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Offline Его Высокопреосвященство
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#47
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Well, demons can rampage across any land of Ashan, and the fact that they most often chose the Empire as their primary target speaks volumes about its strength and the fact that demons perceive it as their main enemy. The history of Ashan contains many examples of defeats suffered by any nation, and demons have also suffered defeats in all the Confluxes.
I don't disagree, in general, humans are strong, but at that time, they were just faint memories. And in most cases, they chose not the Empire, but all of Ashan.
Demons suffered defeats, but they won the fourth Conflux. And no one won the war of the fifth Conflux, although the demons were cornered, they could not be defeated.
In the 5th and 6th Confluxes, there were retaliatory strikes against the demon invasions, and in both cases, the Empire was supported. As for the assault on Shi'o, it should rather indicate the madness of the attacker than his strength, as there is no point in this assault. What benefit is there in conquering Shi'o? Are they going to cultivate fields there, or does the Empire lack land?
But in the fourth Conflux, the Empire could have been supported by the Nagas and Necromancers. But the assault on Shi'o did not happen. What does this say? About the weakness of the peoples of Ashan.
What benefit? To try to inflict as much damage as possible, that's the benefit. And why is the assault on Shi'o madness? It was stormed 3 times, and it was not stormed by fools or madmen.
Okay, then why couldn't he defeat the Grey Alliance, which not only repelled the attack but also almost drove him out of Shi'o? Why did he suffer defeat from the four heroes? Did he underestimate them? This doesn't hold up to any criticism.
Actually, the Grey Alliance was defeated, the "elite of the Empire" perished, and Cyrus and Alaron fled. As for the four heroes, their arrogance had to blind them. Why would he need gnats around him? He achieved his goal. And these four will tear each other's throats out. But that's just my guess.
And why, in fact, should he pay attention to this prophecy? If he is so strong, why doesn't he issue his own prophecy and appoint the one who should give birth to the Messiah? Instead, he is guided by the words of a simple human mage.

But this is even less a sign of strength. Why wait if you are all-powerful? If you are all-powerful, you shouldn't wait - you take everything you want and when you want.
Isn't the meaning of the word "strength" the same as the meaning of the word "wisdom"?
We have different concepts of the word "omnipotence." It's not in the sense that he can do anything.
And omnipotence only gives an advantage in strength and power, but not in determining the time of someone's birth, and so on. Kha-Beleth is powerless against dragons and their magic; he cannot control the cycle of life. But in relation to the rest, he is indeed omnipotent.
I don't know of any cases where Kha-Beleth suddenly falls asleep and utters prophecies.
But this is even less a sign of strength. Why wait if you are all-powerful? If you are all-powerful, you shouldn't wait - you take everything you want and when you want.
Just as he cannot control the cycle of life, he cannot control the flow of time. It's not within his competence.
I said that the imp could have counted Urgash among the total number, and there is no reason to expect competence from some dim-witted imp in matters of the higher hierarchy of Shi'o, if even the demon lord Vayyar did not know this for sure.
And the number 7 seems more logical and justified to me, and there are many mentions of it on various forums, I just don't want to look for them. In general, this has a very vague relationship to our discussion, so I suggest we close this issue.
Indeed, it doesn't matter, but the imp is right, since the Overlord listens to him. And Vayyar, well, you know, he's a bit... eccentric, and everyone admits it. But Kha-Beleth is still eternal.
Дайте мне всего шесть строк, написанных рукой самого честного человека, и я найду, за что его можно повесить.
Весьма хороший попутчик... До первого перекрестка.
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Offline Ment
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#48
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Again, the same arguments... Don't compare the power of the Overlord with the power of dragons. Compared to non-dragons, Kha-Belekh is all-powerful.
Omnipotence is an absolute, not a relative concept. Either you can do everything, or you can't do everything. And, let's say, I understand why you can't compare Kha with Ashai or Urgash. But Sar-Elam himself, with his human abilities, with his own, most ordinary mind of an average mage, made himself a Dragon. Why can't he be compared to Kha, who initially possessed much greater power, given to him by Urgash himself, but in the end turned out to be nothing compared to Sar-Elam?
 

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Offline Его Высокопреосвященство
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#49
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Omnipotence is an absolute, not a relative, concept. Either you can do everything, or you can't do everything.
In this context, "omnipotence" is equated with "omnipotence." Askh also cannot do everything, but she is still called omnipotent.
And, let's say, I understand why you can't compare Kha with Askh or Urgash. But Sar-Ilam, by his own human strength, with his own, most ordinary mind of an ordinary mage, made himself a Dragon. Why can't he be compared with Kha, who initially possessed much greater power, given to him by Urgash himself, but in the end turned out to be nothing compared to Sar-Ilam?
No one knows how it happened that Sar-Ilam was suddenly given immense power (it was given to him, he did not create it himself). However, it is well known that Askh was in love with Sar-Ilam. But this is just another guess. But still, why compare Kha-Belekh with a dragon, even if it's not an original one? At that time, Kha-Belekh was just an ordinary archdemon.
Дайте мне всего шесть строк, написанных рукой самого честного человека, и я найду, за что его можно повесить.
Весьма хороший попутчик... До первого перекрестка.
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Offline SAF
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#50
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His Most Reverend Eminence
No one won the War of the Fifth Eclipse, although the demons were driven into a corner, but they could not be defeated.
So why didn't the all-powerful Overlord win this war, and moreover, allowed himself to be driven into a corner, since he was not fighting against the dragon gods?
Did he simply not want to?
The War of the Fourth Eclipse cannot be considered a victory, except for the capture of the capital by the demons; nothing else is known. It is quite possible that after this, they were driven back by the combined forces of the Empire's duchies, but I repeat, there is no information about the demons' further actions. And Kha-Belekh's main goal in that war was to exterminate absolutely all representatives of the Falcon dynasty, which he failed to do, and based on this alone, one can say that the demons failed in that war.
His Most Reverend Eminence
What is the benefit? To try to inflict as much damage as possible, that is the benefit. And why is the assault on Shio madness? It was stormed 3 times, and it was not stormed by fools or madmen.
The meaning of the assault on Shio can only be one: the complete destruction of the demons, which is only possible if all the countries and peoples of Ashan unite their efforts. So, the claims here are against all of Ashan, and not just the Empire, since an assault on Shio by the Empire alone would certainly be madness, which was proven by Alex Gryphon.
His Most Reverend Eminence
In fact, the Gray Alliance was defeated, the "elite of the Empire" perished, and Cyrus and Alaron fled.
His Most Reverend Eminence
No one won the War of the Fifth Eclipse, although the demons were driven into a corner, but they could not be defeated.
You contradict yourself. In one case, the demons were driven into a corner, and no one won, but in the other, it turns out that the demons, who were supposedly driven into a corner, defeated the Gray Alliance and put Alaron and Cyrus to flight.
His Most Reverend Eminence
But in relation to the rest, he is indeed all-powerful.
Again, why didn't he have enough strength and power to defeat the Gray Alliance?
His Most Reverend Eminence
But still, Kha-Belekh is eternal.
Eternal or not, but there is nothing eternal in Ashan, and even the one who created it can destroy it. So, yes, Kha-Belekh is a very strong and mighty demon, undoubtedly long-lived and not aging, but he is still not eternal in the absolute sense of the word.
His Most Reverend Eminence
No one knows how it happened that Sar-Ilam was suddenly given immense power (it was given to him, he did not create it himself)
In fact, it is known: being the first mage, he spread the doctrine that everyone can achieve the power of the Elemental Dragons, and he succeeded. He achieved the consciousness of Ashan (which, apparently, even the Elemental Dragons could not achieve) on his own, and no one helped him in this.
His Most Reverend Eminence
At that time, Kha-Belekh was an ordinary archdemon.
One of the 7 (8) original Demon Lords is an ordinary archdemon?
In terms of status, he is equal to an Elemental Dragon.
And Sar-Ilam was indeed an ordinary mortal who, as Ment noted, surpassed the Overlord in progress and power.
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Offline Его Высокопреосвященство
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#51
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So why didn't the all-powerful Overlord win this war, and moreover, allowed himself to be cornered, especially since he was not fighting against gods - dragons? Did he simply not want to?
How can he win the war if all his warriors have perished? It wasn't him who allowed himself to be cornered; it was his miserable servants who failed to hold the line and let the enemies into Shio.
The War of the 4th Eclipse cannot be considered a victory, except for the capture of the capital by demons; nothing else is known. It is quite possible that after that, they were driven back by the combined forces of the duchies of the Empire, but I repeat, there is no information about the further actions of the demons. And the main goal of Kha-Belekh in that war was to eliminate absolutely all representatives of the Falcon dynasty, which he failed to do, and based on this alone, one can say that the demons failed in that war.
No, this war was indeed won because the enemy kingdom ceased to exist, and a new one was formed only after the eclipse. But the goal - to destroy the Falcons - was not achieved. However, from the point of view of "interstate relations," the demons won and could have imposed some agreement that was beneficial to them and forced them to pay reparations, if they could have stayed. Although, what reparations could there be; they would have burned everything down.
The purpose of storming Shio may be one thing: the complete destruction of the demons, which is only possible if all the countries and peoples of Ashan unite their efforts. So, here, the claims are against all of Ashan, and not just the Empire, since storming Shio with the forces of only one Empire would definitely be madness, which was proven by Alex Griffin.
The Empire was not alone there. Three major kingdoms opposed the demons, so they can be credited to Ashan. And this was clearly not madness, since three kings decided so, two of whom lived quite a long time and gained experience and wisdom.
Again, why didn't he have enough strength and power to defeat the Gray Alliance?
Again, there were no military forces, but he did kill Alex. One is not a warrior in the field. And the elves and mages retreated. But since he himself no longer had any armies, and the Gray Alliance ceased to exist, it's a draw.
You contradict yourself. In one case, the demons were cornered, and no one won, but in the other, it turns out that the demons, who were supposedly cornered, defeated the Gray Alliance and put Alaron and Cyrus to flight.
I expressed myself incorrectly; I apologize. The alliance fell apart; that would be a more accurate statement. And therefore, neither side could claim victory.
Eternal, not eternal, but there is nothing eternal in Ashan, and even the one who created it can destroy it. So, yes, Kha-Belekh is a very strong and mighty demon, undoubtedly long-lived and not aging, but still not eternal in the absolute sense of the word.
I already wrote about this; he lives as long as the world lives. For Ashan, he can be considered eternal. If Ashan disappears, Kha-Belekh will disappear as well.
In fact, it is known that he, being the first mage, spread the doctrine that everyone can achieve the power of the Elemental Dragons, and he succeeded. He achieved the consciousness of Ashan (which, apparently, even the Elemental Dragons could not do) by his own efforts, and no one helped him in this.
It was not he who achieved the consciousness of Ashan; it was Ashan that revealed itself to him. This is where Ashan helped him. Ashan arranged the world so that no one could achieve the power of the Primordials until the Primordials themselves wished it.
One of the 7 (8) original Demon Lords is just an ordinary archdemon?
in status, he is equal to an Elemental Dragon.
And Sar-Elam was indeed an ordinary mortal who, as Ment noted, surpassed the Overlord in progress and power.
Here lies the contradiction between the fifth and sixth games. In the fifth game, an archdemon is just an ordinary devil. But in the sixth game, an archdemon is a demon lord. In this case, Kha-Belekh was an archdemon-lord, just like the other lords.
In terms of status, no one is equal to the Elemental Dragons except the Elemental Dragons themselves. Demon Lords are not Primordials; they are just the ordinary leaders of Shio. If the lords were dragons, Ashan would not exist.
Sar-Elam, although a simple mortal, is (I'm tired of repeating) endowed with the power of the Dragons. He could not have achieved this on his own; Ashan was involved here.
Дайте мне всего шесть строк, написанных рукой самого честного человека, и я найду, за что его можно повесить.
Весьма хороший попутчик... До первого перекрестка.
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Offline SAF
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#52
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His Eminence
If Ashan leaves, Kha-Belekh will leave too.
Or Urgash might want him to leave. Besides, something might happen to him, just like it happened to other Demon Lords (i.e., he might be deposed).
His Eminence
It wasn't him who reached Ash's consciousness; it was she who opened her consciousness to him. Ash helped him in this.
Yes, Ash opened her consciousness to him, but why? There was a man, and suddenly – you're already in Ash's consciousness? It seems that all sources clearly indicate that Sar-Elam was the first to "make contact" with Ash: "Sar-Elam, the first mage, touches the consciousness of the Dragon of Order and learns the nature of matter and spirit and the highest path of power" - the quote is taken from this site. I'm saying that Ash didn't just make Sar-Elam the Seventh Dragon; he fully deserved it.
His Eminence
In terms of status, no one is equal to the Elemental Dragons except for the Elemental Dragons. Demon Lords are not primordial; they are just ordinary leaders of the Shio. If the Lords were dragons, Ashan wouldn't exist.
Perhaps you misunderstood me; by Elemental Dragons, I mean Elrath, the Dragon of Light, Silanna, the Dragon of Earth, etc.
Then it goes like this: Ash created these Dragons first, and Urgash, in turn, created the Demon Lords, the progenitors of the demon race. Of course, the Demon Lords may be weaker than the Dragons, but in terms of status, or, if you will, in terms of birthright, they are equal.
His Eminence
He couldn't have achieved this on his own; Ash was involved.
But Kha-Belekh's power also wouldn't have been possible without Urgash. However, the Overlord remained a Demon Lord, only becoming a full-fledged master of the Shio.
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Offline Его Высокопреосвященство
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#53
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Or Urgash might want him to leave. Besides, something might happen to him, just like it happened to other Demon Lords (i.e., demotion).
Yes, demotion is possible, but it requires immense power (legions of angels, for example, because only angels could defeat Azkaal).
Yes, Askh revealed her consciousness to him, but why? There was a man, and suddenly – you're in Askh's consciousness? It seems that all sources clearly indicate that Sar-Elam was the first to "establish contact" with Askh: "Sar-Elam, the first mage, touches the consciousness of the Dragon of Order and learns the nature of matter and spirit and the highest path of power" - the quote is taken from this site. I'm saying that Askh didn't just make Sar-Elam the Seventh Dragon; he fully deserved it.
A simple answer is that even the Primordials can fall in love. And Askh was not immune to feelings. He opened his soul to her – she opened hers to him. And now Sar-Ilám is a Dragon.
Perhaps you misunderstood me; by Elemental Dragons, I mean Elrath, the Dragon of Light, Silanna, the Dragon of Earth, and so on. Further: Askh first created these Dragons, and Urgash, in turn, created the Demon Lords, the progenitors of the demon race. Of course, the Demon Lords may be weaker than the Dragons, but in terms of status, or, if you will, in terms of birthright, they are equal.
I understand everything perfectly. However, Urgash is so greedy and ambitious that he would not tolerate equals near him. And in general, Askh invested her first powers in creating dragons, while Urgash invested in a stone that turned into an ordinary demon. But even demons recognize themselves as inferior to dragons in status.
But the power of Kha-Belekh also came about thanks to Urgash. The only thing is that the Lord remained a Demon Lord, except that he became the full master of Shio.
Dragons decide for themselves who to accept into their circle and who not. Askh revealed herself to Sar-Ilám, but Urgash did not reveal himself to any of his followers. If Urgash had shared his knowledge and power with the Lord, I don't think Kha-Belekh would be inferior to Sar-Ilám in anything.
Дайте мне всего шесть строк, написанных рукой самого честного человека, и я найду, за что его можно повесить.
Весьма хороший попутчик... До первого перекрестка.
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Offline Sanctuary
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#54
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His Most Reverend Eminence
If Urgash had shared his knowledge and power with the Overlord, I don't think Kha-Beleth would have been inferior to Sar-Ilam in any way.
well, judging by the fact that Urgash is locked in Shio and Ashha is "free," she is stronger than Urgash:smile01:.
Маласса ждёт...
Маласса знает...
Маласса за всеми наблюдает...
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Offline Ment
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#55
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The simple answer is that even the Primordials can fall in love. And Ashu was no exception. He opened his soul to her, and she opened hers to him. And now, Sar-Elam has become a Dragon.
Haha. You might as well say they got married. I think there's no need to speculate any further in this discussion: the fact is that a mage became a Dragon, with Ashu's help. But according to official sources, Ashu enlightened Sar-Elam, and didn't engage in any kind of power transfer, at least I haven't seen anything about that, so, in fact, he acquired the power that surpassed Kha-Belekh himself, based solely on Ashu's knowledge.
 

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Offline Его Высокопреосвященство
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#56
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You know, judging by the fact that Urgash is locked in Shio and Asra is "free," she (Asra) is stronger than Urgash.
So what? The nature of demons has always bestowed greater power upon their followers than other races receive from their own. Besides, Asra cannot leave her moon – she has weakened too much. I don't argue, Asra is stronger. But that doesn't mean that her followers are stronger than their demonic opponents.
Haha. You might as well say they got married. I think there's no need to speculate in this discussion: the fact is that the mage became a Dragon, with Asra's help, yes. But according to official sources, Asra enlightened Sar-Elam, and didn't engage in any kind of power transfer, at least I haven't seen anything about this aspect anywhere, which means, in fact, he acquired the power that surpasses Kha-Beleth himself, based solely on Asra's knowledge.
But the fact that she sympathized with Sar-Elam is a fact. No one was engaged in power transfers, yes. But if Kha-Beleth had based his power on Urgash's knowledge, the world of Asra would have been the opposite of others.
And, to be fair (this is, of course, silly), if Asra had opened her mind to Kha-Beleth, the Eighth Dragon would have appeared, and he would have been a demon.
Let's just forget about dragons. After all, Sar-Elam is a Dragon. That's how the world is: good is stronger.
Дайте мне всего шесть строк, написанных рукой самого честного человека, и я найду, за что его можно повесить.
Весьма хороший попутчик... До первого перекрестка.
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Offline SAF
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#57
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His Eminence
The simple answer is that even the Primordials can fall in love. And Ashu was no exception. He opened his soul to her – and she to him. And now Sar-Ilam is already a Dragon.
So, Sar-Ilam undeservedly became a Dragon?
His Eminence
However, Urgash is so greedy and ambitious that he would not tolerate equals near him.
Well, even seven Dragons are not equal to Ashu.
His Eminence
But in terms of status, even demons recognize themselves as being below dragons.
According to the hierarchical ladder, both dragons and demon lords are second after Ashu and Urgash, respectively.
His Eminence
That's how the world is: good is stronger.
That's why I claim that the Overlord is at least not omnipotent;) and I chose Railag in the poll (and, judging by all, the main arbiter of Ashan's fate, i.e., Ubisoft, agrees with me)
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Offline Его Высокопреосвященство
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#58
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In other words, Sar-Elam undeservedly became a Dragon?
Why not? He deserved it, for his diligence and effort. But he couldn't have done it without help.
Well, even seven Dragons are no match for Askha.
She at least divided her knowledge in an orderly manner: light - to Elratu, air - to Silatu, the twilight aspect - to Malasse, and so on. And that is why the Dragons are unmatched in their element. And Urgash can only plunder and burn, so the demons inherited only the desire to destroy the world. This is where they are weak compared to the Dragons.
According to the hierarchical ladder, both Dragons and demon lords are second after Askha and Urgash, respectively.
Only in their own, demonic hierarchy, and even then, the demons perfectly understand that none of their lords can withstand a meeting with a Dragon, and therefore they do not emulate him. However, the Ashanites, for the most part, do not worship either of them. And the demons worship only Kha-Beleth. So their status is diminished. It's only on paper that they are equal to the Dragons.
Urgash created the lords not as conductors of order in the world, but only as leaders of his armies. Besides, the lords are not Primordial, and were created as servants, not allies. And servants, naturally, must be weaker than their master, even all together.
That's why I claim that the Overlord is at least not omnipotent and chose Railag in the poll (and, judging by all, the main arbiter of fate of Ashan, i.e., Ubisoft, agrees with me)
Omnipotent (not for Dragons), if not all-powerful, but to claim that Railag is stronger than the Overlord... Ha, Railag only managed to survive thanks to his friends and the fact that the Overlord cannot leave his prison.
Railag is the arbiter of fate of Ashan? What has he done for it that could have changed its fate? He could not influence the birth of the Messiah. So, he has not done anything significant. Except for killing Nicholas.
Дайте мне всего шесть строк, написанных рукой самого честного человека, и я найду, за что его можно повесить.
Весьма хороший попутчик... До первого перекрестка.
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#59
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His Most High Eminence
Omnipotent (not for dragons), if not omniscient, but to claim that Railag is stronger than the Overlord... Ha, Railag only survived thanks to his friends and the fact that the Overlord cannot leave his prison.
Railag, the shaper of Ashan's destiny? What has he done for him that could have changed his fate? He couldn't influence the birth of the Messiah. So, he hasn't done anything significant. Except for killing Nicholas.
As I mentioned in my first post, the Overlord seems to be the strongest; he is, to put it more correctly, "a class above" the others.
But it's not always the case that the strong defeat the weak; very often, the opposite happens, and there are many examples of this in life and in the game.
And it's not clear by what criteria to determine who is stronger: a one-on-one fight? commanding an army? maybe someone can out-magic someone else? under what conditions will the duel take place?
And Railag is indeed one of the shapers of Ashan's destiny. In addition to killing Nicholas, this can also include the unification of Igg-Shail and the defeat of the demon worshipers there, and thus the participation of all warlocks in the alliance at the end of the original campaign. Furthermore, Railag is the heir of Tieru and the only Dragon Knight (as far as I understand), thus he inherited the thousand-year history, powers, and knowledge of this order, which already makes him one of the main shapers of Ashan's destiny
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Offline Его Высокопреосвященство
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As I mentioned in my first post, the Overlord seems to be the strongest; he is, shall we say, "a class above" the others.
But it's not always the case that the strong defeat the weak; very often, the opposite happens, and there are plenty of examples of this in both life and in the game.
And it's not clear by what criteria to determine who is stronger: a one-on-one fight? commanding an army? maybe someone will out-magic someone else? under what conditions will the duel take place?
How to compare? Compare by all criteria and see who is stronger. According to the scenario, the Overlord is clearly the strongest; in terms of commanding an army (meaning defense, attack, and all bonuses to troops), only Markel (in the third mission of the sixth campaign), Gotai (after capturing Shahibdia, he receives large bonuses), and Biara can compete with the Overlord.
In terms of who will out-magic whom, it is clearly either the Overlord or Markel.
One-on-one - the Overlord will definitely win.
And Railag is indeed one of the shapers of Ashan's destiny. Besides killing Nicholas, this can also include the unification of Igg-Shail and the defeat of the demon worshipers there, and thus the participation of all Warlocks in the alliance at the end of the original campaign. In addition, Railag is the heir of Tieru and the only Dragon Knight (as far as I understand), thus he inherited the thousand-year history, power, and knowledge of this order, which already makes him one of the main shapers of Ashan's destiny.
He is a shaper of the destiny of Igg-Shail and (partially) Isabel, but not of all of Ashan. He could not eradicate the demon worshipers, and he united Igg-Shail for a short time. His participation in the campaign to Shio did not yield any tangible results for Ashan, and the results of the campaign worsened the already difficult situation of their world.
The fact that he is the heir of Tieru is, of course, commendable, but it does not play a decisive role in the fate of Ashan. Tieru fought the demons for 200 years, and only the last 20 years were somewhat fruitful. But he died, and note that not without the participation of the Overlord. And his heir could not stop Kha-Beleth - the Messiah is born, Ashan is in ruins.
Дайте мне всего шесть строк, написанных рукой самого честного человека, и я найду, за что его можно повесить.
Весьма хороший попутчик... До первого перекрестка.
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Offline Ment
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#61
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(as far as I understand)
For some reason, it seemed to me that Tieru was not the only Knight of the Dragon Order at that time (though I might be wrong).
 

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