Forum — Tournament Committee

R55Max

15 years ago

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Wicc

You must have missed the beginning of all these SoD vs. TE discussions, then SoD vs. WT. These arguments have been going on for many years, everything has been said many times, and positions have been defined.

The time to look for a compromise has passed; many are now stubborn out of principle and will not be able to bring themselves to admit that their opponent is right after all these arguments.

Therefore, the format of discussing this issue is practically pure mudslinging, aimed not at convincing the opponent, but at slandering them. It's a show for the outside audience.

You have chosen the SoD side, so you are being slandered by the WT people. If you had chosen the WT side, the SoD people would be slandering you. If you choose a middle ground, both sides will slander you.

That's why I believe that this dispute has no constructive solution. A merger, if it happens, will only occur in a couple of generations of players, when the current adherents step down.

Regarding personal grievances, I have no presumption of respectful treatment towards people. If a person has not demonstrated anything, then the attitude is neutral. And it can only become respectful for something that I evaluate positively.

So far, you have shown yourself in my eyes exclusively negatively - there is no visible gaming skill, the worldview differs from mine, the argumentation is clumsy, you defend SoD, you try to assert your rights without a corresponding reputation base, etc. All of this is a disadvantage, and the only advantage is the desire to communicate. That's not enough to bring you down to earth.

I don't see any attacks from the SoD people; on the contrary, in the arguments between a novice and an old-timer, it is difficult to support new ideas, but this is happening, thereby admitting the mistakes of the former ideology. And this plus is much more significant than the fact that people who don't know me judge me for various reasons (mainly based on the experience of others).

It all comes down to the unwillingness to communicate. It seems that this is deeply ingrained in your subconscious. There is a clear unwillingness to have anything in common with new people; you have closed yourself off from everything and everyone. These methods have long been ineffective. In our world at the moment, the ability to resolve problems through negotiation is valued. Maybe someday you will understand this.

Now your position is clear to me; there was no need to blame everything on the unwillingness of the SoD people, since you yourself are not ready.

In reply to R55Max

Dirty_Player

15 years ago

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R55Max

Cool:D. Did you think I have a special version of the game and that I don't know about certain options?

Apparently, yes, since you write phrases like this:

R55Max

Thus, in the game, the strongest heroes of the Castle faction simply lose a skill slot.

Nagan-4

15 years ago

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Regarding the math part, you seem to be projecting your own views onto people. Many come to Heroes after other esports games, and there, in terms of math, balance, and sporting dryness, things are far harsher than in HoMM.

In StarCraft, for example, a serious match in the early game is a clash of home preparations, build orders — development sequences calculated down to the second and the mineral. There's not much romance, immersion in the game atmosphere, etc. there; people come there precisely to cynically measure their e-peens.

I can't agree with that. The majority of Michurin-era Heroes players were esports athletes, primarily from Warcraft, StarCraft, Counter-Strike, and earlier Diablo.

So, Heroes and StarCraft cannot be measured with the same yardstick. RTS strategies are about speed and quick thinking. Fast and spectacular games. There's no admiring the game; everything is geared solely toward destroying your opponent. In general, it's for younger players; many people leave after 18-20 years of age. Only 3 races — uniquely different, nowhere else is there such a difference and such balance.
Esports is overseen by monsters on the level of Blizzard and Korean companies.

In Heroes, there are 9 factions, and not as different as in the old game — but actually quite similar. And making them even more similar is not advisable at all. People who play Heroes are much older, many over 30 and even over 40. There are hardcore pros, but they are an overwhelming minority. They are the ones measuring e-peens. The rest need immersion in the game and romance as well.

And no one on TV is going to watch a multi-hour game (I'm not talking about Mikhailo). In Moscow, I think they tried broadcasting the final of one of the tournaments on a screen; they wrote that people hanging out at the internet cafe seemed interested... but that's it.

So, the pros, alone without the main mass of Heroes players, are useless to anyone except their close ones.
Big companies won't be enticed by them, nor will sponsors. These discussions have been going on for years; they even said about TE that now all the sponsors would jump on it... but that won't happen.

Heroes will only stay alive thanks to the Heroes community, not sponsors.

Why did I butt into the Tribune? Simply because with the same arguments, several years ago on Bais they wrote about the inevitable victory of TE, the death of SoD, and a flourishing.
Well, go check out Bais now.

And on World, a system was slowly being built up, providing an influx of newcomers and stability to the Heroes movement. And now they're about to do the same thing on World that they did on Bais.

The same conditions for experiments — while there are many people, a lively growing forum responds. You guys are determined, you throw yourselves into battle, maybe you'll even win.
Alright, let's say you win; in a year or a year and a half, you'll do the same thing to World that you did to Bais. How will you look people in the eye? Or will you again find arguments about how you meant well, but it turned out as always?

In reply to Dirty_Player

R55Max

15 years ago

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Dirty_Player

Apparently so, since you write phrases like this:
Thus, in WT the strongest Castle heroes simply lose a skill slot for nothing.

This was kind of a hint at the imbalance regarding the player with neutrals, which would also be good to remove from the perspective of SoD or add morale back.(the imbalance of SoD is the balance of WT and the undead-ification of neutrals, which is why SoD cannot be WT, and WT cannot be SoD)

Albert@s

15 years ago

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We started with morality, but ended up... unable to agree on even the most basic things, and they're discussing some absurd plans – sponsors, promoting it to the masses, what are you talking about? This is the best game of 1997, wake up! Heroes will always be a niche thing; the game doesn't really need a large player base. Only true fans and devotees stay here. Who are you planning to attract? We should just be happy that there are still people who created the WT project for all Heroes fans, and they did it without our money or our time, and we should thank them immensely for that. Sod has its own merits, and we are grateful to him, but he has fallen hopelessly behind. The WT team, at least, is developing, discussing their problems, and looking for something new, but they're not forcing everyone to follow the same rules. The gameplay allows for many variations, and that's really the right way to go! What about the Sod team? Where are they, what are they doing, how are they? Respect each other, and if you're discussing something specific related to the game, don't go off-topic, don't talk about the impossible, and that will be a big step forward! We need to learn to communicate and negotiate, friends, and the people who will fulfill your wishes will not be a problem; there are still talented people around...

Nagan-4

15 years ago

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Okay, I’m leaving this thread.

Javdet

15 years ago

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2 Eric, R55Max
So much writing, but it's essentially about nothing.
As far as I can tell, R55Max is leaning towards creating another version of the game. First, it's unclear who would be given such an honor. Second, even if such a talented enthusiast is found, it's unclear what niche this product should be placed in? The niche for advanced gamers is already occupied by WOT, and a new development is unlikely to be able to compete with WOT. The niche of SOD? But that will no longer be the SOD that the vast majority of Heroes players around the world play; it will essentially be a different game, and therefore the same situation as with WOT will arise. Eric, there will be a similar problem for beginners in mastering this new SOD.
Maybe everything should stay as it is?

Wicc

15 years ago

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Children's games are a kind of preparation for adult life, a simulation of situations that may arise later. Plus, it's just training for muscles, coordination, the brain, social skills, etc. An adult game pursues roughly the same goal — simulating situations that they do not encounter in their activities but may encounter later, or are simply interesting. That is, the main initial goal of the game as a phenomenon is development and training.

Eric, I don't know if it's old age or just a life stance, but why do you think that the coddling a-la HeroesWorld of past years is something positive?

To develop in any way, you need competition, you need opponents and even enemies, you need struggle, you need a load on the brain, body, and self-esteem. That's why I'm not particularly interested in pleasant, polite, soulful groups; in them, the brain and body decay, and the self-importance flows into a zone of inadequacy. But the atmosphere of a fight of N bulldogs under the carpet is just what the doctor ordered.

For instance, if Alex calls me a noob and somehow argues it — that has a positive effect on my development, even if he is wrong. But bowing and scraping a-la Dubrovin only makes me depressed.

So, the path you see for World, I do not consider something positive. In my understanding, it's stagnation, a nursing home for the young-at-heart.

And stop badmouthing Bai; he is as alive as can be. A landing party, mostly from Bai, will soon visit you and, as usual, will outplay all competitors. As for them not writing on the forum, there's simply no need for it. The Community and the idea that binds it haven't gone anywhere; they are marching through the Heroes community, only developing, strengthening, and gaining adherents. Now that is a worthy path.

In reply to Wicc

Alessandro

15 years ago

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Here are some threads where people are arguing about whether WT or SOD is better. I don't see the point in arguing, as everyone will stick to their own opinion.
It's not just about the version, but about the idea.
For example, Outlaw created the "Allrandom" tournament on the WT version. Nomvan, who is rumored to be a big SOD fan, signed up.
On heroesportal, Mikhail Kregov created the "Bespredel-3" tournament on the default SOD version. Vik and other hardcore WT players signed up.

There's a separate story about the TE era. How many players played in WT tournaments on the default SOD version.
P.S. IMHO, WT is better, but everyone likes different settings (for some reason, SOD fans forget that you can play WT with neutral morality :). I would remove the health bonus for hero specialists. Almost all WT players already admit that Brogh is very strong.

KobRa_RR

15 years ago

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I’ve been saying this about Brongha for 3 years now, and Marusya with Inferno is also top-tier.))
Regarding morale, I’ll explain now: it was disabled because it doesn’t work according to the intended algorithm. It’s supposed to be 7.5% overall on the expert difficulty, but sometimes, in a battle with giants, they get morale twice in a row, even though there’s only one unit, while in the final battle, with +3 morale, it doesn’t trigger even once during the entire fight (2-3 rounds). That’s what heroic RNG is like. If the RNG were correct, many people would agree with me that it shouldn’t be banned.

In reply to KobRa_RR

R55Max

15 years ago

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KobRa_RR

I've been saying this about Brongha for 3 years now, and that Marusia with Inferno is top-tier.))
Regarding morale, I'll explain now: it was disabled because it doesn't work according to the intended algorithm. It's supposed to be 7.5% overall on Expert difficulty, but sometimes giants in a secluded area get morale twice in a row, even though there's only one unit, while in the final battle, with +3 morale, it doesn't trigger even once throughout the entire fight (2-3 rounds). That's what heroic RNG is like. If the RNG were correct, many would agree with me that it shouldn't be banned.

You've been saying this about him, and you've been right all along, it just depends on when it happens. 3 years is a long time, even a lifetime.

But that's not what I'm talking about. 7.5%. Hmm, is this a percentage or a mathematical calculation? What's the point of morale if it's going to be triggered at a calculated time? It's simply not morale anymore. Its property lies in the fact that it's unpredictable. Skill manifests in providing more advantages, and it's not a given that they will be decisive. If the morale percentage is calculated, then there's no point in playing with it. And the fact that you can play with morale in WotW is probably just a gift to the developers, which will eventually be removed

In reply to R55Max

Kash

15 years ago

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It’s understandable that morale is unpredictable (although Dirty can easily prove otherwise), but the variance is just too high, Kobra is right. And I don't care about distance and so on; if I can't take a tried-and-true Consul with dazed, super-moral griffons in some important Tournament, then what's the point?

But seriously, are you really not tired of it? Just calm down; SoD and VT are two different games for two types of people; play each one and stop complaining :)

ariputra

15 years ago

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There are no coincidences, neither in life nor in games – any coincidence is a pattern we haven’t understood yet. For example, a person is destined to experience joy and positive emotions from something at a certain time (e.g., winning a tournament, in a game, from capturing an Angel stack, on time, with planned or no losses). Since they are destined to receive positive emotions, and in this case, they will receive them if their given goal is achieved (capturing an Angel stack in the first week), it follows that the Angels will not put up a fight. Otherwise, the person would be upset, but their destiny dictates that they experience positive emotions at that specific time.