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Posts from Poll. So, what exactly is Hit&Run?

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The attacking hero cannot retreat in the first round of combat if:
26 voters
Single choice Public votes Closed 2010-12-02
This poll is closed.
he or his units cast any spell
65.4% 17 votes
He cast direct damage spells (the list is in the first post of the thread) and dealt damage to the opponent's units
34.6% 9 votes
In reply to Oelm
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Offline PReDS
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#16
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Pit for LM
I wonder, what criteria will I use to determine which option is more preferable for players?
Personally, I don't care what rules we play by, as long as the opponent knows and follows them.
If there is a dispute with serious arguments, there's no escaping a vote.
Tomorrow morning I will create a poll. For now, let's decide on the options:

Option 1:
Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of combat if they cast any magic. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending.
Option 2:
Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of combat if they cast direct damage magic. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending.
To Oelm. Pasha, please clarify your wording. Should it include self-damage and resistance?
Oelm

Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of combat if they cast direct damage magic (magic arrow, lightning bolt, ice bolt, chain lightning, meteor shower, explosion, Inferno, fireball, ring of cold, wave of death, armageddon) and dealt damage to the opponent's units. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending.

To Dubrovin Pavel. Pasha, will we put your wording up for a vote?

In general, it seems clear that any magic is used to gain some benefit for oneself; otherwise, why use it? And if you cast magic, be kind enough to listen to the opponent's response, instead of running away.

In general, let's have options and clear wording, once the poll is created, it will be impossible to change the words and include other variations.Option 2, and Oelm's wording are absolutely unacceptable: anyone who has an idea of what an expert berserker is will understand me perfectly.
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Offline Oelm
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#17
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You can't take revenge on someone else's turn. I tried it once, and let's just say I was told I was wrong. As for "Preds-ty," you somehow got away with something about an expert Berserk. Even if you consider it unacceptable for some reason, that doesn't mean it can't be included as a separate case in my rule. I'm clarifying my position: an expert Berserk cannot be considered a hit-and-run tactic at all. Because in the classic formulation, a hit-and-run implies hitting and running away, whether it's using direct damage magic or a so-called "power hit-and-run" (mass haste), for example. If mass Berserk is cast, then a) it might not work due to resistance; b) someone among those affected by the Berserk might have their morale triggered; c) if several units still manage to get through, the turn will probably still reach the opponent (if not, it's their own fault – they didn't position their units correctly, didn't separate a single unit, etc.). That is, they will have the opportunity to retaliate – by casting magic or simply using mass haste, which will result in it no longer being a hit-and-run but an exchange. And it's still unclear who will benefit from it. Therefore, please don't stir up trouble unnecessarily; we've heard about Berserk even without you.
Земля нуля.
Все в ней нулево и кукольно.
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Offline PReDS
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#18
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Oelm
...if not, then it's your own fault – you didn't position yourself correctly, you didn't separate a single unit, etc...
That's a good argument. Then all this discussion about banning Hit&Run tactics isn't worth the trouble; it's your own fault: you positioned yourself incorrectly on the map, giving the opponent the opportunity to use this tactic.

If we're talking about Warlords, then in early encounters, Hypnosis is often much more effective than direct damage spells.
Oelm
Separately, I'll explain my position: an expert Berserker cannot be considered a Hit&Run tactic at all. Because in the classic formulation, Hit&Run implies - attack and retreat, both when using direct damage spells and with so-called "power Hit&Run" (mass haste), for example. ...
You can play with words, or you can think about the meaning. Why is magical Hit&Run banned, but power Hit&Run isn't? Because with magic, you can inflict significant damage to the enemy's army without significant cost (1500 to buy back the hero on an Angel, let alone Firebirds, Greater Serpents, etc., and 2500 to buy him back from the tavern later), while power Hit&Run requires a powerful attacking stack with the first move and, therefore, a lot of money to buy back units.
Attacking with a Berserker and then buying him back is closer to the first case and will cost, at worst, 1500 more.
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Offline Oelm
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#19
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The point is that with a "hit and run" tactic, the defending player has no opportunity to cast spells or move troops; all other cases are not considered "hit and run." Attacking with Berserk and then using "buy-off" is far removed from both a magical "hit and run" and a power-based one. The probability that significant damage will be inflicted on the troops, rather than, say, a Ballista, is small, and there is also a risk of not being able to "buy-off." Please provide an example from the game where using Berserk and then "buy-off" in the first round will inflict noticeable damage while the risk of a "hit and run" is absent or minimal.
Земля нуля.
Все в ней нулево и кукольно.
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Offline Pit for LM
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#20
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Another question regarding the first formulation:
Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of battle if they cast any magic. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending.
What if the attacker has a spellcasting stack? Should this be clarified? It seems like the units, not the hero, are casting the spells.
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Offline Loi
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#22
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Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of battle if they cast any spell. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending.

+1.
1) Unambiguous interpretation - no additional entities are created - direct damage spells, etc. (all these nuances should be within the rule)
2) Simplicity of interpretation - as mentioned above, the simpler, the better...
What if the attacker has a spellcasting stack? Does this need to be clarified? It seems that the spell is cast not by the hero, but by their units?
Based on the principles outlined above, retreating is also not allowed; the spell was cast, even if it was done through a spellcasting unit and not manually, through a spellbook.

There is no impoverishment of the game; it simply means that we now need to consider the possibility that this unit may have to be sacrificed, and that's all:). You cast a spell yourself - let another cast a spell for you;).
Стратегия - искусство возможного.

Первое правило форума :
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И не оспаривай глупца" (с)

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Offline rebellious
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#23
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I looked at how the semantically identical Hit&Run rule is described on foreign gaming resources.
A player cannot retreat/surrender in battle if they have inflicted more damage than their opponent within the first three rounds. Counterattacks do not count. It is not allowed to use magic above level 3 and heroes from the dungeon above level 11.
There is no emphasis on the use of magic in the rule. Perhaps this is fairer. In any case, it provides food for thought.
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Offline bRitvo4kA
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#24
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Pit for LM
Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of battle if they cast any magic. This restriction does not apply to the hero who is defending.

Clear, understandable, and unambiguous – I approve! :)

I strongly disagree with the interpretation as seen on foreign resources, regarding 3 rounds. This limitation significantly impacts attempts at guerrilla warfare using mages.
Moreover, in the case of the final battle, it's not always possible to last 3 rounds, essentially depriving players of the opportunity for interesting maneuvers.
В дикім полі
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Offline Qwerty
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#25
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A bit of history.
Hit and run was a formidable tactic in the second Heroes game. And it was because of this that in the third game, a hero who fled or bought his way out has not a FULL turn, but only the remainder of the turn he had already used. A particularly sophisticated tactic was "hit-and-run through a well," where the fleeing hero would also visit a well along the way. By the way, this is why the ability to revisit wells was later removed.
In the second game, there are three types of hit-and-run: classic (offensive magic), "aikido" (using blow - an extended attack of dragons and some other units), "magical aikido" (berserk or hypnosis, possibly with the use of blow). In both the second and third cases, the damage is inflicted by the ATTACKED unit, so from a purely formal point of view, if a blow is used, and 1 damage is inflicted on the dragon, it retaliates and eliminates a 15-unit hellhound squad (and if another squad was behind that squad, and 200 damage was inflicted on it - well, that's just your own units attacking).
That's roughly how it worked...

Орден Феникса – харизматический :) лидер
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Offline Dirty_Player
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#26
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Hit-and-run tactics are prohibited: an attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of combat if they have cast any spells. This restriction does not apply to the hero who is defending.

I fully support this formulation.
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Offline Javdet
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#27
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"Message from Pit for LM
Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of battle if they cast any magic. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending."

za-za-za!
Даже если вас съели - у вас два выхода:smile19:

Зима 2011-12.
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Offline Mizrael
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#28
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I support the following version:
Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of battle if they cast any magic. This prohibition does not apply to the hero who is defending.
http://www.twitch.tv/mikevalentine/
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Offline Лось
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#29
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I agree with the idea that an attacking hero who casts a spell in the first round of combat shouldn't be able to bribe their way out of it. I think it's wrong to prohibit casting haste and attacking, as a powerful attack requires a significant cost.
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Offline Dirty_Player
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#31
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Dubrovin Pavel
It would be better to replace "Hero" with "Player" or rephrase it to make it clear that this restriction also applies to the Army.
I don't understand what the difference is between a spellcasting unit and a regular unit. What difference does it make if a Magic Dragon casts a lightning spell or an Archdevil attacks without retaliation?
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