Connection ErrorBad RequestThis page went staleSession ExpiredSign in requiredForbiddenNot FoundToo Many RequestsServer ErrorBad GatewayService UnavailableGateway TimeoutHTTP Version Not Supported
Session Expired
Your session has expired. Please log in to continue.
Sign in required
You need an account to do that. Sign in or create one — it only takes a minute.
This page went stale
Your security token was rejected, usually because the page sat open too long or you signed in elsewhere. Nothing was saved. Reload the page and try again.
Request Failed
We encountered an issue while processing your request.
Please check your internet connection and try again.
Nevertheless, at the first sign of disagreement, crowds of players start shouting left and right that "SoD players are "idiots"" and "VT is the best." Especially the phrase "If you don't like grinding, play SoD, be a noob" doesn't elevate you, oh great VT players, above us, mere mortals. Yes, yes.
You don't need to read any further. NL
And further, if you haven't noticed, there's a signature :-D
Thinking for 25 minutes isn't an indicator of high skill. The same can be said in reverse.
Yeah, that's why I don't understand why individuals like Rimpel are trying to stir up another argument on this topic. It's clear to everyone that his opinion means nothing to those who have switched to VT. This, guys, is called trolling, and points should be deducted for it, if possible.
Well, now everything is clear. The goal is to avoid downsides and take the upsides, incorporating them into SOD. The game will be great.
The main downside of SOD is the lack of balance. How to fix it without affecting the gameplay – only Chuck Norris knows. Therefore, during the development of the TE, the question of preserving the SOD gameplay was not even raised.
But the problem here is not even in the gameplay and other things. Let's say a miracle happened, and some version that satisfies everyone in terms of gameplay emerged. And everyone started playing it, even Rebel. What will happen?
That's right – Rebel will start dominating everyone, simply because there are many players among the VT players who are more skilled than him. In terms of overall hero skill, not tied to the version. And since this hurts his ego, he will start inventing reasons why he shouldn't play this version, but instead go back to playing SOD with newbies.
As the unforgettable Professor Savelyev taught us, the human brain resists stress on its own, and one way to overcome this resistance is the desire to assert oneself, to show off, which leads to the release of certain hormones into the brain that stimulate its work, the famous enthusiasm. It is clear that these hormones are released mainly during successes (or the expectation of successes). And they make people addicted to situations where they once achieved success.
That is, the main plus of SOD is not the gameplay, but the community. The principle "it is better to be the first in the village than the second in Rome" has not been canceled. It is better to be the champion of uryupinskportal.net in SOD than to be on the sidelines of VT-MM6; there will be something to remember in old age, about what glorious times there were.
This position is perfectly understandable to me; I cannot say that I strongly criticize it; I myself have done this more than once. Everyone realizes themselves in their own way.
It's just that things need to be called by their names. And not invent excuses for yourself that I play SOD because it is better than VT. Because this is simply not true; VT, as a competitive game, surpasses it by a head in almost all respects.
This is exactly what I am arguing about, and not about people's right to choose a version.
Aren't you confusing it with TE-light? TE-light is unplayable and oversaturated with all sorts of glitches and bugs. But WT is the real deal!!! I think most people have already figured that out. But everyone would understand if people like Yura heard about the downsides that numOne wrote about on the previous page, and also worked on genuinely needed improvements, like mirror templates, instead of ruining the game by forcibly shoving players into new Dragon Fly Hives/Griffin Conservatories.
Yes, WT is better than SoD (for online play), but there are things that spoil this game (and unnecessary ones at that) and prevent it from gaining popularity among SoD players.
But I would understand everything if people like Yura heard about those downsides that numOne wrote about on the previous page
If I were a developer, I would have fixed everything long ago. Alas, asm is now like a dog in the manger.
and don't forcibly ruin the game by shoving people into new Dragon Fly Hives/Griffin Conservatories.
Get a grip. It's been half a year since anyone has been shoved into anything, symmetry and new conservatories are separate options from each other. And that they initially came as a single package — well, that's the right of the first night ...
But there are also several serious drawbacks: - Brogh - OMG, there are no words to describe it. - Inferno is now a SOD-style Necromancer, borderline OP, I'd say. - Quick Battle - a good feature for the late game, but it's not fair, IMHO; - Barbarians are strong, but they've become too one-dimensional, but that's a matter of taste, of course. And things that greatly simplify the game: Morale and GS - okay, tournaments and all that, you can agree; but: - Experience - this is idiocy, completely unnecessary, and the fact that people have gotten used to it doesn't excuse it; - Bank - even simpler, even more balanced, yeah; - Classes - if you remove Speedy, that's fine, but as it is, it's OP (hello, Brogh).
Here, I disagree with everything except Brogh. Quick Battle, is it a slightly controversial thing - but why not?
If I were a developer, I would have fixed everything a long time ago. Unfortunately, ASM is like a dog in the manger right now.
ASM is playing poker right now :) Maybe we can incentivize him financially?
Roma, quick play is debatable. Because people should be fighting, not bots. In some battles, it offers amazing losses that are unattainable manually. It should be introduced from week 3 to save time.
And why don't you agree with Inferno? Is taking 100 demons on week 2 already normal? Taking troops from the air is not right.
Why don't you agree with Inferno? Is getting 100 demons on week 2 normal? Summoning troops from thin air isn't right.
Readme number 2? On what templates, besides Jebus, do you have 100 demons on week 2? What does "normal" mean? 9 out of 10? I consistently play WT against Marius. I don't remember seeing 100 demons from an opponent on week 2, maybe the opponents are weak :cool:
P.S. The eternal debate on HW-SOD vs. WT.
Added after 13 minutes I don't understand where such data comes from, from leading players like Readme or Dirty. They themselves don't really play full WT, and there are no large numbers of reports where it would be written "I played as Inferno, and I easily won with 100+ demons on week 2." Maybe there were some streams where 100 demons were gathered? But to say that 100 demons on week 2 in WT is a common thing, and that's normal...
Aha, now I understand. Yesterday I asked Asm why he stopped playing on VT, and he said he didn't have any time. Now it's clear why he's not around :D :D :D
Added 8 minutes later By the way, I've met Readmi. He also played in the community, and he managed to defeat a hundred demons on difficulty level 3. On difficulty level 2, he played as the Orcs.
I'm not talking about your LOL game, where you started with "who can gather the most troops" and ended with "who will win."
And it's now much more enjoyable (easier) to play on VT, and that's an undeniable fact.
Сейчас балуюсь этим https://vcmi.eu/download/ За то что нейтралы не бегают за единичкой, для меня это уже стоит того
Readme number 2? On which templates other than Jebus Cross do you have 100 demons on the second week in BT? What does "norm" mean? 9 out of 10?
I'm exaggerating with 100, of course, but having 50-60 on the second week is entirely possible. And these demons look great in Dragon Utopia, etc. 50 demons are equivalent to 370 skeletons (by value). Why was necromancy cut in TE/BT? To prevent such absurdity as a fat stack taken out of thin air. To stop free cons/Dragon Utopia and гг. This is happening now with Inferno, and how one can fail to see it — I have no idea. Now, judging by the reports, even after capturing an Inferno secondary, people are switching to demon-slaying regardless of their Castle. And this isn't obvious because there's Broghild, Tiraxor, Galtran... But there is actually nothing to be proud of here. For the game, it's a minus. Yes, I don't like 100-hit Vivs, I don't like wolves where a hundred of them deal 1k damage, etc. Because that is STUPIDITY, not BALANCE.
I drew some kind of monster... but other castles have several worker stacks, and how many does Inferno have? Ifrits are okay, sometimes they decide the outcome... but devils can only be placed on Guard.
And more than half of the matchups are far from easy, plus you also need to know how to cut down your losses.
Yes, and in Soda, Inferno is very balanced compared to other factions.
The main drawback of SoD is the lack of balance. How to fix it without affecting the gameplay – only Chuck Norris knows. Therefore, during the development of the TE, the issue of preserving the SoD gameplay was not even raised.
But the problem here is not even in the gameplay and so on. Let's say a miracle happened, and a version that suits everyone in terms of gameplay emerged. And everyone started playing it, even Rebel. What will happen?
That's right – Rebel will start dominating everything, simply because there are many players among the WoG community who are more skilled than him. In terms of overall hero skills, not tied to a specific version. And since this upsets his ego, he will start inventing reasons why not to play this version, but to go back and play SoD with newbies.
As the unforgettable Professor Savelyev taught us, the human brain resists stress, and one way to overcome this resistance is the desire to assert oneself, to show off, which leads to the release of certain hormones into the brain that stimulate its work, the famous enthusiasm. Of course, these hormones are released mainly during successes (or the expectation of successes). And they make people addicted to situations where they once achieved success.
That is, the main advantage of SoD is not the gameplay, but the community. The principle of "it's better to be the first in the village than the second in Rome" has not been canceled. It's better to be the champion of uryupinskportal.net in SoD than to be on the sidelines of WoG-MM6; there will be something to remember in old age, about what glorious times there were.
I perfectly understand this position; I can't say that I strongly criticize it; I myself have done this more than once. Everyone realizes themselves in their own way.
It's just that you need to call things by their names. And not invent excuses for yourself that I play SoD because it's better than WoG. Because this is simply not true; WoG, as a competitive game, surpasses it by a head in almost all respects.
This is what I'm arguing about, and not about people's right to choose a version.
1. Those who want to will dominate (not well-mannered people, I'm telling you).
2. I play rather weakly compared to above-average players from the Heroes community, but for some reason, this does not prevent me from reasoning and thinking for the common good, and not for my own sake.
3. By the way, Savelyev said that this is true for every living person, and not only those who can speak, but also the blind and deaf.
4. Why do you call SoD players newbies? Have you lost to them in SoD or not? I think so. The reason is not important; the result is important. No one will remember that you heroically resisted; only the cup and the story of the winner will remain.
5. You are proving the superiority of WoG; I am saying that these are different games, but it would be nice to take some elements and add them to SoD, but besides morality, luck, and GS. Why? Well, at least because it will have a factor of surprise. Victory is more pleasant when it is achieved through intriguing resistance from both sides, and not when after the nth number of days, everything is clear, and most importantly, there is no hope for the other person to make a mistake. It's not even about skill. After all, a misclick is also a human factor, but there is a chance to correct it in SoD, but less so in WoG. Both games are good, but they are different, and WoG will never be better than SoD; it will be good in its own way, but different, and the same goes for SoD.
6. Well, I just can't lie. I personally really like SoD; what now? I can play at the same level in WoG, but I am drawn to SoD; it is alive, not just a set of rules.
7. And if we call things by their names, how do we call people who like different versions of games? It's a matter of taste. And if you like different girls, is that also a condition? You can't put everyone under one comb.
МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...
1. Those who want to will bend (ill-mannered people, oh dear).
"Bend" meaning to outplay.
2. I play frankly poorly compared to above-average players from the Heroes mass, but for some reason that doesn't stop me from reasoning and thinking for the greater good, rather than for myself.
That's good. Such a quality is quite rare on average in society.
4. Why do you call SoD players noobs? Have you lost to them in SoD or not? I think yes. The reason isn't important—the result is; no one will remember that you put up a heroic resistance; only the cup and the winner's story will remain)).
Well, it's no secret that the average skill of SoD players is noticeably lower. This has been confirmed repeatedly by various cross-portal events, CIS championship qualifiers, and even regular tournaments. WT players consistently outplayed SoD players on their own turf everywhere. Of course, there were defeats too, it happens, but the overall statistics are quite one-sided. And in my case, by the way, it's the same, even though I barely play SoD and only have a general idea of how to play it.
5. You're proving the superiority of WT, but I say they are different games. Still, it wouldn't be bad to take some elements and insert them into SoD, except for morale, luck, and GS. Why? Well, at least because it would introduce a factor of surprise. Victory is more pleasant when it comes through an intriguing struggle from both sides, rather than when after N number of days everything is clear, AND MOST IMPORTANTLY, there is no hope for the opponent's mistake. It's not even about skill. After all, a misclick is also a human factor, but in SoD there's a chance to fix it, while in WT there's less. Both games are good, but they are different in nature, and WT will never be better than SoD; it will be good in its own way, but different, and so will SoD.
For a competitive game, the variance of results depending on skill is a very important factor. In SoD, this variance is much higher; that is its main drawback. The main factors rocking the boat are morale and the spread of starting armies. Plus a lot of little things here and there.
Also, the balance between towns and skills is very poor, which significantly impoverishes the game. Most games play out with a few standard town pairs, and 3 towns (Necropolis, Conflux, Inferno) out of 9 are only used on rare occasions. And everyone roughly levels the same skills. It's all quite dreary.
The chance to fix an error is higher in SoD (probably), but solely due to external randomness, not because of skill. However, at a high level of play, mistakes are almost never forgiven, whether in SoD or WT, so this factor does not have a major impact on the competitiveness of the game.
6. Well, I just can't lie outright. Personally, I really do like SoD more, so what now? I can play WT at the same level too, but I'm drawn to SoD; it's alive, not just technical play. 7. And if we call a spade a spade, what do we call people who like different versions of the games? It's a matter of taste. And if someone likes different girls, is that also not up to par? You can't lump everyone together.
Well, if you like it, you like it; I'm not saying drop everything and play WT. SoD fans will always exist, and finding an opponent for a game or an interesting tournament won't be hard. I myself am currently participating in one SoD tournament.
Just don't come out with all kinds of dubious arguments about the merits of SoD compared to WT. There's very little evidentiary power in them, and the true motivation is all too easily perceived. Even if the author himself doesn't realize it.
Well, it's no secret to anyone that the average skill level of SoD players is significantly lower. This has been repeatedly confirmed by all sorts of inter-portal events, qualifiers for the CIS championship, and even regular Tournaments. VT players consistently beat SoD players on their own turf. Of course, there were losses too—it's not as if there weren't—but the general statistics are quite one-sided.
2 Vic. Can we conclude that a VT player has higher skill than a SoD player because they are smarter? I will present my arguments on this topic.
There was a period in "Heroes life" when the wonderful League of Heroes website missed the boat (no offense—it happened) regarding the emerging online movement led by Armageddon and Balamut, and they were taken in by the Portal. Although, IMHO, ideologically and spiritually, the League would have found it easier to reach an agreement with those guys, but it didn't work out.
At the same time, the Portal back then was a bit different, more oriented toward the social component than the competitive one. This led to a sharp conflict between the old Portal users and the incoming online players. As a result, the vast majority of online players moved to the one created by Bay—these were all the people from St. Petersburg, Muscovites led by Stinger, DVStranger, etc., all the Belarusians, and some Ukrainians.
It turned out that 90 percent of the best players (and likely even more) ended up on Bay. Everything that the Heroes world had produced in terms of competitive mastery across various circles over many years ended up on Bay. Players like Cobra, Bayazet, Mike—I've heard of them as tournament players since 1999—and Stinger, AlexGreat, DSVasya went through a grueling tournament school before they became fathers.
And gradually, influenced by many factors, these players moved to TE and later to VT.
One could say that completely independently of them, almost from scratch, circles were growing on the Portal, and slightly later on World. You cannot compare potentials; on one side, you have the cream of the gaming world collected over more than ten years, and on the other, new communities of online players who mostly have a 3-4 year history, or even less, behind them.
In theory, the best minds of the new circles, upon maturing to the top level, should have moved en masse to TE... but that is exactly what we don't see. Among the new players, there are both fans of TE-VT and opponents, the latter of whom, judging by comments on the Portal and World, are even more numerous.
I am writing this not to start a flame war, but simply to show that player communities choose their own paths of development.
This is a path already traveled many times. For example, in Europe, Christianity won as the only true and correct religion. And in Asia—Buddhism and Islam. There are extremists, but most people accepted such a difference as a given, though after long wars.
The same thing is happening in miniature here. You cannot say whether one game is better or worse. Both have a sufficient number of fans. I don't believe in the death of SoD. Back in 2002, people talked about its inevitable death after the release of the fourth game. TE players talked so much about the death of SoD... Let's say, in 2-3 years, when the new players mature and gain tournament experience comparable to the Bay circle, only then can we talk about the skill level of SoD players.
And you should judge not by Pit or NeoEndy, some of the early tops of the new circles, but by players who have already entered mass tournaments, where character and skill are forged in the heat of battle and experience is acquired. It is from them that the new Stingers and AlexGreats will emerge.
And I, by the way, feel the same, even though I barely play SoD and only have a general idea of how to play it.
Yura, could it be that by not playing SoD and only knowing it in general terms, you are judging this version unfairly? All your positive emotions from the game were experienced specifically with VT, and therefore you perceive the differences present in SoD with hostility.
For example, I played VT very little for various reasons, including having little free time when it finally became available. I admit that VT might be better than SoD, but only as a hypothesis. More likely, both versions will continue to exist successfully and equally.
There was a period in the life of a Heroes player... ...
All sorts of things happened. Figuring out what and why happened, and why things turned out the way they did, is a topic for casual conversation.
But for strategic planning, it's important to analyze the current situation. And the current situation is as I described. Whether that's good or bad is a secondary concern.
Right now, the situation is such that you can only earn a reputation as a good player by winning competitive tournaments on standard maps, with standard settings, and so on. You can win as much as you want on custom maps, and the attitude towards that will be at best, "yes, there's a player who does well on those." Custom maps need a very prestigious tournament (like a world championship or a CIS championship) for the title of winner to mean something. But the winner of even a mid-level competitive tournament immediately attracts public attention, simply because the participants in these tournaments are quite strong, and they don't let anyone win easily.
Message from Wicc: Well, the fact that the average skill level in SOD is noticeably lower is no secret to anyone. This has been repeatedly confirmed by various inter-portal competitions, selection rounds for the CIS championship, and even ordinary tournaments. WT players consistently beat SOD players on their own turf.
I think Nagan-4 rightly pointed out the variance in skill. We'll get better :)
For a competitive game, a very important factor is the dispersion of results depending on skill. In SOD, this dispersion is much higher, which is its main drawback. The main factors that create instability are morale and the variance in the starting army. Plus, there are many other minor factors.
The problem of army variance can be solved, but being able to deal with external morale factors is also an indicator of skill, especially since you yourself say that in games between top players, morale of neutrals is not particularly important in SOD, so why remove it completely if it accounts for a negligible share in determining the outcome of the game?
For a competitive game, a very important factor is the dispersion of results depending on skill. In SOD, this dispersion is much higher, which is its main drawback. The main factors that create instability are morale and the variance in the starting army. Plus, there are many other minor factors.
Let's say two castles, both with all buildings at their maximum level, start a game. Essentially, a war unfolds, a theater of military operations, in which the one who uses their chances better will win, but also taking into account chance (let's read Napoleon's words :) ). In all games in the world, whether it's football, hockey (especially noticeable in team games), volleyball, or basketball, there is a factor of luck, and it cannot be eliminated. Let's say a basketball player, in a very difficult situation in the center of the court, throws the ball into the basket, and it bounces off the rim, hangs there for a bit, and then goes in. What will most people say? If you reason it out, it means that the player lacked the skills to make that shot in that particular situation, they haven't practiced enough, etc. But in reality, you can't blame the player for not practicing that shot in that situation, because it's impossible to practice for all possible situations (there will always be situations that the player is not prepared for). So, no one will criticize the shooter for their lack of professionalism, but will say that they were unlucky. I'm saying all this because the game becomes more interesting and more spectacular for people when there are such moments, when there is a chance for a miraculous save. Let's remember football and the "great" Mr. Filimonov in the game against Ukraine, when he practically scored an own goal, because you can't say that he doesn't know how to catch the ball, but he didn't catch it, and maybe it was due to external factors - lighting, a slippery field, nervous overexertion, which is also an external factor. Over time, people get used to some external stressful situations, and in this way, skill is honed, and ALWAYS, if you know that morale is possible, you count on it as a possible blow to the back, thereby positioning your troops, for example, against stompers two turns away instead of one cell away from a morale-inducing unit.
By the way, I really don't understand why you dismiss morale and GS so much, because in another thread you wrote about winning easily, taking castles without a fight, well, in general, about moments in which there is a bit of luck, deservedly earned through cunning, ingenuity, and intelligence....
P.S. Luck must be earned, and in at least 80% of cases, it is given to the strongest, although it is still unpredictable.
Message from Wicc Currently, the situation is such that you can only earn a reputation as a good player by winning WT tournaments, on normal maps, with normal settings, etc. You can win as many games as you want in SOD, but the attitude towards this will be at most "yes, there is such a player." SOD needs a very representative tournament (like a world championship or a CIS championship) so that the title of winner of such a tournament means something. But the winner of even a mid-level tournament in WT immediately attracts the attention of the public, simply because the lineup in these tournaments is quite strong, and they don't let anyone win easily.
I think Heroes players will unite if SOD is improved and rid of some WT drawbacks. It's clear that both have their drawbacks, so we need to combine the best of both. And the fact that most of the TOP players are currently playing WT is a historically established factor + a convenient interface, and also a balance that can be achieved in SOD
МУДРЫЙ - не обязательно старый, ОПЫТНЫЙ - не обязательно мудрый... обладатель и того и другого всегда должен помнить слова НАПОЛЕОНА БОНАПАРТА: Война состоит из непредусмотренных событий; В каждом большом деле всегда приходится какую-то часть оставить на долю :smile33: СЛУЧАЯ...
RiMpel2
