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Posts from Time is money, or are you going to waste it?

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Are you okay with the turn time limit of 8(L)-10(XL) minutes in SoD?
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In reply to Nagan-4
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Offline =Stinger=
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Posts: 893
#137
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Nagan-4
Tyoma, this is better than nothing at all. Let there be online lobbies, let people gather, play, and make friends, rather than just arguing. Let there be Tournaments for WoG, Tournaments for SoD, club tournaments, and online tournaments. This is better than a general war of annihilation.

What wars are you talking about, Eric? We're only talking about online play here – everyone can choose their opponent based on skill, time spent playing, or any other criteria. This is what's known as fun. And that's why this poll is fundamentally flawed. Online tournaments have clear rules. The same goes for clubs.
There will never be a unified whole. Joker is still playing against Andre on the Chaos patch for bets, DSVasya, Skuns, DDD, Berlag, Dendroid – the top players in Belarus are doing the same... they just don't want to change, I tried to get them into online play – no way. They just don't need it. I've always said that the best thing is live tournaments (club tournaments). Heroes isn't really an online game, so comparing it to Starcraft, Warcraft, and so on is ridiculous... because there's always the potential for mistrust.
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Offline Lider1
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#138
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=Stinger=

There won't be any unity at all; Joker is still playing with Andre on the chaos patch for a bet.

:D
=Stinger=

Well, they don't want to change, I tried to get them into online play – no way.

Too bad.

It would be interesting to see the "dinosaurs" fighting against today's online warriors :)
=Stinger=

There are some comparisons with Starcraft, Warcraft, etc., it's funny...

Funny, yes.
Сейчас балуюсь этим https://vcmi.eu/download/
За то что нейтралы не бегают за единичкой, для меня это уже стоит того
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Offline KobRa_RR
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Posts: 3,259
#139
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Lider1

Too bad.
It would be interesting to see the battles between the "dinosaurs" and the current online gamers. :)

Dinosaurs don't stream; they are always ready to demonstrate the quality of their gameplay live, as they did about a month ago in Belarus.
=Stinger=

I don't want to make unsubstantiated claims...

so don't make them, just look at who voted and how. :)
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Offline Lider1
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#140
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KobRa_RR
Dinosaurs don't stream; they're always ready to demonstrate the quality of their gameplay live, as they did, for example, about a month ago in Belarus.

That's why it's bad. It's much more convenient and comfortable to watch a stream without getting up from the couch ( :D ) than to travel to Belarus or somewhere else.
Сейчас балуюсь этим https://vcmi.eu/download/
За то что нейтралы не бегают за единичкой, для меня это уже стоит того
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In reply to =Stinger=
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Offline Dirty_Player
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Posts: 11,032
#141
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R55Max
The SOD timer has probably been tested in tens of thousands of SOD games.
Well, apparently it didn't stand the test of time, given the need to create an alternative. And those who have played both versions generally share a similar viewpoint:
CryptoNight
Now that I've started playing W&T, the SOD timer looks incredibly clunky. I played a couple of games with a timer of 1500+400! I had plenty of time – the timer was sufficient for 8mm6a. But those terrible turns that took 20-30 minutes made me step away from large SOD setups for a while... Now I only play 8mm6a in W&T. And I play M&M in SOD. And even in M&M, people took 15-20 minutes per turn – it's awful...
=Stinger=
And with each new level, it becomes a shame to waste time, even on a favorite game.
I agree! That's exactly why this topic came up.

P.S.: I don't think many people took the WCG idea seriously. Wicc's idea was simply that if someone sets specific rules and tasks, people will accept them and play. If necessary, even without any rules at all and with a 2-minute timer. :D
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Offline ariputra
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Posts: 741
#142
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Galina Sergeevna

P.S.: I don't think many people took the WCG idea seriously. Wicc's idea was simply that if someone sets specific rules and tasks, people will accept them and play. If necessary, even without any rules at all, in just 2 minutes.

In this case, WCG could have been that unifying factor (goal), that motivation, for which people with different tastes, habits, and understanding of the game would be willing to make sacrifices and compromises. Of course, considering all the nuances, the probability is, to put it mildly, not very high (but I wouldn't be so sure that it's impossible in principle). Whether it's worth spending your time and effort on this is another, but very good, question.

Ancient Eastern wisdom: "Fear your desires, for they may come true."

But what compromise that satisfies everyone (or at least the majority, at least 50%) can be reached if there is not enough strong motivation?

And Wicc is right in this case, in my opinion.
Isn't it reasonable and logical to sacrifice the rules (e.g., play Anarchy), go for a 2-minute game, for the sake of WCG, for the sake of some other major offline tournament, for the sake of live communication? (in general)

Or is it better to stick to "your own rules" (even if they are very reasonable), time and type limits, and be left without an offline tournament and live communication?
Дурман мирской любви сильнее яда кобры, он глупым может сделать мудреца и увести от цели благородной и дух и волю война храбреца.
"Неизвестная история человечества. Запрещенная археология (с иллюстрациями), Майкл Кремо, Ричард Томпсон,479с,1.46 Мб.
Вакцинация младенцев в роддомах преступление!
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Offline kalababa
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#143
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ariputra, please describe how you envision the process of organizing game participation in various tournaments (WCG, DreamHack, ASUS, etc.).
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Offline Nagan-4
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Posts: 1,151
#144
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Even now, Joker plays with Andre on the chaos patch for stakes, as do DSVasya, Skunks, DDD, Berlag, and Dendroid – these are all top players from Belarus who also play in the same way.

Yes, it would be great to gather the old guard for one tournament, but it's unrealistic; they'd quickly switch to poker.
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Offline KobRa_RR
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#145
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Nagan-4
Yes, gathering the old guard for one tournament would be great, but it's unrealistic; they'd all be playing poker in no time.

You won't believe it, but during those 3 days we spent filming at the estate in Belarus, there wasn't a single poker game!...Apparently, everyone had already played enough of it.
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In reply to KobRa_RR
Offline <Ivor>
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Posts: 177
#146
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"Wicc"
For a game to be considered a competitive esport and be entertaining, it needs at least the following conditions:
1) Fast and dynamic gameplay.
2) Approximately equal starting conditions.

In the context of Heroes, this should look something like this:
1) Mirror matches are a must; otherwise, equal starting conditions cannot be achieved.
2) Chess timer, short time control (600+300 or so), the game should keep the viewer on the edge of their seat, with less deliberation and more action.
3) If the map doesn't allow for contact in the first week, then simultaneous turns up to day 6; the map exploration phase is not as interesting as battles against each other.

Mirror matches are not the only way; it's just the most radical solution to the balance problem on a small map.
It is also possible to create a new random map generator (RMG) or a set of maps with random elements (for example, the terrain doesn't change, but objects are randomly generated from a predefined set in predetermined locations).
However, this problem cannot be solved with the standard RMG.

To speed up the game, the number of battles with neutral creatures needs to be drastically reduced.
"Wicc"

The version is not that important; you can also tweak SoD.

So, someone needs to create a mirror match for SoD? ))
"Wicc"

It's not necessary to find a balance for castles, spells, map objects, and so on; they will be the same anyway.

In the case of mirror matches, the balance for castles and objects is indeed not as important, but a balance is still necessary for "everything else" (such as heroes, schools of magic, skills, etc.).
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Offline ariputra
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#147
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to achieve complete balance, we also need to make people identical, reprogram them, because even in absolutely identical situations, people manage to make different decisions, which leads to imbalance.

Added 2 minutes later
kalababa
ariputra, please describe how you envision moving games to various tournaments (WCG, DreamHack, ASUS, etc.)

either by attracting sponsors and organizers, or by becoming an organizer and sponsor yourself. But, in general, I believe that it is not wise to waste your time, energy, and money - not only on organizing a tournament for computer games (of any kind), but even on playing online games like Heroes.
Дурман мирской любви сильнее яда кобры, он глупым может сделать мудреца и увести от цели благородной и дух и волю война храбреца.
"Неизвестная история человечества. Запрещенная археология (с иллюстрациями), Майкл Кремо, Ричард Томпсон,479с,1.46 Мб.
Вакцинация младенцев в роддомах преступление!
Вред прививок или правда о вакцинации
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Offline R55Max
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Posts: 1,963
#148
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There wasn't time to answer...
Message from Dirty_Player:
Well, apparently it didn't stand the test of time, since a need arose to create an alternative. And those who played both ways most often hold a similar point of view:
....
Actually, it did, as it is still the majority! You found a straw to clutch at by listing players' tastes. I can also list them—what do people who prefer WT or SoD or the chess timer in WT have to do with this? We are talking about the chess timer exclusively in SoD, not about it in WT!
МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...
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Offline Sevensan
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#149
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I don't know. Maybe some people are just slow, but even when I'm thinking about my opponent's moves on the fly, I often don't have enough time to complete what I planned in 10 minutes... Just making moves without a break. But that's just my experience. Of course, it's up to each individual. Not everyone here is a chess candidate master.
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Offline KobRa_RR
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#150
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Sevensan
I don't know. Maybe some people are just slow, but even when I'm thinking about my opponent's moves, I often don't have enough time to do what I planned in 10 minutes... It's just about making moves without a break. But that's just me. Anyway, it's up to everyone. Not everyone here is a chess master.

+1000, in the late game on the HL template, this is critical; you either have to choose what's most important and ignore the rest. :)
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Offline PReDS
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#151
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KobRa_RR
+1000, in the late game on the HL template, this is critical; otherwise, you simply have to choose what is more important and ignore the rest.
However, this is also an element of strategy: being able to skillfully determine priorities. At the same time, I have repeatedly watched streams of games by hardcore players who only use the army exchange and artifact transfer hotkeys: separating units into free slots, detaching a single unit, dividing a stack, merging stacks, etc. - all is done with the mouse and by scrolling with the cursor. This doesn't apply to Kobra; he has everything perfectly organized, but otherwise, it's a complete mess.
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