Posts from Турниры HeroesWorld Cup & World Cup - 2012

We were just analyzing the Chinese player's saves with Neo. Unfortunately, there is a 1% chance that he played honestly against Gomunguls, since even his extremely illogical actions can be excused.
Another point that seems to have been missed concerns the boots.
Can someone explain why he didn't take the boots? He tried to hit the birds even WITHOUT DELIVERY. Lost the tent and the ballista. Are the boots worth it? I think yes. And with the delivery of single units, you can even hide the tent with the scout hero. The ballista can be bought later if needed. But he sharply turns away from the boots, indeed, why would he need them if the final is near, the Griffin Conservatory is more important to meet the opponent properly.
I tried to twist it this way: the boots are cleared but not taken, but then the chains align very tightly, Tyrax is sent home for the spell book, but if the conservatory must be taken exactly today, then the scout hero takes it, but with the loss of 3 birds and a bear. But the army remains with the scout hero, and to bring it back, you need to exchange all resources down to zero.

Further. Theoretically, not taking Earth and Air can be justified. Like, he urgently needs to level up Logistics. Nonsense, of course, but let's assume. But then if this guy is so fast, why does he refuse a bonus like the boots?

Further, let's chew over the topic. So why didn't he immediately take Air and Earth? Because there is no Slow, and it's not in the shrines either. He didn't bother with Shield. Haste is only in the distant Inferno — inconvenient. That is, Earth won't be needed in the next 10 days or so. But Armor, if not taken at level 7, will be offered as late as level 11. And this absolutely doesn't fit the pace — after all, you need to break through the mages for the Breastplate of +4, what if they chicken out?.... And then Earth would be offered only by level 13 — which could also be critical — what if it's the final??.. Artillery, however, doesn't fit into such an ideal skill tree. But it came in handy in the end.

And once again I'll return to Earth and Air: IMHO the 1st skill is one of the two most important in SOD along with Logistics (and Logistics is already there), the 2nd skill is the most important for a Barbarian, especially with the Bear Rider ability. It's unclear why he refused Air, well maybe he thought that since he has Tactics, even a slowed unit will reach the opponent.. who knows...

http://sc2tv.ru/content/heroes-iii-world-cup-neoandy-vs-pit-lm

Heroes III World Cup. Neoandy vs Pit for LM

Artyom, did you even look at the saves? In motion?
If so, give your assessment of Shakti's route from 211: crypt-well-hive-Griffin Conservatory-ambush for half a turn in the rear, so as not to scare the computer?

I'm not so much interested in supporting the accusation or defending Reb right now, as I don't understand when people write posts like "such a good person, etc.", but in reality nothing (Alone the same thing).

Or maybe I missed/didn't understand something, and you'll clue me in (I'm serious).

Neo, are you seriously thinking you can just pick your nose over this Dragon Utopia in the corner? You saw what you wanted to see. You don't see the variability of possible developments, or you don't want to. I think Reb isn't the only one who does this; the topic of utopias in the corner has been chewed over more than once, including regarding Britva, to no avail. Let's be consistent here - either we punish everyone for a utopia in a corner/darkness, or we completely drop this pointless matter.

You write that you're not interested in supporting the defense or the accusation right now, but nevertheless you deliver your quite transparent verdict, and many people are guided by it.

I considered all 5 episodes insufficient for accusations of cheating. 4 out of 5 are completely far-fetched.

1. What's the problem with the crypt there? Would some extra money (which isn't exactly plentiful there anyway) for the last 3 remaining noobs really interfere? Yes, it's not tempo-efficient, but that's his style, what's there to be puzzled about? Jumping into a dark zone with a well - why not? There's always a chance to return through it. Maybe there's a metro there to a treasure zone. And why can't you jump into a dark zone with control? What rules forbid that? Especially since corners often give goodies. I've done it myself many times, I'm a cheater too, please ban me immediately. What does the computer have to do with it, who needs it in the second month of the game when someone can attack and kill you at any moment? Maybe there was a calculation for a prison, to free a prisoner to repel orange. But the main goal at this stage is searching for goodies, not computers. He found them, so now let's punish him for it.
2. He took a risk, took one pandora's box, didn't risk the second one without the tome. The guy guessed right, what's the crime here? Everyone has their own fears according to their own level of depravity.
3. No, come on, what nonsense. He absolutely had to stand still, recall home, attack, surrender, do something else, but under no circumstances run into the sands. After all, there were 25 more rational options for developments in the enemy-occupied center.
4. "Crag hacks the pandora's box for hounds but doesn't take it - it has magic, the hero has no tome. Later the pandora's box is taken by a hero with a tome."
OMG, THAT'S EXACTLY THE EXAMPLE TO FOLLOW!!! Exactly, this is the only way to act if the hero has no tome. I would have understood if this weren't Jebus Cross, where risking for money is often justified on many templates. But here, if you please.
5. Completely irrelevant. I don't know what to comment here, nothing to suck out of thin air.

For a verdict, these half-moments are pitifully insufficient; I got the impression that a group of young people decided to play witch hunt. To spice up forum activity with squabbles.
Vic, maybe you have some saves, since you've included Reb in your list? Maybe you could announce the whole thing, and we'll quickly purge our ranks.

It was interesting to read how Mr. Neo guides young, but not overly zealous, players on the subject of cheating in rebattle.
I haven't looked at the save files; I don't have time for that, but I will support such a person, even though I didn't understand it before. How else could one find Pandora the day before his death in several games against him in Heroes, and then I realized that Heroes is a game of luck. It seems like you're doing everything technically and at the right pace, but a miraculous rescue appears, which makes you want to smash the monitor... I looked at the save files and didn't make a fuss because Pit admitted his defeat. As for the fact that I had heard for a long time that no one plays against Blacknight because he's a cheater, to listen to a clumsy person and draw conclusions from one suspicious episode with Utopia, after so many years, for those who play with him often and know his style and character, that's just a coincidence, not a map hack. I briefly understood the other episodes and don't want to examine them further. It's a pity that someone got carried away and someone else decided to bring him down.

Petya, stated it categorically:)

But the Dragon Utopia is the main argument. As Sticky correctly noted, I initially took the position of defending a person I know personally and for whom I have only positive emotions.. and a guy who has had nothing on him for many years..
The fact that 2 saves are far-fetched has already been confirmed by many forum members.
The save with Crag Hack is at most debatable - because it's Jebus Cross. Some say forget about that money or magic, I would personally go with the folder - since there's no leveling yet, and it's extremely necessary to break into the center.
With Ivor - the moment is indeed suspicious, but it doesn't amount to much as a charging argument (see Stinger's post)
The main question is about the Dragon Utopia.
I wouldn't have done it that way. But if we assume the guy is inexperienced at 8mm6, then such a move could be allowed. Although it turns out a bit too perfectly.
And after this save, less significant ones start surfacing.
In short, I don't know, talked to one person I respect - our opinions align, we were seemingly on Andrey's side initially, but at the same time it's hard to believe in a Shakhterovskiy move specifically, and still I want to think that this whole mess is slander..
A rare case when there is no clear position.

Regarding the situation with the Chinese player, I initially took the opposite stance, like, they're beating our guys. Especially since I suffered from him myself.. But if we assume that both Reb and the Chinese player are hackers, then I see the difference between them as follows:
Reb, if he hacked, did it somehow ineptly, with huge exposure, and against a player with some reputation.. The Chinese player, if we assume he hacked, did it professionally and cynically. And here there are aggravating circumstances... because if it's a map hack, then apparently it's been put on an assembly line.

P.S. Just thinking out loud.
Reb, as a far from stupid person, could have assumed that his saves would be scrutinized, so in case of cheating, being as not stupid, he probably wouldn't have exposed himself so much. In short, I don't know, no one knows except Reb himself.

People, at least take a look at the saves.
I saw them all without even downloading from HeroesWorld back when I was talking to Stiki after the Miner's trip to Dragon Utopia that things were fishy; we decided to wait. Then Taz and Dragon Utopia also decided everything was too suspicious—to actually take Dragon Utopia, you have to be sure there is something there—and he settled into the Castle being certain that Kreg wouldn't reach him, and you can only know that if...!! Jebus Cross is one thing; it's a normal excuse since experience isn't common there. But already in 8xM8 where one Pandora is taken and another is left for the book, this is pure nonsense. Once with the Miner, you could still think "okay," but overall I believe it's enough.
And as for the defenders: just because you know him and he hasn't been noticed doing this before doesn't mean he isn't that kind of person.
To Javdet: regarding VLK, okay, I got it and had a laugh; but regarding the cheaters, I actually didn't understand your point.
Regarding BK, people, you are delusional—he only asked to evaluate the saves; what is so wrong with that, I have no idea?? He wasn't the one making the decision...

or the fact that Blacknight lumped in seasonings from two more saves, which are completely useless, just for the sake of the campaign. How should we understand this?

What I wanted to say.

Remember, when you write something negative about Slava, that he didn't make the decision (whether it was the right one or not, I won't judge).

There are judges...they voted.

Judges...it would be nice if they could satisfy everyone...but how to make that desire a reality...that's the question....

but the fact that Blacknight lumped in seasonings from two more saves that are completely useless, just for the campaign. How should we understand this?

Where did you get the information that BK uploaded all the saves?

Don't forget that when you write something negative about Slava, it wasn't him who made the decision...

They provided saves with an obvious provocation - he fell for the provocation - a decision was made very quickly - and it was quickly put into action.

At the very least, he earned a "face of the table" award.

I see the heavy artillery has joined the fray.

First, heroes aren't like the mafia. Many people know who Vic is in the context of heroes. But who is Vic in the mafia? What's the point of that question? In the mafia, there's very little objective information; in most cases, a person always has a chance to talk their way out of it, even if they're spouting nonsense on, say, the "first day." Second, the process of playing mafia heavily depends on the group. In a certain company, the arguments might be at the level of "this person seems suspicious to me, therefore they need to be eliminated, just in case."

So, Vic, here are your arguments regarding the psychological profile: "let's eliminate Rebel," "just in case." He's not acting right. He's more nervous than the others, he used the wrong words, and he didn't use the right punctuation. Therefore, "execute him." This, by the way, is the portrait of a self-satisfied executioner. There were such people during the Inquisition, and even in more recent times, when they demanded "a cleansing of the ranks."

I would, of course, like to hear the opinion of a hero master about the "gameplay," but the maestro is too lazy to study it himself. So, I'll share some of my own thoughts.

1. The whole process was rushed. It happened quickly. This usually happens when a decision has already been made, and it's necessary to create the illusion of a "public" discussion.

2. Due to a lack of arguments, they included completely "harmless" saves in the selection, presumably just to add to the pile. This is also a familiar tactic.

3. An attempt to shift responsibility onto unknown characters without making a fuss. Who is Spill, Tiamath, who else is Redwait, or maybe the "prince of the Portal Kingdom"? And do StickyFingaz and Pete want to be seen as completely innocent? Sure...

4. Neoendi, who is known for finding a maphack in Pavel Dubrovin's saves, honestly reported it. There's only one suspicious point!

5. Despite the colossal work of the investigative department, only ONE suspicious point was found, but who will care about that when the decision has already been made?

6. If you take off the glasses with the strong lenses, it becomes clear that everyone who made the decisions about the saves is SIGNIFICANTLY weaker than Rebellius in terms of level and understanding of the game.

7. The bottom line, gentlemen, who are involved in the ban of Rebellius (by the way, my ideological opponent), you are not just judges. You have all gotten yourselves into a mess. Cheating by Rebellius was exposed! This is the main news on the tournament website, and all comments on it are carefully moderated.

P.S. Vic, regarding your "list" (where did Thinkeer come from??). It's an interesting thing, but it's only for internal use. You wouldn't claim that everyone on your list is a maphacker, would you? So, the coincidence flatters your ego, but it has zero practical value.

Along the way, just from one line of reasoning, I'll add my own.

It's doubly sad that from being the main defender, he practically became almost the main prosecutor.

Drawing parallels with jurisprudence is a thankless task. Situations where "prosecutorial passions" arise in lawyers who were former prosecutors—who, while defending defendants, deliver speeches that are accusatory in content—are common. This is a professional deformation of consciousness that is not so easy to correct. It's commendable that you're trying to put on a human mask. And to touch on specifics.

You know how to write well and intelligently about situations and puppeteers, about motives and minor inconsistencies. If only you would direct your skill to describing situations with saves, when both I and Sticky asked you, and you either joked it off or got personal, attributing delusional motives—it gave the impression that it was due to a lack of adequate explanations.

That's just how it turned out. Attempts at dialogue instantly turned into obstruction. And the form of your address to me in ICQ did not at all contribute to resolving the situation.
Minor inconsistencies are the essence of any problems! They are precisely what indicate the direction of the source. Because of inconsistencies, trains go off the tracks, gas pipelines explode. And this is not a banal exaggeration. And the emphasis shouldn't be on the word minor. Any inconsistency is the basis for doubt.
And when you and Sticky asked me, I naturally wasn't just unprepared to reconstruct any kind of picture; I wasn't going to discuss anything at all. Just like any person who is confronted with empty accusations, I bristled.
There is a time for everything.

Now about the saves once more (I initially evaluated them from a defensive standpoint, I think that will be evident).

Especially since I only went through two of them, without all the nuances that weren't taken into account.

1. Pandora's Box with Crag Hack.
I immediately told Black and Sticky that it's a weak argument for cheating, even without your explanations. I didn't calculate your MP reserve for breaking in the town (which can be done as part of the analysis for explanations; I won't believe you don't know how to count MP), but if they aren't enough for your game plans, the most important thing, given the guard and experience from Jebus games, is that experience there is rarely good. So leaving it for a noob isn't a crime. Although 5K exp for the main hero in the first week is still important.

It would have been a crime against myself if I hadn't taken the extra town of Mish on day 117 because of taking this Pandora's Box. In that situation, I wouldn't have gone for a Pandora's Box worth even 10k with Crag Hack.

2. Breaking into a Dungeon with Tazar and taking the Dragon Utopia is a game situation.

What's more unclear is what Rebbe was doing until day 132 on that patch of the map and why his development was so poor compared to his moves later...

On day 127, Tazar entered that zone; there was an extra Manticore town, a Naga Bank, a Stable (just in time for the start of the new week), and then later a sword +3 and a couple of Crypts with chests were found there. So I had to clear all that out. There was a big money crunch from the very start of the game. And I also needed to level up to advance the tactic for the battle with the Wizards (who were guarding the Library). The distance from my starting town to even the nearest Dungeon and to the relay points was quite large, there was no money, and it wasn't clear where to get any.

4. Pandora's Boxes with Ivor.
And again Pandora's Boxes.. This frequency of coincidences is already alarming,...

Coincidences of what? And what frequency should that be?

"Where's it going to go?" (quote) said the player who doesn't throw 100–200 MP to the wind. And here, leaving a Pandora's Box to pick it up later from the Necropolis is a loss of over 1000 MP.

And who, what players, that you often manage to encounter, generally waste MP left and right? So you're just twisting things.
A Pandora's Box guarded by only 20 Dendroids is far less attractive to me than a guaranteed refill of mana to maximum and buying a spell book for Ivor with Slow, who has been an expert in Earth magic for a long time but can't take advantage of such superiority. Especially since the Sword of Justice on the dirt behind the Gray Dwarves with several Hives had been bothering me for a long time. And the trip itself with the Pandora's Boxes, with expert Slow, could have been much more promising.

Besides, if the plan was to buy the book and then come back for the Pandora's Box, then you should have taken both with the book. But as it was, with experience we take it without the book, and with magic we leave it for later.

But what if... What if I had said that I expected magic of at least level 4 in the second Pandora's Box, and therefore - go for the book and level up - would that be plausible? And even such a possibility has a right to exist, albeit a naive one. But in the second game with Pit (where a restart happened upon meeting), my Ivor took an empty Pandora's Box. But there's still nothing to compare across two or three facts. Explanations won't describe the whole picture. Some details are completely forgotten, and sometimes they can turn out to be important. And if you've gotten it into your head that the Pandora's Box wasn't taken because it would turn out to be empty, that, rather, points to your already determined line of reasoning.

The player also cited a time crunch for calculating MP. Actually, the turn at 10 minutes isn't complicated. The plan to land in the Necro village was there from the start. Measuring Riordan's MP to the teleport, from the teleport cell to the village, as well as Ivor's from the 2nd Pandora's Box to the teleport - that's not tricky and is even simple for a player of his level. I had 85 MP left after taking the Pandora's Box and running to the Castle.
Yes - not a lot, yes it's risky (and who doesn't take risks?), but it's not logical and personally, to put it mildly, I simply didn't believe it here, no matter how hard I tried.

Making a decision under time pressure meant dealing with a lack of time to make the decision, not to think it over. And the main time I spent was on exchanging resources and buying up troops down to the last copper, taking into account resources that could be added on the new day.
And the risk with the "all or nothing" dilemma does exist. But in this case, the dilemma took the form of "not even this and nothing" - that is, an adventure.

... And then the question arose: wouldn't it be simpler not to spend a bunch of money dumping resources, fight the Basilisks, take the Pandora's Box, buy the book in the Necropolis, and return with magic and mana for the Pandora's Box closer to the teleport. But that's just if you logically follow from the plans....

Very logical, especially if you also know, for instance, the number of Basilisks. In general, I expected there would be a little over 50 of them, but there were 81. And the battle was far from easy. And the question is, why didn't I do it the simpler way?
Maybe it would have been simpler to capture the Necro town and hole up in it? And then calmly destroy everyone.

5. Dragon Utopia with Dwarf on 8mm6a.
...The goal was to take the Orange computer. And also to find a foothold for a jump, taking a stroll behind the respawn, so as not to approach the computer within a 1-day distance, to avoid scaring it off and driving it into the castle :smile48:

Precisely on day 212, I didn't intend to go for the Orange computer, but I kept in mind that it was nearby, and if possible, I would capture it. I finally decided on this choice after taking the Crypt, since the Orange respawn was right under my nose.

Where Dwarf can jump



Further assessment of the situation



Further route

Dwarf, having Dimension Door and Air Scout, sees where to head (in theory) - in the underground to the right of his Necropolis with an Observatory, a bunch of stars.

A similar zone with stars, smaller but much closer and safer, is located to the right of the central Dungeon in the underground - as an addition. A bunch of stars on this template is not a bunch of stars on a random small map. I wasn't heading for the Necro zone; it was revealed by the opponent (and also by a Beacon), and it was unsafe to enter there at that moment - besides, the opponent had prepared a landing party in the Conflux village, and from there - all paths further. And I didn't want to expose myself unnecessarily. Clashes were constant, there was plenty of chaos. Towns were often traded. Plans weren't implemented, logic was unclear. Just before this day 212, Dwarf used Dimension Door twice (with basic Air magic), and the second jump was accidental - after trying it on and attempting to cancel, the cancel failed - and he ended up somewhere unclear, depriving himself of a bunch of moves for the new day... By the way, this fact later turned out to be the main reason for annulling the game result. Although they could have awarded a loss.

But on day 212, he goes to take a Crypt with the main hero :smile09:, having 165 mana and 11 knowledge, he goes for the well, and from there you can see a Hive and a Conservatory trio.

The well is an opportunity to keep one's mobility in the form of Dimension Door and Fly in good shape. And a wider radius of territory I revealed / dark territory for the opponent (the opponent himself already revealed the vision radius from the teleport) near a very important teleport (linking my two Dungeons) provides opportunities for my future covert maneuvers. And money... I needed it - and there it was, nearby.

Whereas the short path to the Orange computer is visible through the view from the middle (territorially) Dungeon through the Naga Bank and the Conservatory (which is better than the Crypt).

The short path compared to what? You've confused something. The exact location of the Orange town is visible through View Earth (although I already doubt you even use this spell)

Shakti is at a distance of 3500 MP from the middle Dungeon in the east-southeast direction.



From the middle Dungeon, it's very far to the Orange town, much farther than from the top one. Moreover, if you go through the Naga Bank and Conservatory, you face the problem of crossing a wide mountain range, promising large losses of movement, and also an excessive loss of mana. And besides, Dwarf at that time was at a great distance from the middle Dungeon (3500 MP) in precisely the direction opposite to the Orange town. In short, there's a complete absurdity in your reasoning. Though, to prevent the situation from falling under the refrain

But there is no Dragon Utopia on that path.

, then, probably, I should have made such a ridiculous anti-map-hacker move.
I could have given an even stronger argument - luck. You can't argue against that. But it is what it is. Although there was still an element of luck.
And, by the way. I have been playing Heroes with the HD-mod with the option Fix gameplay Bugs = 1 since its inception.

We were just analyzing a Chinese player's save from Neo. Unfortunately, there's a 1% chance that he played fairly with the Goomungul.

What nonsense he wrote. How could he have guessed that the opponent would break the Goomungul on turn 126 when he hadn't even seen it? He lost and suddenly took a Consul? Nonsense. He didn't take boots because he knew the opponent had Goomungul. He refused Earth to level up Logu? He realized what he said himself >< In short, I don't know why you're trying to discredit him.

Added 17 minutes later

I'll add my own reasoning to the discussion.

Too many excuses. An honest person would have ignored the trolls long ago. That's my opinion.

He wrote such nonsense. How could he assume that he would break the Grand Order on turn 126 when he hadn't even seen it? He lost and suddenly took the Consul? Nonsense. He didn't take the Boots because he knew the opponent had Grand Order. He refused Earth to level up his Logu? He realized what he said. In general, I don't know why you're trying to discredit him.

Really? I thought he was on the side of the prosecution. :rolleyes:
I was just pointing out the possible excuses of the Chinese player. That 1% is just based on a hunch, when he saw that Vitaly was taking the Breastplate against the Grand Order.

That 1% is exactly what gave him the intuition when he saw that Vitaly was taking the armor before the Guardian.

Nah, it's funny) If you don't know what the Guardian is, you'd think the opponent would break it. Especially since you can break the magic armor with 5 imps and some units, or with the Guardian... I think if he had said something about it, he would have said it was a total LOL. And if he had said he was going to attack me, not knowing what the Guardian is... he'd have 5 fire elementals and GG. Plus, if he breaks with growth, he won't attack me on turn 131, and he doesn't know what my army is, because I have a double city. A confident move to the grass is just insane... I have 3 cities, and he has... First, I took my double city, and then, if he checks the tavern, I can calmly take the second city on the grass where he was running. So, he could have run calmly if he only knew that I wouldn't intercept him there. And it didn't look like a rush anyway.