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#46
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Nargott
You don't understand.
I gave you specific examples from in-game situations. The choice is between a town hall or developing a gold mine. Naturally, the town hall, because it's cheaper. The choice is between a warehouse or developing a resource mine for the same resource. Naturally, the warehouse, because it's cheaper. Do you understand what I'm getting at?
The Town Hall branch – the Capitol is unique in itself, just like the Capitol itself, because you can't build another branch like it, and you can't build another Capitol either ;)
And what you're saying is something else entirely.
Nargott

After the first week, an Elf can perfectly well manage with regular wood production, so there's no need to overpay for it.

Added 6 minutes later
I calculated that an Elf needs only 12 more wood to fully build everything compared to, for example, a Human castle. And wood isn't exactly in short supply there. So, is it worth paying 7500 for those 12 wood?
Are you resorting to relativity? Instead, calculate how much will be lacking during normal castle construction, without comparing it to any race. That will be more accurate. Humans sometimes lack stone, and less often, wood.
I'll repeat myself, but try to put it in other words:
Upgrading mines shouldn't become the norm. Have you even played on maps from IRMG? What's the point of uniqueness then?
Everyone builds a Capitol. In this regard, it's not unique, even though it's unique for the player as the only building.
For small maps, 5000 will be optimal; for large maps, even 10,000 will be too little. Don't forget about the conversion, which gives you a chance to build a second castle ;). The average will definitely not be around 5000, and this is also a plus to what I said.
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Путешествие , Условие крови , Рука судьбы.Часть 1: В поход , Рука судьбы.Часть 2: Отчаянье , Рука судьбы.Часть 3: Восхождение , Стойкость
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#47
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Dyrman
The Town Hall - Capitol branch is unique in itself, just like the Capitol itself, because you can't build another branch like that, nor another Capitol ;)
And what you're saying is something else entirely.
How can you not build it - another town? Forget about the Capitol and its uniqueness, we're talking about the Town Hall now.
Dyrman
I'll repeat myself, but try to put it in other words:
Upgrading mines shouldn't become the norm.
And it won't, with prices at 5000. Because, as a rule, I rarely even build a warehouse.
Have you even played on IRMG maps? For small maps, 5000 will be optimal, and even 10,000 will be too little for large maps.
If you're balancing for a long game with a payback period of 7 days, then you should also increase the prices for the Capitol branch and the warehouse. Right now, the Town Hall and even the warehouse are primary, while mines are secondary.
Don't forget about conversion, which gives you a chance to build a second Castle ;)
The average will definitely not be around 5000, and this is also a plus to what I said.
I don't know how you play, but I always build a second Castle, using the surplus after the first one, without any extra conversions.

Added 1 minute ago
For small maps, 5000 will be optimal.
What do you have in G5 on IRMG for small maps, because, for example, in G3, I don't even bother with the Town Hall and the City Hall on small maps, due to their unprofitability.

Added 31 minutes ago
Calculate how much will be missing with a normal Castle build, without comparing it to any race. That will be more accurate. Humans also sometimes lack stone, and less often wood.
Why without comparison? For humans, in the vast majority of cases, I haven't encountered a shortage; and the cases where it was, are offset by cases where there was an excess of wood. Therefore, for elves, in most cases, +12 to wood will be enough, the rest is surplus for exchange.

However, I have presented all the arguments, so I'm ending the discussion. It's up to you to leave it at 7500 or not. In my opinion, such prices are an oddity, even more so than a warehouse.

Added 4 minutes ago
Another question, how are mines upgraded? Does it require a visiting hero, or is it a global spell?
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition.
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#48
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Nargott
How can you not build it, but build another town instead? Forget about the Capitol and its uniqueness; we're talking about the Town Hall now.
I'm talking about one thing, and he's talking about another :D
Nargott

If you're balancing for a long game with a 7-day payback period, then you should also increase the prices for the Capitol and the Warehouse. Right now, it turns out that the Town Hall and even the Warehouse are more important than the mines.
Oh, you're killing me. Mines are not an alternative to buildings in the castle!
Nargott

What about small maps in G5 on IRMG? For example, in G3, I don't even bother with the Town Hall and the City Hall on small maps because they're not worth it.
Small maps are not made for IRMG!
Nargott

Why without comparison? For humans, I almost never encounter a shortage; and the cases where there was a shortage are offset by cases where there was an excess of wood. Therefore, for elves, +12 to wood will be enough in most cases, and the rest can be exchanged.
You want to have everything right away without any costs? In order for something to increase, something must decrease! 5000 is too little. Even for a hero, it's too little!
Nargott

It's up to you whether to leave it at 7500 or not. In my opinion, such prices are more exotic than the Warehouse.
In the updated version, you'll also need stone and wood. Or a lot of one thing! Otherwise, it's illogical that no materials are used. Or I'll go back to the 5000+5+5 scheme. But that's too little... If necessary, I can make a version for small maps as well.
Nargott

Another question: how are mines upgraded? Does it require a visiting hero, or is it a global spell?
Yes, it does. There are plenty of bugs these days.
Моды для HeroesV:
NHF 0.90 : NHF - группа в VK

Карты для HeroesV:
Путешествие , Условие крови , Рука судьбы.Часть 1: В поход , Рука судьбы.Часть 2: Отчаянье , Рука судьбы.Часть 3: Восхождение , Стойкость
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#49
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Want to have everything right away without any effort? For something to increase, something else must decrease! 5000 is too little. Even for a hero, it's not enough!
Indeed, it's a pittance. With these resources, you can buy a hundred or so level 1 units, but that's insignificant when they offer us a couple of wood per day instead!
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition.
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Автор Асимметричных шахмат
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#50
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Nargott
Indeed, it's a pittance. With these resources, you can buy a hundred or so level 1 units, but that's insignificant when we're offered only a couple of wood per day instead!
The problem here is the universality (I want to create for Heroes of Might and Magic, and you're suggesting something for the game you play). For Heroes of Might and Magic, the price is quite reasonable (play such maps ;) , sometimes there's a catastrophic shortage of one resource), because those maps start with Hugo and are rich in resources. But for each map, the price should be different in principle. It's all relative. Maybe switch from gold and create a different price dependency? For example, use other resources or something else?
Моды для HeroesV:
NHF 0.90 : NHF - группа в VK

Карты для HeroesV:
Путешествие , Условие крови , Рука судьбы.Часть 1: В поход , Рука судьбы.Часть 2: Отчаянье , Рука судьбы.Часть 3: Восхождение , Стойкость
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#51
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Dyrman
The problem here is the universality (I want to create something for Might and Magic, and you're suggesting something for the game you play). For Might and Magic, the price is quite reasonable (try playing with such maps; sometimes, there's a catastrophic shortage of one resource), because the maps start with Hugo, and they are rich in resources. But, in principle, the price for each map should be different. It's all relative. Maybe we should switch from gold and create a different price dependency? For example, use other resources or something else?

As I understand it, players should be "so rich they don't know what to do with their money" to afford mine upgrades for 7500. Essentially, my suggestion, specifically for Might and Magic, is to increase the cost of building a castle (including the Capitol branch) or reduce the reward from treasure chambers (and lower the price of mine upgrades).

Right now, the ability to upgrade mines seems like just a way to spend excess resources, because, given even a small choice of where to spend them, the upgrade can't compete with buildings or units.

In my opinion, if a player accumulates excess resources in their strategy (especially gold), it means either they are developing incorrectly, or the balance is off. And this should be addressed not by finding a way to get rid of the excess gold, but by ensuring that there simply isn't any excess in the first place.

Normally, in a situation where I lack a couple of resources at the right moment, I'll exchange them on the market, and gold will be the last resort. Therefore, in my opinion, developing mines is less effective than using the market. In a situation where many resources are needed, you can reluctantly build a warehouse in advance, but often it's easier to buy extra troops with those resources and seize the necessary resource by force.
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition.
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Автор Асимметричных шахмат
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#52
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Nargott
As I understand it, players should be "rolling in wealth" to afford mine upgrades costing 7500. My suggestion, specifically for the IRMG, is to either increase the cost of building a castle (including the Capitol branch) or reduce the reward from treasure chests (and lower the price of mine upgrades).
I understand that you want to see the upgrade as an alternative to a castle, but the upgrade is more of a complement than an alternative. At least because not all mines have an alternative. And with this version, there won't be any "sacrifice." A rare, valuable resource should be rare, and as a result of the cheap upgrade, we will get all resources being equal, which already resembles a "six" (referring to a balanced, but uninteresting, state). Again, you are trying to solve the problem through "nerfing" (from the word "pawn"). Well, yes, it's easier to balance the game with that logic, but why do it when diversity is lost? Selling resources on the market is expensive for a reason – to prevent resources from being equalized.
Nargott

Normally, in a situation where I lack a couple of resources, at the right moment, I will exchange them on the market, and gold will be my last resort. Therefore, in my opinion, mine development is inferior to the market.
That's why I suggested switching the upgrade to other resources so that it doesn't affect the amount of meat available for purchase. Although, to get through, sometimes only 3-4 types of creatures are bought, which is enough.
Моды для HeroesV:
NHF 0.90 : NHF - группа в VK

Карты для HeroesV:
Путешествие , Условие крови , Рука судьбы.Часть 1: В поход , Рука судьбы.Часть 2: Отчаянье , Рука судьбы.Часть 3: Восхождение , Стойкость
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#54
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Dyrman
The high cost of selling resources on the market is intended to prevent resources from becoming equivalent to each other ;)
That's why I suggested shifting the upgrade to other resources, so it wouldn't affect the amount of meat available for purchase. Although, for a breakthrough, only 3-4 types of creatures are sometimes bought, which is enough.
Because your rate (7500) is even less profitable than what the market and warehouse offer. The point is to make it equal to the market, i.e., roughly speaking, to make mine development analogous to a long-term market (a combination of exchange and income).

In general, to be honest, I'm starting to seriously doubt the feasibility of upgrading mines. As a rule, only a rare, standard resource is in acute shortage, and this problem is solved by the warehouse. The exception is perhaps only the elves (wood). A non-acute shortage can be solved by the market, practically without any gold investment. Perhaps only upgrading the gold mine can play an important role, and even then only as a supplement to the municipal branch (i.e., due to the price, it's not the primary factor).

Added 3 minutes later
That's why I suggested shifting the upgrade to other resources, so it wouldn't affect the amount of meat available for purchase. Although, for a breakthrough, only 3-4 types of creatures are sometimes bought, which is enough.
It doesn't solve the problem of resource efficiency, but it does allow you to reduce the burden on gold and increase the use of surplus resources. Therefore, I support this. The other question is whether upgrading a mine for a specific resource will be worthwhile.
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition.
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#55
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Rainer
I can't download it, could you please upload it to the message?
It can't be uploaded to the message because it's too large. I'll upload a new version soon, maybe you can download it then.
Моды для HeroesV:
NHF 0.90 : NHF - группа в VK

Карты для HeroesV:
Путешествие , Условие крови , Рука судьбы.Часть 1: В поход , Рука судьбы.Часть 2: Отчаянье , Рука судьбы.Часть 3: Восхождение , Стойкость
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#56
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Dyrman
I won't upload it in a message because it's too large. I'll upload a new version soon, maybe you'll be able to download it then.
Thanks, because people are telling me "the file is outdated" or "unavailable," but I still want to take a look. ;)
I would be very grateful...
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#57
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Nargott

It doesn't solve the problem of resource allocation efficiency, but it does allow you to reduce the gold expenditure and increase the surplus of other resources. Therefore, I support this idea. Another question is whether upgrading a mine for a specific resource will be worthwhile.
Here's a suggestion:
- Mine upgrades will only be available after building a warehouse, so the upgrade will cost less (1000 gold, 5 wood, and 5 stone);
- Heroes can only upgrade mines if they are level 10 or higher;
- A new perk could be created that allows for a free upgrade.
....
In my opinion, the first option is quite reasonable.
Моды для HeroesV:
NHF 0.90 : NHF - группа в VK

Карты для HeroesV:
Путешествие , Условие крови , Рука судьбы.Часть 1: В поход , Рука судьбы.Часть 2: Отчаянье , Рука судьбы.Часть 3: Восхождение , Стойкость
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#58
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Making version 1.0.5a: - Identified and fixed 6 bugs (mainly the dungeon pit, the troop gathering perk, and the resource improvement for the second player was adjusted to match the game's intended behavior [if the first player captures the second player's mines, the second player should still receive the resource, as the increase is intended for all players from the beginning of the first player's turn - I didn't even know that...]); - For now, the cost of mine upgrades has been reduced to 5600; I'm considering adding an additional cost in the form of 5 or 3 rare resources for the race, to prevent excessive upgrades; - Each built warehouse reduces the cost of mine upgrades by half (rounded up); - The computer will no longer receive the mine upgrade window; - The updated IRMG (Improved Random Map Generator) has been adapted for the mod; - Dodge has been removed from all dwarven priests (neutral creatures were being used too much when they shouldn't be); - The warehouse now costs 1000 gold, 10 stone, and 5 wood; - When capturing dwellings on the map, they can now be reconverted for your race for only 500 gold; - The dwarven tower has been restored to its previous cost, as it is no longer banned in tournaments, as it was before; - Other minor changes. In general, I'm shifting the cost from gold to other resources, as I intended. You can see that the upgrade cost with one warehouse is only 2800 gold, with two it's 1400, and so on..., but still the same 5 rare resources (possibly reduced to 3). I'm waiting for feedback on these changes, whether they are appropriate (without trying them out yet :)). I also want to make improvements to mills, secret dungeons for crypts (like the well in Heroes of Might and Magic III, when you try to fish). And also add new buildings with new possibilities ;)

P.S. I plan to release it today or tomorrow. So, if there are any small suggestions, I might be able to include them in the mod ;)
Моды для HeroesV:
NHF 0.90 : NHF - группа в VK

Карты для HeroesV:
Путешествие , Условие крови , Рука судьбы.Часть 1: В поход , Рука судьбы.Часть 2: Отчаянье , Рука судьбы.Часть 3: Восхождение , Стойкость
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#59
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If the first player captures the second player's mines, the second player should still receive the resource, as intended by the game, because the increase applies to all players from the beginning of the first player's turn. I didn't even know that.
I didn't know that either, thanks for the information.
For now, the price of upgrading mines has been reduced to 5600. I'm considering adding an additional cost in the form of 5 or 3 rare resources for the race, so that players don't upgrade mines indiscriminately.
It's best to test it first, and then, based on the results, make plans to increase the price, in my opinion.
Each built warehouse reduces the cost of upgrading mines by half (rounded up).
In this context, the price of mine development should definitely be increased, up to 10,000 gold. Although, personally, I'm against such a change (the role of warehouses changes, and potentially in an unbalanced way – it could really lead to mass upgrades).
Removed evasion from all dwarven priests (neutral creatures were annoying to use it when they shouldn't).
It should be banned for the AI altogether, in my opinion (until the AI bug is fixed). And prevent it from being used for fleeing, if possible. After a player casts mass evasion, the AI always flees, as far as I remember.
The warehouse now costs 1000 gold, 10 stone, and 5 wood.
So, you decided to move away from the market rate and make the main resource more accessible (and the warehouse – a must-have)?
When capturing dwellings on the map, you can now convert them for your race for only 500 gold.
I am strongly against such a simplification of the game in the style of G6, and for so little (i.e., without a choice). Is a lack of homogeneous units not enough? It completely destroys the atmosphere.
Returned the old cost to the dwarven tower, as it is no longer banned in tournaments, as it was before.
Praise Urgash, they came to their senses. But I would probably increase the price slightly.
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition.
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In reply to Nargott
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#60
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Nargott

And in the context of this particular game, the price for developing mines should definitely be increased, up to 10,000 gold. Although, personally, I'm against such a change (the role of warehouses changes, and potentially in an imbalanced way - it could really lead to mass upgrades).

So, you decided to move away from the market rate and make the core resource universally accessible (and the warehouse mandatory)?
I'll leave the warehouse as it is. 5000 on the hero is still quite a lot, but that's for regular maps. For now, I won't touch the buildings in the city much, otherwise it will turn into a chain reaction, and I'll have to rework everything... As they say, I'll release it, we'll try it out, and then we'll decide what to do next.
Nargott

I am strongly against such a simplification of the game in the style of Heroes 6, and even for a small price (i.e., without a choice). Is a small amount of uniform meat not enough? It completely kills the atmosphere.
Yes, I thought about it, and I would actually make it free. But there's no point in that. Usually, there are already two native dwellings near the hero, and by the time you reach the opponent, it won't really affect the game, but you can use it to carry out sabotage ;)
Nargott

Thank the Urgash, you came to your senses. But I would raise the price slightly, probably.
Demon worshiper:)
Моды для HeroesV:
NHF 0.90 : NHF - группа в VK

Карты для HeroesV:
Путешествие , Условие крови , Рука судьбы.Часть 1: В поход , Рука судьбы.Часть 2: Отчаянье , Рука судьбы.Часть 3: Восхождение , Стойкость
Абсолютная власть , Иду на Вы! , Корона Ургаша , На задворках
Мир надо уничтожить... Чтобы создать свой...