Let's vote on the "Time Limit" option for different map templates. — Tournament Committee

Registered: 3/9/2008

Posts: 2,468

#1 4/8/2012 7:37 PM UTC

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In our seasonal rules, the turn time is defined as 6 minutes for the 2SM4d(3) and Jebus Cross maps, and 8 minutes for the latter. For all other maps, the default time limit is 6 minutes, as it is for standard maps. Recently, many players have complained about the lack of time. Since most of our tournaments and games on "our field" in multiplayer follow the seasonal rules, let's find out which time limit our players prefer. We'll vote, and I'll incorporate the results into the rules for the summer season. For the 2SM4d and Anarchy map families (L+U size without computers), we could add 2 minutes. In the vote, I suggest choosing between 6 and 8 minutes. For the balance and Panic map families, choose between 6 and 8 minutes. Mini-Nostalgia (L+U with computers) - 6 or 8 minutes? In the Jebus Cross tournament, many players needed 10 minutes - should we increase it in the seasonal rules? For all XL+U maps with computers (8mm6/8mm6a, 6LM10/6LM10a, 8ХМ12/8ХМ12а, 8xm8/8xm8а, Spider, Nostalgia), I suggest choosing from three options - 6, 8, or 10 minutes. I will summarize the results as follows. For those maps where two options are offered, the option with the most votes will be chosen. If the number of votes is equal, we will leave it as it was before. For XL+U maps with computers, three options are offered. I will calculate the preferred time using the following formula: (6 min x N6 + 8 min x N8 + 10 min x N10) / (N6 + N8 + N10), where N is the number of votes for a specific time. If we get 7 minutes or less, we will leave it at 6 minutes. If we get more than 7 minutes, but less than or equal to 9 minutes, we will write 8 minutes in the rules. If the average is more than 9 minutes, we will make it 10 minutes in the seasonal rules. We will also use this vote in the "FB-6" tournament. For this tournament, I will only consider the votes of the players who participate in a specific stage.

Registered: 11/23/2007

Posts: 1,231

#2 4/10/2012 11:40 AM UTC

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Pete, there used to be a standard of 4 minutes... you don't even consider it now (it's not in the poll options).
I would vote for 2 minutes.

Дипломатия - искусство говорить собаке "хорошая собачка" до тех пор пока не найдешь подходящую палку.

In reply to Captain

Registered: 3/9/2008

Posts: 2,468

#3 4/10/2012 12:08 PM UTC

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Captain

Pete, there used to be a 4-minute standard... you don't even consider it now (it's not in the poll options).

Well, there was a vote a few years ago between 4 and 6 minutes. They decided to switch to 6. What's the point of doing it again? Now there's a trend towards increasing the time. In tournaments, organizers specifically conduct polls, look at Jebus, for example. I also had to adjust in MP.
The point of the poll is to simplify the work of the organizers and create common rules.
And you can always agree on a shorter time in a season, especially since the limit is the same for both players ;)
The time limit also has an impact on the game's tactics; if there is little time, the whole game will be structured differently.

Yesterday, I played a balanced CM with a 10-minute limit. In the third week, there wasn't enough time - 7 cities, 2 mammoths, a lot of battles, I was moving troops and artifacts across the map. On my turn, I wasn't thinking, I was just trying to do what I had planned on the opponent's turn.

In reply to Pit for LM

Registered: 11/23/2007

Posts: 1,231

#4 4/10/2012 12:55 PM UTC

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Pit for LM

You can always agree on a shorter time in a season game, especially since the limit is the same for both players ;)

The same is true in reverse - you can always agree on a longer time :)
On Jebus Cross you need 2 minutes, on Balance -1 min.
I'm not joking.
Both you and your opponent are on equal footing.
Of course, I agree that on Jebus Cross, to play properly, you need at least 6-8 minutes. BUT! As Preds stated today in a nearby thread, Jebus Cross is grinding. It's clear why...
And imagine, 10 minutes per turn, time doesn't run during battles, but on average you add just as much... so a turn is 20 minutes. Your opponent has the same. So 1 day = 40 minutes. One week = 4.5 hours, a game lasts at least 2 weeks = 9 hours of your life wasted on what?
What a waste of time...

Дипломатия - искусство говорить собаке "хорошая собачка" до тех пор пока не найдешь подходящую палку.

In reply to Captain

Registered: 3/9/2008

Posts: 2,468

#5 4/10/2012 1:45 PM UTC

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Captain

The same is true in reverse - you can always agree on more time :)

I'm talking about tournaments, and there you can't negotiate...

Captain

And imagine, 10 minutes per turn, time doesn't count in battles, but on average it takes another 10 minutes... so a turn takes 20 minutes. The opponent has the same. Total: 1 day = 40 minutes. A week = 4.5 hours, a game lasts at least 2 weeks = 9 hours of life spent on what?
It's a waste of time...

Then the best solution is not to play...
If you are serving a duty or punishment, then, of course, the faster, the better...
If you are interested in the result, you can flip a coin... even faster...
If you are interested in the process and want to achieve the maximum and get the most out of the situation, then you need to increase the time limit... However, this sometimes requires you to think, which can be very difficult...

Registered: 8/31/2010

Posts: 1,963

#6 4/10/2012 2:18 PM UTC

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On Jebus Cross you need 2 minutes, on Balance -1 min
Not joking.

Tough gamer :D

МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...

In reply to Captain

Registered: 10/11/2010

Posts: 2,287

#7 4/10/2012 2:21 PM UTC

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Captain

Of course, I agree that to play Jebus Cross properly, you need at least 6-8 minutes. BUT! As Preds stated today in the adjacent thread, Jebus Cross is a tryhard mode. It's clear why...
And imagine, 10 minutes per turn, battles don't take time, but on average add up to the same... so a turn is 20 minutes. The opponent has the same. So 1 day = 40 minutes. A week = 4.5 hours, a game at least 2 weeks = 9 hours of life spent on what?
A waste of time...

Hmm, I see it the opposite way))) I feel it's a waste to spend 3-4 hours purely on the game!!!

Often you don't manage to do everything you planned (while I conduct battles very quickly) + quick turn passing doesn't allow you to step away or switch to work... you have to stay tense all the time...

I enjoy squeezing everything possible out of a turn and accomplishing all my plans... while during the opponent's turn over 10-20 minutes, you can calmly think through a rough plan for the next turn + work on texts and necessary info!!! Mixing the useful with the pleasant:rolleyes:
So personally, I prefer and find it much more convenient when a turn lasts longer:smile02:

469326983

In reply to Scorpiona

Registered: 4/29/2007

Posts: 11,032

#8 4/10/2012 3:36 PM UTC

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Let's remember why the turn time was changed.
Initially, when I started, there were 4 minutes per turn.

Then, people stopped building the Capitol, started separating individual units, and even chains appeared :D, and they concluded that 4 minutes was not enough, and it should be 6. There were heated discussions, and many were against it. But in the end, 6 minutes were approved.

Later, the Jebus template became popular, and it couldn't be played in 6 minutes, so they started agreeing on 8 minutes. HL+U templates were also played in 8 minutes.

HD-mod appeared!!!

Here's the question. Why did the idea of playing all templates in 10 minutes appear??? :confused: It seems that everything has been done for a fast game, but people still don't have enough time. I understand that increasing the turn time has a positive effect on the quality of the game. But another problem arises: those who could play in one go now have to play with delays, and those who played in two goes have to stretch one game even more. Multiplying this by the number of participants and the number of rounds results in missed deadlines, participants dropping out, etc.

Increasing the time is good for a single game, but bad for a tournament. Democracy is good, but you can't indulge the participants in everything.

Registered: 8/31/2010

Posts: 1,963

#9 4/10/2012 4:34 PM UTC

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To Dirty_Player:

Let's remember why the turn timer was changed.
Initially, when I started, there were 4 minutes per turn.

Now, players don't start their turns when they used to.

Then, people stopped building Capitols, started focusing on single units, even unit chains appeared, and they concluded that 4 minutes was not enough, and it should be 6. There were heated discussions, and many were against it. But in the end, 6 minutes were approved.

Now, no new player, after reading some information, builds a Capitol, but instead tries to learn how to play with unit chains right away.

The HD mod appeared!!! The question is: why did the idea of playing all maps with a 10-minute timer arise?

The answer is obvious. When the mod was created, it was truly a breath of fresh air for players and helped them overcome the time constraints that existed – 6 minutes, during which they often had to rush and end their turn at the last moment. But around the same time, a new group of players started to progress rapidly (coming to HotA), people began to dedicate more time to the quality of their gameplay, and increasing the quality means not only accelerating thinking but also increasing the time spent making the right decision.
As practice shows, the saying "measure seven times, cut once" is a synonym for the saying "slow and steady wins the race" and applies to many players in Heroes.

Increasing the time is good for a single game, but bad for a tournament. Democracy is good, but you can't cater to the participants in everything.

I agree with that, and I'll even support it. Set any time you want, even 1 minute, but the trend is clear, and sooner or later, everyone will have to play with a 10-minute timer because quality ultimately prevails. I'm sure that most players are driven by a competitive spirit and the desire to win against their opponent, and to win, you need to think more and better.
You can, of course, say to learn to think faster, but the point is that not everyone wants to think faster, but everyone wants to play better

МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...

Registered: 1/31/2011

Posts: 609

#10 4/10/2012 5:45 PM UTC

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Of course, one could say, "Learn to think faster," but the point is that not everyone wants to think faster; everyone wants to play better.

As we know from a fundamental principle of philosophy, quantity transforms into quality. So, a time limit of 10 minutes per turn translates into a quality issue: a game lasting 9+ hours, leading to missed deadlines and disqualifications. Many high-level players play with a 6-minute time limit without using the HD mod and don't complain. And if we don't strive to find a balance between the time limit and the speed of thought, the trend of increasing the time limit will continue indefinitely, and eventually, everyone will play with no time limit, spending a month on each game. Moreover, we shouldn't forget that Heroes is just a game, and not everyone can dedicate all their free time to it.

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In reply to Ihtiandr

Registered: 2/22/2008

Posts: 1,588

#11 4/10/2012 6:28 PM UTC

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The timer has always been a stimulating factor for accelerating thinking and served as one of the measures of good gameplay: if a player manages to implement what they intended within the time limit, that's great; if not, they need to work on themselves (either learn to think faster, develop standard strategies, or click the mouse more quickly:D). Take Chaos League, for example – the standard timer is 4 minutes, and they only played XL+U, constantly with control from week 3, creating chains, and they still managed to do everything without any mods! Now there's a mod that increases the timer to 8 minutes, and they're complaining that it's not enough... You've become spoiled, gentlemen, and are pushing for equalization. Judging by the poll on L maps, many want 8 minutes... This is not an improvement in the quality of the game; it's a regression. Beginners can play with an unlimited timer to gain experience and learn how to play well, but when it comes to tournaments, the timer shouldn't be extended – the time is limited, and the fact that the timer forces players to show everything they are capable of in a limited time remains unchanged.

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In reply to Mizrael

Registered: 10/11/2010

Posts: 2,287

#12 4/10/2012 6:46 PM UTC

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Mizrael

The timer has always been a stimulating factor for accelerating thinking and served as one of the measures of good gameplay: can the player accomplish what they intended within the time limit – good, if not – work on yourself (either learn to think faster, or develop standards, or click the mouse faster:D).
But when it comes to tournaments, the timer shouldn't be extended – the deadlines are not flexible, and the fact that the timer forces players to demonstrate everything they are capable of in a limited time remains true.

Indeed, there's no arguing with that!!!:o

469326983

Registered: 11/23/2007

Posts: 1,231

#13 4/10/2012 7:14 PM UTC

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Lady Scorpion and R55 probably haven't played offline tournaments before; we went through the "school" with Darth, and as they say, "they're starting now, not when you were." :)
I recently played against a player who beats almost everyone in Versus... he plays on unlimited. Balance, 2nd week, he has Valya with a bunch of parameters, 65 Marks and 5 Grand Griffins, two Consorts on the reserve (2-4 and a tier 3), and I only have a standard Rampart army and 3 Angels. He surrendered, didn't dare to take Consorts on the 2nd turn...
And I saw his last moves... he moved each hero one cell at a time... slowly. You can see how his "brain is creaking" :)
IMHO, this is a mockery of the opponent, and as Ikhtiandr said, quality will turn into quantity.
We don't need that kind of gameplay (quote).

P.S. I don't have the HD mod and don't even know what speed boosts it gives compared to SOD and Lighter ;)
Just when you play 2v2 and after 1 minute of the game, you're already comfortably controlling eight heroes, then after 2 minutes... ;)

Дипломатия - искусство говорить собаке "хорошая собачка" до тех пор пока не найдешь подходящую палку.

In reply to R55Max

Registered: 11/14/2007

Posts: 1,494

#14 4/10/2012 7:29 PM UTC

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R55Max

...But around the same time, a new group of players started to make significant progress (appearing on Hv), and people began to dedicate more time to improving the quality of their gameplay. Increasing the quality means not only accelerating thinking but also increasing the time spent on making the right decision.
As practice shows, the saying "measure seven times, cut once" is a synonym for the saying "slow and steady wins the race" and applies to many players in Heroes.

I agree with that, and I'll support it. No matter how much time you take, even if it's just 1 minute, the trend is clear, and sooner or later, everyone will have to play with 10 minutes on the clock because quality ultimately prevails over everything else. I'm sure that most players are driven by a competitive spirit and the desire to win against their opponent, and to win, you need to think more and better.
You can, of course, say to learn to think faster, but the point is that not everyone wants to think faster, but everyone wants to play better.

— Why — "Ы"? Why — "Ы"?

— So that no one can guess.

— Idiot... Let it be — "Ы"

From your statement, it should be understood that in the past, newcomers paid very little attention to the quality of the game. Let me reveal a huge secret to you: Pit was also a newcomer once, and I'm not sure that anyone on Hv (specifically among the homegrown players) will be able to compete with him in terms of skill level in the near future - it seems that it happened to him naturally, over millions of years of evolution.

...increasing the quality means not only accelerating thinking but also increasing the time spent on making the right decision.

Long before your appearance on Hv, and even before you became familiar with Heroes, a wonderful method was invented: planning your actions while observing the opponent's moves - for example, you can familiarize yourself with Pit's report on his second game against DiP Mike in the World Championship, it's a very useful thing.
You can play Funky however you like, but in tournaments, all other things being equal, the player who has prepared more thoroughly should have an advantage, even if it's just taking a shower before the game, so that he doesn't get an itch on his forehead during his turn and doesn't get distracted for a couple of seconds. And if both players want to, they can always agree on unlimited time: in the World Championship, in the first round, I played against a Croatian, and in the second, against a Romanian - and in both cases, we played three games with unlimited time, and there were no complaints: I need to sleep, and he's wasting time.

And I can't help but agree with Captain: if you're having trouble with planning, play a couple of off-tournaments: if in random games, the first few days are often just reconnaissance, then in off-tournaments, you already have to make calculations for the end of the game. This clear dependence cannot be achieved in random games, but you will still practice building a plan for the game in advance, which is very useful.

PS There's one thing I can't understand: why Anarchy is put in the same category as smurfs - it's one of the most time-consuming templates, including because: "There is no spoon" - meaning there is no template.

Registered: 8/31/2010

Posts: 1,963

#15 4/10/2012 11:55 PM UTC

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I understand what I wrote and what it leads to, even without being lectured. Actually, I wasn't expressing my personal opinion, but rather describing what I observe and why I think it's happening.

Lady Scorpion and R55 probably never played offline tournaments; they didn't go through the school that Darthy and I went through, and as they say, "they're starting now, not when we did."

The reasons why a particular school of play succeeds or fails are not important in principle; you can argue about this endlessly, like "I studied in the Soviet Union, and now the schools are different." Yes, most of the new generation grew up watching streams, not playing offline, but there's no getting away from that, and it's a fact. And the further we go, the more of these players will appear, which is what I was talking about when I mentioned the trend, not what PReDS wrote about understanding what I said.
To PReDS:

From your statement, one should understand that in the past, newcomers paid very little attention to the quality of the game.

It follows that now, newcomers are different from noobs. Most of them come with some basic knowledge, based on watching replays, and they watch games with time limits of 8 or 10 minutes, and therefore they play the same way. I hope I explained it clearly. ;)

PS Just look at the voting results and you'll understand the trend. :)

МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...

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Preferred time limit for templates