Poll. So, what exactly is Hit&Run? — Tournament Committee

Дубровин Павел

11/16/2010 5:40 PM UTC

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Pit for LM

Another question regarding the first formulation:

What if the attacker has a spellcasting stack? Should this be clarified? It seems like the units, not the hero, are casting spells.

To avoid any ambiguity in understanding.
It would be better to state whether the ban applies to units that cast magic or not.

С истиной где-то рядом...

Лето 2010.

AYMAN

11/16/2010 5:42 PM UTC

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Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of combat if they cast any spells. This restriction does not apply to the hero who is defending. I support this option.

Pit for LM

11/17/2010 8:36 AM UTC

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To comply with the formalities of a substantial Rule change, I have attached a poll.

Option 1. Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of battle if he or his units have cast any magic. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending.

Option 2. Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of battle if he has cast direct damage magic (magic arrow, lightning bolt, ice bolt, chain lightning, meteor shower, explosion, inferno, fireball, ring of cold, wave of death, armageddon) and inflicted damage on the opponent's units. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending.

Please check the box.

The poll will last for 15 days, and the winning rule will be implemented in December.

Captain

11/17/2010 9:22 AM UTC

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I would add another option for foreigners – three rounds.
I don't care which option, the main thing is to avoid confusion and especially technical issues due to different rules on different portals.
So, it wouldn't hurt to add a 4th option – "Doesn't matter".

Дипломатия - искусство говорить собаке "хорошая собачка" до тех пор пока не найдешь подходящую палку.

Wicc

11/17/2010 9:24 AM UTC

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Where is the "against all" option? For example, I don't like the caveat "or its units" in the first option. In my opinion, units should be able to cast spells without limitations.

In reply to Wicc

Дубровин Павел

11/17/2010 4:51 PM UTC

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Wicc

Where is the "against all" option? For example, I don't like the caveat "or its units" in the first option. In my opinion, units should be able to cast spells without restrictions.

As a third option, it would be better to give players the ability to choose whether to allow or prohibit the Attacking hero from casting spells with their units when retreating in the first round.

Something like this:

"The Attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of battle if they have cast any spells. At the same time, the hero's units can cast spells without restrictions. The Hit&Run restriction does not apply to the defending hero."

С истиной где-то рядом...

Лето 2010.

In reply to Дубровин Павел

Wicc

11/17/2010 5:44 PM UTC

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Dubrovin Pavel

As a third option, it would be better to give Heroes players the ability to choose whether to allow or prohibit the Attacking hero from casting spells with their units when retreating in the first round.

Something like this:

"The Attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of battle if they have cast any spells, while the hero's units can cast spells without restrictions. The Hit&Run restriction does not apply to the defending hero."

But before, it wasn't prohibited to cast spells with units... why did they decide to prohibit it now?

bRitvo4kA

11/17/2010 5:51 PM UTC

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The formulation was suggested by Pit for LM; it's exactly what's needed, here it is: Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of battle if he cast any magic. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending. Otherwise, according to option 1, it would be possible to find a loophole, for example, by retaliating with a dragonfly against another dragonfly and catching the opponent in the first round, which is unfair. Also, the magical attack of the Fairy is not considered a trick, because it's the same as using archangels as a trick; for such a maneuver, a decent price should be paid, meaning that in this case, there is no way to inflict significant damage with minimal effort. I ask that you revert to what was proposed and what people voted for.

В дикім полі

Albert@s

11/17/2010 9:12 PM UTC

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Why bother arguing? Hit-and-run is using direct damage magic in the first round, followed by retreat or repositioning, and that's it. All other magic is a waste of mana, which doesn't harm the defending side... and this doesn't apply to spellcasting units, only one unit is controlled by the mouse - wizards (when was the last time you had them in your army and what direct damage do they deal with their magic, or are you playing "Loss of Innocence" every day?)...
Why all the fuss? Of course, only the second option is correct...
And even simpler: if someone dies on the enemy side as a result of using any magic in the first round, then that's it... continue playing...

Wlk777

11/17/2010 11:21 PM UTC

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I really don't understand the heated debate surrounding this issue – controversial situations involving hit-and-run tactics arise in, at most, one game out of 100 (and even that's unlikely), and they can be easily resolved with common sense. Creating elaborate rules in advance and engaging in nitpicking, in my opinion, is not worth the effort.

Всем удачи ! И Морали !

In reply to Albert@s

Wicc

11/18/2010 10:47 AM UTC

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Albert@s

all other magic is a waste of mana that does no harm to the defending side...

"Speak more, so that everyone's foolishness may be seen" (c) Peter I

All other magic is, for example, mass haste-prayer-word, bers, maybe teleport. In short, that which facilitates or makes possible a power hit-and-run.

Example from a real game - Shakhtyor attacks with 1 scorpicore and 1+200+1 Troglodytes, casts mass haste, strikes the wyverns, and on the last Troglodyte's turn buys himself out.

Another example, also from a real game - Valya attacks Kirill, both have 8th speed on their archers. Valya splits archers 60+1, moves forward with tactics, casts single haste on the 1-stack of archers, strikes the grand elves with the main stack, and buys himself out on the 1-stack's turn.

Added after 13 minutes

Wlk777

I generally don't understand the heated debate on this issue - at most, borderline hit-and-run situations arise in maybe one game out of 100 (if even that) and are easily resolved with basic common sense; coming up with something in advance and competing in pedantry is, IMHO, not worth it.

A real-life example of where vague formulations and attempts to rely on common sense lead - http://www.forum.heroes.by/viewtopic.php?t=677&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

In reply to Wicc

Dirty_Player

11/18/2010 1:56 PM UTC

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What nonsense are you talking about?! Either I've gone crazy, or Peter and Pasha have. Explain to me how the monster cast has harmed you? How does the lightning attack of a magic dragon differ from the attack of an Archdevil? Or reveal the secrets of why the master-jinn or ogre-mage cast is such a cheat? I just want to understand the logic.

In reply to Dirty_Player

Oelm

11/18/2010 2:34 PM UTC

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You're talking nonsense! Either I'm going crazy, or Peter and Pasha are.

Konstantin, reading your posts in the adjacent thread about the lighter, I sometimes ask myself the same question. But here, I agree with you 100%. As well as the fact that Peter's rules, in essence, not only kill the power hit-and-run as a fact (in SOD, wolves can't have 15 speed), but also give the opportunity to complain after the game. (edited).

Земля нуля.
Все в ней нулево и кукольно.

Albert@s

11/18/2010 5:56 PM UTC

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"Let them speak more, so that everyone's foolishness is evident" (c) Peter I
for those who are particularly slow on the uptake, from the posts above...
An example from a real game — Shakhtar attacks with 1 scorpicore and 1+200+1 Troglodytes, casts Mass Haste, attacks the Wyverns, and on the turn of the last Troglodyte, retreats.

Another example, also from a real game — Valya attacks Kirill, both have 8th speed on their Archers. Valya splits the Archers 60+1, moves forward on Tactics, casts a single Haste on the stack of 1 Archer, attacks the Grands with the main stack, and on the turn of the stack of 1, retreats.................)))
It turns out not everyone even understands what they're arguing about...
From the examples — if the retreat happens in the second round, then it has nothing to do with this topic at all, or do you want to consider that H&R too??? That is already called something slightly different — it is merely a moment of the Game...

In reply to Albert@s

Oelm

11/18/2010 6:13 PM UTC

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Albertos, you are wrong. Vik's example is correct; it's about making a concession in the first round. I, however, believe that this is a part of the gameplay. He doesn't.

Земля нуля.
Все в ней нулево и кукольно.