After careful consideration, it was decided to abandon it, as it introduces unnecessary economic complexity to the game. If you want serious games with complex economies, Heroes is clearly not the right genre. And to avoid hiring mega-sized armies, it's enough to play in a dynamic style, i.e., focus on speed – reach the opponent in 1, 2, or 3 weeks, instead of wasting several months clearing the map. This is where the potential of heroes as a strategy game should be revealed, in my opinion.

You yourself said in the neighboring thread that Heroes should have some resemblance to reality, i.e., resemble a military strategy game. Paying troops, in my opinion, is exactly what is needed to improve Heroes. It is not a complication; it's just that it doesn't suit some maps. You could add a button in the menu before the game and in the editor to give players the choice of whether they want to play with troop payments or not.
By the way, in the games that were the predecessors of Heroes, there were only two resources: gold and crystals. Therefore, I also suggest making three resources: gold, wood, and ore. Then, there would be no need to worry about a lack of resources for building.
Regarding events, you are probably right; it's unnecessary.

In reply to Гёммё

Nargott

13 years ago

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Gemmo

You yourself said in the neighboring thread that Heroes should have some resemblance to reality, i.e., resemble a military strategy. Paying troops, it seems to me, is exactly what is needed to improve the Heroes. It is not a complication, it is just not suitable for some maps. You can make a button in the menu before the game and in the editor to give players a choice of whether they want to play with troop payments or not.
By the way, in the games that were the progenitors of Heroes, there were only two resources: gold and crystals. Therefore, I also suggest making three resources: gold, wood, and ore. Then there is no need to worry about the lack of resources for construction.
Regarding events, you may be right, it is unnecessary.

It is a complication, at least because the maintenance costs will not be displayed in the income graph in the kingdom overview, and thus, the player will constantly have to calculate and keep this figure in mind when planning ahead.

Approximations to reality are good only as long as they do not spoil the gameplay. In Heroes 5, a major drawback is the low turn dynamics, i.e., the long turn duration in real time due to the 3D map and inconvenient camera, as well as more complex battles, slow animation in them, and the starting deployment phase. The low turn dynamics is further aggravated by the low game dynamics due to the features of the maps and cities (city levels in H5 allow you to reach the top levels only by the end of the 2nd week, and in H3 - by the end of the first). And the introduction of a maintenance fee, which requires a certain amount of time to forecast the economy, will further worsen the situation. While many players appreciate Heroes as a strategy precisely because of its simple economic model, without unnecessary complications.

P.S. Autoplay does not really save the dynamics, because the features of the H5 maps imply breaking through with losses close to zero, which autoplay cannot provide (in H3, you could give up half the army and get a wyvern, super artifacts with +6 to all stats, or just a lot of resources, allowing you to compensate for the losses by reaching the top levels early, which H5 does not have). Simultaneous turns do not work on hotseat and in single-player, and are disabled on dynamic maps from the first days.

Added after 1 hour 6 minutes
Regarding reducing the number of resources: is this a copy-paste from Heroes 6? This idea did not work there. And the complications with maintenance do not come from resources in general, but specifically from gold (unless, of course, you introduce payment in resources).

Гёммё

13 years ago

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While many players appreciate Heroes as a strategy game precisely because of its simple economic model, without unnecessary complications.

Okay, I won't insist. But still, some people will want troop salaries, and those who don't need it shouldn't download the mod (which, by the way, will need to be created separately).

It is a complication, at least because the maintenance costs will not be displayed in the income section of the kingdom overview, and thus, the player will constantly have to calculate and keep this figure in mind when planning ahead.

Out of personal interest, I want to ask: why won't it be displayed? Just curious.

Regarding reducing the number of resources: is this a copy-paste from Heroes 6? That idea didn't work there. And the maintenance complications don't come from resources in general, but specifically from gold (unless resource payments are introduced).

No, I heard that the number of resources was reduced in Heroes 6, but I didn't take the idea from there. But still, I want to say that the resources are somewhat illogical; for example, mercury is needed for building structures. Maybe this is one of those features that have been in Heroes from the very beginning.

Approaching reality is good only as long as it doesn't ruin the gameplay.

I agree with you on this, but I'm not suggesting making Heroes like Victoria. I admit, I didn't understand what troop salaries and game dynamics have to do with each other.

dnaop-wr

13 years ago

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Nargott has very accurately described the essence of the problem; no further explanation is needed – I agree. Heroes is not Civilization; it's a combat strategy game, not an economic one.
Where do you get the money from if you start the game with absolutely no resources (on the highest difficulty)? Or do you pay the deceased troops posthumously the next day? And another problem arises – sometimes, to complete a scenario, you need to assemble a strong army. Because of the troop upkeep, the time it takes to assemble such an army can increase several times – it's meaningless, routine work, not a dynamic game.
Regarding resources – have you considered that, for example, mercury is not needed to build a building, but for some kind of bath in which a newborn monster is bathed so that it acquires special abilities? Use your imagination.

In reply to Гёммё

Nargott

13 years ago

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Gemmo

Out of personal interest, I'd like to ask: why won't it be displayed? I'm just curious.

Because the upkeep cost can only be implemented through Lua scripts. The income forecast in the kingdom window only takes into account what the game engine itself tells it, without any scripts.

No, I heard that the number of resources was reduced in Heroes 6, but I didn't take the idea from there. But still, I want to say that the resources are somehow illogical; for example, mercury is needed to build buildings. Maybe this is one of those features that have been in Heroes since the beginning.

Different resources are needed so that the player collects them specifically (for certain buildings), and not all at once. For example, infernals most often need mercury and sulfur, so they will look for mercury and sulfur on the map, and not eat everything in a row.

I admit, I didn't understand what the troop upkeep and game dynamics have to do with it.

Troop upkeep slows down the game. It requires more time per turn (the player has to calculate their expenses themselves, predicting subsequent moves). It requires more turns to gather and maintain a stronger army - unless, of course, the cost of hiring units is reduced in parallel with the upkeep.