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Posts from CIS Club Championship 2010-2011Auto-translated
A small off-topic. For some reason, it came to mind :)
There are several traits that, in my opinion, are very harmful to the French themselves, but which cannot be eradicated.
The French don't know how to negotiate amicably.
That is, of course, agreements are signed, concluded, and fulfilled. That's not what I'm talking about. I'm talking about how we come to an agreement. The process itself is interesting:
A Frenchman always tries to get everything by force. And, accordingly, you can only negotiate with him by force. He always tries to dictate.
In response, just grab your French partners by the throat. (Figuratively) and you will come to an agreement. It's strange, wild, but that's how it is. If you can't grab them by the throat, then there will be no negotiations as such: they will dictate what they need. Then they will think about it and expand the list. That's all. They won't think of anything to offer you, except coffee and some arrogant advice.
Almost all French people tend to overestimate their abilities. This is especially true when it comes to admitting their own mistakes. I have seen cases where, out of some irrepressible stubbornness, a person ended up in court, but still remained stubborn. And even after losing the case, he remained stubborn.
Such behavior sometimes brings positive results - you give up and don't pursue it to the end, especially since the costs of lawyers are high, and the wheels of justice turn too slowly.
A Frenchman is sure that he is always right. And when two Frenchmen negotiate, it's just two roosters, outwardly observing the proprieties.
Sometimes it seems to me that they are not capable of repentance and of apologizing sincerely and without pressure.
Family quarrels of such intensity are not uncommon here that it is frightening. Here are two brothers - one is 60, the other is 63. One moved abroad and is therefore a little "richer" than his sick and impoverished relative who remained in France. They cannot agree and hate each other because of a piece of land, which they both try to sell to me. It's just amazing. Both are ready to share the money, not take the whole amount for themselves. One agrees to a lower price, and the other wants more, but also wants to put down his brother - he needs the money more.
In every Frenchman, especially the one who "makes decisions," there lives a small or large Napoleon.
After all, if you look at it objectively: Napoleon is a comical figure. Hand behind his back, belly forward, endless posing. Monograms and ostentatious glory.
There have been more powerful commanders in history. What is he particularly proud of? A dozen successful battles? But in the end, a series of defeats came, a lonely island, tediousness, arsenic, and a mournful screwing of the wife of his faithful follower.
In the time of Philip the Fair, or even earlier - the Crusades, Louis the Saint, or later - Francis I or Henry II, this dandy would simply have been an army clown.
However, the French adore Napoleon. This is because Napoleon lives in each of them.
It gets to the point of being funny. I prepare for the spectacle in advance. If I don't have a backup option, and preferably three, then there is no point in starting negotiations. The French are not ready to give anything to their partner just like that. Everything must be snatched. In general, normal negotiations involve mutual concessions. But the most effective behavior with the French is to firmly state the price and conditions to your partner, and then politely, without dwelling on it, but clearly explain why you can do without this partner.
For example, I want to sell a building. It is more useful to the buyer than to me. But he will still put on airs until he clearly feels that I don't care. I will sell it to someone else. Bluffing won't work, everyone is experienced. Therefore, in order to sell something to Monsieur Dupont, I have to find three more buyers and even encourage them. At the same time, I know for sure that Dupont will buy it. But Dupont simply doesn't know how to negotiate. And instead of simply agreeing amicably, not wasting energy in vain, for his own benefit, I have to keep a stone in my bosom.
They (the French) almost never give in to threats. Rather, I'm not even talking about someone threatening them. Not at all: here, a Frenchman is clearly getting into a trap, or, there, into a fire for chestnuts. He gets in and gets in. The result is always the same: either he gets burned, or he gets away with it. But he is absolutely sure that he will get away with it, and even though he is already covered in bandages, he still gets in.
It's even worse if a Frenchman stole your chestnuts. You tell him: give them back. He refuses and even insults you. You tell him: you'll get hit on the head. He doesn't believe it. He gets hit. He gives them back. He thinks he was treated unfairly.
It's unclear from what angle and for what reason you brought up "Ebipt." From the beginning, it was clear that the idea was unrealistic in terms of budget and time.
Let me explain: the three of us, Eric, me, and Vic, who have considerable organizational experience, shared our impressions about the upcoming project, possibly in different tones and from different perspectives.
The issue isn't about reality, but about understanding what's happening and having certain organizational skills. It's difficult for people who don't organize anything significant to comment on the abilities and possibilities of the organizers, which is why I react this way to such remarks. Therefore, I don't understand, Vova, your criticisms and statements about what should be done and how. Be more restrained; in person, you seemed like a great guy.
In my opinion, reality is much simpler than how Eric and the guys who support him portray it here. I would do everything differently in his place. Vic also suggests doing things differently. Yes, in this case, I'm judging based on my own experience, but I don't consider myself a role model. There are organizers who are far better than me, so everything we're discussing is insignificant. And since the issue was resolved in such a convoluted way, it seems that the stars aligned that way, but there's no need to try to convince me that "reality isn't flexible."
I reviewed Eric's budget, and I'm preparing one for us "bourgeois" folks (at Merlin's request, for example):
6000 rubles - Round-trip plane ticket Yekaterinburg-Moscow
600 rubles - Round-trip Aeroexpress ticket
1400 rubles - Round-trip train ticket Moscow-Michurinsk
5500 rubles - Accommodation for 5 days in a hotel
800 rubles - Club membership for 4 days
3000 rubles - Food/drinks, without alcohol
1000 rubles - Miscellaneous expenses
Total, the minimum budget comes out to 18300 rubles! With accommodation at the base, it's 14500 rubles!
As I understand it, the Egypt option, which would cost about the same but would be 7 days instead of 5, is no longer worth considering.
Maybe the financial aspect isn't the most important thing for me personally, but I'm not the only one going. So, the base is cheaper, and on top of that, the base is much more convenient for organizing and combining with leisure activities, especially since a taxi costs 50 rubles, or let's say 150 rubles from the base to the city – it's still a small amount. And I don't want to spend 4 days in a club; I don't need to travel across the country for that.
P.S. Today, we had a "heroic" meeting, and all potential candidates for the quotas and the trip support the base option (in the absence of the Egypt option).
peter, everything is fine :)
in discussions like these, it's difficult to truly understand each other, but we should learn from this.
as for me, I am unequivocally on Eric's side, if only for his dedication to Heroes and his confidence that he is the most reasonable of the currently active organizers.
he took on the task, and he sees the process in this way.
he is willing to compromise on some things, but he cannot concede on others, simply because he cannot imagine doing it differently.
but ultimately, he makes the decisions!
otherwise, it will be like the saying about seven nannies.
and regarding the expression that bothered you... here's where the problem lies: it meant playing on laptops in the garden instead of in the club :D
some allusions to a well-known work are also present; I confess, I borrowed them :smile43:
for dessert: Eric is trying to optimize the subject matter with the available resources, minimize costs, and raise the level of play.
but I am curious - what club Tournaments has Yura organized, not judged, despite all my respect for him?
maybe I'm out of the loop.
and how many Dnipro Tournaments were there? how many people played in them? with all due respect to the participants and organizers.
and how many Tournaments did vam rad hold? and what was the number of participants in them - let's find out! and not just the number - the participants: the top Chaos players, including Andre, Joker, Megaps, Stinger, and Chaos himself, came to Michurinsk, and repeatedly.
and they were already partially drawn into poker :D but they didn't complain about the organization - on the contrary! :)
yes, in essence, Krasnodar is the benchmark; it had the largest scale.
but somehow it seems that this is not the peak of Heroes club tournaments; a decline should be followed by a rise.
everything comes down to the most banal resource ;) with its availability, all problems are solved, including those related to time.
so let's live and see who is capable of what in reality, including organizing Heroes championships.
and for now, we need to make this one as successful as possible - I hope everything will be for the best :)
"...the personal strengths and weaknesses of a leader are no true indication of the merits of his cause"
Vova, no offense, but as usual, it's a lot of rambling and ultimately meaningless. It's just pointless chatter, comparing apples to oranges. All the questions you raised about Krasnodar and the like have already been discussed. No one is dwelling on the past; the focus is on current issues and new trends.
As for tournaments, why don't you organize one yourself, and then point fingers? You had the opportunity – in a multi-million city like Moscow, only 6 people showed up for the tournament. Isn't that sad? It was sad for me. What "revival" are you talking about? No one cares about it anymore. To talk about a revival, you need to work towards it, not just talk. With the current trends, this is probably one of the last major tournaments. Belarus didn't even hold qualifiers, and only 4 people played in King's Tournament...
In Dnipro, there were 8 participants, and they came from different cities. The main reason more people didn't come was the lack of motivation – traveling to Michurinsk is a long, expensive, inconvenient, and slow option. I offered to transport the finalists to the final even before the qualifiers, but even that turned out to be impossible.
Let's say 12 people come to the final; is that significantly more than the number of participants in the Dnipro qualifier? No. For the scale of the CIS, even 16 isn't a significant number. Those who can will come. In that case, I don't see the point in holding qualifiers. Everyone already knows approximately who plays at what level. This farce about the "elite" nature of the tournament is no longer needed by anyone, and even less so next year. If someone doesn't have the opportunity to hold a qualifier, then quotas should be given to those who deserve them, according to the opinion of most of the finalists.
The Belarusians, Stinger – what kind of final is it without Artem? Does anyone doubt his ability to win the tournament? If strong players can come, they should be given the opportunity to come and play. That's at least some kind of revival. And when there are so many people who want to participate that there's an overflow, then we can hold qualifiers.
Vova, no offense, but as usual, it's a lot of rambling and meaningless. As they say, just to chat and compare apples to oranges. All the questions you raised about Krasnodar, etc., have already been discussed. No one remembers the past; the current issues are different.
But why did they suddenly arise? Vik is contradicting himself! First, he calls Heroes a competitive discipline and makes fun of those who leisurely move their horses while drinking beer. But the format he proposed is only a step away from that picture. It's all about the atmosphere, you know. If it's esports, then it's a club. If it's just for fun, then it could even be a beach in Egypt! Is the concept of atmosphere and ambiance really that insignificant? Let's hold the Champ-18 final on Red Square! It's closer to the hotels, after all! :D
As for the tournaments, organize at least one, and then point your finger. You had that opportunity – in a multi-million city like Moscow, only 6 people showed up for the tournament. Isn't that sad? It was sad for me. What "revival" are you talking about? No one needs it anymore. To talk about a revival, you need to work on it, not just talk. With the current trends, this is probably one of the last major tournaments. Belarus didn't even hold qualifying rounds; only 4 people played in King...
Noted! But pointing your finger is my right, and it's not your prerogative to decide whether I should do it or not. You can only point out the discrepancy between the facts I present and reality! I'll point it out to you now: I haven't had the opportunity to organize a proper tournament (in my opinion) yet, so you're wrong. And it all came down to the lack of the most basic resource, which I wrote about in my previous post ;) And your words are just confirmation: without proper material incentives, or at least support, no one will lift a finger. But if there are resources, I will definitely organize it. I suggest we don't argue about this topic right now, but remember these red letters – and then we'll see who's just talking.... although I hope this definition is nothing more than an attempt to put pressure on the opponent in the absence of other arguments))
In Dnipro, there were 8 people, including people from different cities. More people didn't come mainly because of the lack of motivation – the trip to Michurinsk is not close, not cheap, not convenient, and not fast. I offered to take the finalists to the final even before the qualifying round, but that turned out to be impossible.
Exactly!!! Motivation again! The most basic resource. In that hypothetical tournament that we were talking about above, transportation and other incentives are planned to the fullest.... that's why it hasn't been held yet.... yet ;)
Let's say 12 people will come to the final, is that much more than in the qualifying round in Dnipro? No. For the scale of the CIS, even 16 is not significant. Those who can will come. In that case, I don't see the point in qualifying rounds. Everyone already knows who plays at what level. This farce about the "elite" tournament is no longer needed by anyone at the moment, and even less so next year. If some people don't have the opportunity to hold qualifying rounds, then quotas should be given to those who deserve it in the opinion of most of the finalists. The Belarusians, Stinger – what kind of final would it be without Artem? Does anyone doubt his ability to win the tournament? If strong players can come, they should be given the opportunity to come and play. This is at least some kind of revival. And when there are no more applicants, then we can hold qualifying rounds.
It's all about the same thing. Why did poker devour Heroes? Both are games, but in one, money is circulating and players are getting paid, and in the other, nothing. But I agree – we need to give people the opportunity)). Read what's written in red. And if there is a lack of information, I don't recommend arguing right now – I will invite everyone to this event, including those for whom Heroes is more than just a game – but you might refuse to come so as not to look stupid after this argument :) For me, this argument is not an attempt to convince you of something, but a search for the truth. In essence, we are talking about the same thing: there is no money, Heroes is dying. I'm going further – if there is money, it will grow and flourish. Eric's feat lies precisely in the fact that he manages to do this with almost no money.... well, with some necessary expenses from the players themselves – but without that, it's impossible. So, we shouldn't interfere with him and belittle his role – at this stage, with the current lack of sponsorship, his dedication deserves respect – I know this because I have experienced it personally. Yura too, but to a much lesser extent. And it would be good for your guys and you, Pyotr, to find an opportunity to break away – Eric's tournament tradition is such that you would definitely reconsider your point of view. Well, it's not evening yet. In the end, this Champ is not the last one, and I have absolutely no reason to make a fool of myself and talk nonsense by typing red letters :smile02:
I read Eric's budget, and I'm preparing it for us, the "bourgeoisie" (at Merlin's request, for example):
6000 rubles - Round-trip plane ticket Yekaterinburg-Moscow 600 rubles - Round-trip Aeroexpress ticket 1400 rubles - Round-trip train ticket Moscow-Michurinsk 5500 rubles - Accommodation for 5 days in a hotel 800 rubles - Club membership for 4 days 3000 rubles - Food/drinks, without alcohol 1000 rubles - Miscellaneous expenses The minimum total budget is 18300 rubles! If staying at the base, it's 14500 rubles!
As I understand it, the Egypt option, which would cost about the same but would be 7 days instead of 5, is no longer worth considering.
That's an interesting budget. Could you provide a similar one for Egypt? Is anyone still considering the Michurinsk hotel option for that price? :D And is the "Miscellaneous expenses" item also 1000 rubles in Egypt? Let's assume it is. But seriously, does anyone really want to play Heroes in Egypt? :D :D :D If it's just a trip to Egypt as a vacation, then there are no questions, it's a worthwhile and useful endeavor! But flying to another country with laptops to set up and play Heroes, when it's 30+ degrees outside and there's a country you've never been to and want to explore more... As for the people who seriously suggest holding a full-fledged Heroes tournament in Egypt (meaning 4-5 rounds, not just starting 1 game and postponing it), I would advise them to see a psychiatrist, because the sanity of such people is highly questionable. Sorry for being so blunt.
8,800 for 4 days for a double room – IMHO, that’s expensive.
4,000 for 4 days for a double room – that’s a normal, reasonable price. Plus, one day my wife could stay at the санаторий, breathe in some fresh air… Another question is, where will we play chess, at the санаторий? But then it turns out that Erica and others would have to travel out of town to visit us… At the club? But there’s competition from poker… In terms of chess, the city is definitely preferable, but the financial factor favors the санаторий!
That's an interesting budget. Could you provide a similar one for Egypt? Is anyone still considering the Michurinsk hotel option? :D And is the "Miscellaneous expenses" item also 1000 rubles in Egypt? Well, let's assume it is. But seriously, does anyone actually want to play Heroes in Egypt? :D :D :D If it's just a trip to Egypt for a vacation, that's a good and useful thing! But flying to another country with laptops to set up and play Heroes when it's 30+ degrees outside, and you're in a country you've never been to and want to explore more... As for people who seriously suggest holding a full-fledged Heroes tournament in Egypt (meaning 4-5 rounds, not just starting one game and postponing it), I would advise them to see a psychiatrist, because the sanity of such people is questionable. Sorry for being so blunt.
You can talk endlessly, but I offered a real opportunity. If no one played next year, no one would organize it there either; it's all about motivation. If there's motivation, anyone will sit in a basement in London. There's not much point in discussing this. I personally went to Kyiv more to relax and see the city, and despite that, I played all 4 rounds and did quite well, so don't judge everyone by yourself... and besides, are you going to Michurinsk? As far as I understand, no, so there's even less reason to spread demagoguery.
and in general, are you planning to go to Michurinsk? As I understand it, no, so there's even less reason to engage in demagoguery.
Are you planning to go? Did you have a qualifier? Nagan only writes that nothing is known about Yekaterinburg. According to your logic, you shouldn't write anything at all until the selection process is over. Never mind. Just say, what kind of motivation would it take to give up all the joys of Egypt and sit around the clock playing Heroes, and how many such "motivated" people are there, ready to play in 30+ degrees, even if after 1-2 rounds they stop competing? I know it myself. Last year, when we came to Michurinsk in the summer, everyone gathered for the first round. My game turned out to be long, and those who finished earlier said: "Okay, sit here and finish playing, and we'll go to the beach." As a result, no one finished the tournament.
Are you planning to participate? Did you have a qualifier? Nagan keeps saying that nothing is known about Yekaterinburg. According to your logic, you shouldn't write anything at all until the selection process is over. But that's okay. Just tell me, what kind of motivation would it take to give up all the pleasures of Egypt and sit around the clock playing Heroes, and how many "motivated" people are there, willing to play in 30+ degrees, even if after 1-2 rounds they stop being contenders? I know it myself. Last year, when we came to Michurinsk, everyone gathered for the first round. My game turned out to be long, and those who finished earlier said: "Okay, you sit here and finish playing, and we'll go to the beach." In the end, no one finished the tournament.
The topic about Egypt in May 2011 has already been closed, so you can calm down. I'm just saying that it's all possible. And it was +30 in Kyiv too, but we sat in a club and played.
The thread about Egypt in May 2011 has already been closed, so you can relax, I'm just saying that everything is real. And it was +30 in Kyiv too, but we were in a club playing.
I'm calm. And I calmly state that heroes in Egypt are not real, and not in May 2011, but in general. And Egypt itself is real, and I would gladly go there to relax and chat, but I can't for the same reasons as I can't go to Michurinsk.
...I haven't had the opportunity to organize a decent tournament (in my opinion) yet, so you're wrong. And it all came down to the lack of the most basic resource, which I wrote about in my previous post ;) And your words are just confirmation of that: without proper material incentives, or at least support, no one will lift a finger. But if the resource is available, I will definitely organize it. I suggest we don't argue about this right now, but remember these red letters – then we'll see who's just talking.... although I hope this is just an attempt to put pressure on the opponent when there are no other arguments)) .... vooooot!!! motivation again! the most basic resource. In that hypothetical tournament that we were talking about earlier, both transportation and other incentives are planned to be at a high level.... that's why it hasn't been held yet.... yet ;) Well, it's not over yet. After all, this championship isn't the last one, and I have absolutely no reason to make a fool of myself and talk nonsense, just by typing in red letters.
This is like saying, "If Aunt Manya had testicles, she would be Uncle Vasya." Wowa, understand this proverb and be realistic, and believe me, each of us knows how to fantasize. Just do it, and then talk, but for now, it just brings a smile to my face. As my grandfather used to say, even a fool can solve all problems with money, buy everything, and pay for everything, but try to succeed without money. And since nothing has been done yet, everything written is just "empty talk." wowa
but still, it would be good for your guys and you, Pyotr, to find a way to break free
Excerpt from a letter to Eric on March 15th.
I won't be able to come on the specified dates. At the company where I work, there are only 2 days off a year – January 1st and May 1st. New Year's is obvious, but on May 1st, employees with their families come from all regions of the country, and we relax, communicate, and exchange experiences at a resort. This is a long-standing tradition that cannot be canceled or postponed, and as the organizer, I cannot miss this event. Many issues can be resolved, the vacation can be rescheduled, some current work issues can be addressed, and arrangements can be made with the family, but in this case, they won't understand me...
I knew about this back in late January, when Eric was arranging the club, and I wrote about the possible need to vote on the dates, to which Eric replied that the club management would probably not object to May 6-9, but it turned out to be the opposite only now. It's a pity, if this information had been available earlier, I would have postponed the selection (at least because I went to the games with a cut leg, which, by the way, hasn't healed yet) or not held it at all, because, as it turns out, few of us are ready to go at these dates. Because I won't be going myself, I won't be lobbying anyone. This is now Eric's and the other participants' decision.
Are you planning to participate? Did you have a qualifier? Nagan only writes that nothing is known about Yekaterinburg. According to your logic, you shouldn't write anything at all until the selection is over. Never mind. Just say what kind of motivation would be needed to give up all the pleasures of Egypt and sit around the clock playing Heroes, and how many such "motivated" people are there, ready to play in 30+ degrees, even if after 1-2 rounds they stop competing for anything? I know it myself. Last year, when we came to Michurinsk, everyone gathered for the first round. My game turned out to be long, and those who played earlier said: "Okay, sit here and finish playing, and we'll go to the beach." As a result, no one finished the tournament.
Kostya, Egypt is at least 7 days. It is realistic to play 4 rounds. What are you so worried about? You are now acting like a chatterbox; Mii hit the nail on the head. :) It all depends on people's motivation; personally, I don't care where I play, as long as I don't have to sit in a club for 4 days in the summer and sweat.
Kostya, Egypt is at least 7 days. It's realistic to play 4 rounds. What are you getting so worked up about? You're starting to sound like those who just talk, Mii hit the nail on the head. :)
Tema, you're the first one who will say "Forget about this Heroes thing," especially if you don't win in the first round :D I don't want to argue with anyone, I just can't believe in the success of this event: Heroes + Egypt :) I'm not even talking about the fact that some people can't even come for 4 days because of work, and here it's 7. You need to take a full vacation. In this situation, I completely agree with Merlin's position. KobRa_RR
as long as we don't have to sit in a club for 4 days in the summer and sweat.
Then we should hold the final in winter, in Kingisepp. :D
Wicc
