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In reply to Wlk777
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15 years ago
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Wlk777
I would have understood if the SoD supporters honestly said — we don't like WT and that's it... But they come up with some fantasy about 5000+ MP, WT imbalance, etc. :)
What I don't like about WT:
1. wolf upgrade at 111 in Stronghold
2. pit upgrade without GM2
3. creature experience
4. replacing scrolls with gold
5. monster specialists

From this follows the following — WT sets a fast game pace. Vic rightly calls it "Griffin Conservatory-Dragon Fly Hive-Dragon Fly Hive-Griffin Conservatory-Dragon Utopia-Dimension Door-ГГ". Whoever fits into this pace wins, and whoever doesn't loses. IMHO this is wrong.
In reply to Dirty_Player
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15 years ago
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Dirty_Player
What I don't like about WT:
1. wolf upgrade to 111 in Stronghold
2. pit upgrade without GM2
3. creature experience
4. replacing scrolls with gold
5. monster specialists

From this follows the next — WT sets a fast game pace. Vic correctly calls it "Griffin Conservatory-Dragon Fly Hive-Dragon Fly Hive-Griffin Conservatory-Dragon Utopia-Dimension Door-GG". Whoever keeps up with this pace wins, and whoever doesn't loses. IMHO that's not right.
And how much, Konstantin, have you actually played WT? I highly suspect it wouldn't even amount to 3 games :)
In reply to Wlk777
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15 years ago
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Wlk777
How much did you, Konstantin, actually play WT? I strongly suspect you haven't even played 3 games :)
Konstantin played WT if not more than you, then certainly at a much higher quality.

Moreover, unlike you, not just the SM with SoD settings, but all variants, including MM6 with experience and Mirror with new Griffin Conservatories. A single victory over Term in the Cross Portal on Bay's field is worth something.

(censored) ... :)

Added after 8 minutes
Dirty_Player
What I don't like about WT:
1. Wolf upgrade at 111 in Stronghold
And what, the option with Crag without a strike stack is better? Or perhaps running around with a machine gun at the ready? :)

Thanks to the fast wolf upgrade and their construction, the Barbarian actually became a good town, and not an imba one at that. A perfectly adequate balancing.
2. Pit upgrade without GM2
And what's bad about that? Inferno's native troops are so-so, you can't develop much tempo like with many other towns. But demons come to the rescue.

Combined with everything else, it's a perfectly adequate buff for a complete SoD outsider.
3. Creature experience
Whole volumes have been written on this point...
4. Replacing scrolls with gold
5. Monster specialists
I don't like this either. Working on it...
From this follows the next thing — WT sets a fast game tempo. Vik correctly calls it "Conservatory-Dragon Fly Hive-Dragon Fly Hive-Conservatory-Dragon Utopia-Dimension Door-GG". Whoever keeps up with this tempo wins, whoever doesn't — loses. IMHO this is wrong.
The game tempo is proposed to be reduced slightly in the future. However, strong progress is unlikely to be achieved here, because even in SoD, the mentioned tempo in top player games is practically a must for victory. Heroes has been studied far too thoroughly...
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15 years ago
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>a perfectly reasonable buff for a complete bottom-tier faction.

It's understandable to bring a bottom-tier faction up to an average level. But why make it top-tier?

Cheaper unit costs + the Inferno patch + extremely early demon summoning turns Inferno into a monster!!

***
By the way, the free upgrade for Gorgons in the Swamp is also a bad idea.
In reply to Lider1
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15 years ago
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Lider1
>a perfectly reasonable buff for a complete underdog.

It's understandable to turn an underdog into an average player. But why make them a top player?

Reduced unit costs + Inferno patch + extremely early demon summoning turns Inferno into a monster!!

***
By the way, the free upgrade for Gorgons in the Swamp is also not a good idea.
This is a good point. ASM should take it into account.
In reply to Lider1
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15 years ago
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Lider1
>quite a reasonable buff for a complete SoD outsider.

Making an outsider into a mid-tier is understandable. But why make it top-tier?

Cheaper unit costs + Inferno patch + super-early demon splitting turns Inferno into a monster!!
What monster, are you talking about? :)

Inferno with all its perks is valued roughly like Barb-Conflux-Dungeon and maybe Castle (on XL+U templates, meaning various Jebuses don't count). Beyond that, it's more a matter of taste than objective strength. That is, it's right in the middle of the list, where Necro and Swamp are planned to be lowered, and to which Tower and Rampart are to be raised.
By the way, free Gorgon upgrade for Swamp is also nonsense.
Agreed here.
In reply to Wicc
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15 years ago
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Wicc
Inferno with all the bells and whistles is valued roughly like Barb-Conflux-Dungeon and maybe Castle (on XL+U templates, meaning Jebus-type ones don't count).
With experience, Inferno becomes a total beast...

As for Barb, I think it has too many wolves at the start... The stack isn't just striking, it's devastating!
By the way, a free Gorgon upgrade for Swamp is also nonsense.
+1! Also, bring the Fairy upgrade back into the game!
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15 years ago
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Wicc
What monster are you talking about? :)

There are already a lot of demons on the first map. - Like this one.

Inferno seems like an average, unremarkable faction due to its unpopularity in Soda. It's also due to the low number of players who have experience with it. But those who have tried to play it and "grind" with it in Soda will find that Inferno becomes a fairy tale in War Trials under their leadership.

***
Well, in another year or so, or even longer, when everyone learns how to play it at a high level, then you will realize - it's just like with Fortress :D
In reply to Wicc
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15 years ago
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Wicc
5. monster specialists

I don't like this either. We're working on it...

And what's the point of getting rid of them?
For example, I really enjoy playing with Das, Galkin, Klancy, and many others... why cut them? They're great, especially with a 25% bonus. It would be better to remove or reduce the bonus of overpowered starting heroes; I hope I don't need to list them.
In reply to Lider1
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15 years ago
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Lider1
A whole wagon of demons is already in the first place. - Here's how it looks.

Inferno seems like an average, unremarkable faction due to its unpopularity in SoD. Few people play it. But those who tried to "grind" with it in SoD will find that in WoTA, under their leadership, Inferno becomes a fairy tale.

**
Just give it another year and a half, or more, until everyone learns how to play it at a high level, and then you'll realize - it's just like with Brogh:<0xD8><0x9D>
People have been playing with demon factions in TE/WoTA for at least 4 years, and they haven't found any overpowered strategies.

Personally, I never played Inferno in SoD. Maybe that's why I don't have such a psychological contrast with it - it's just a Castle, with its own pros and cons. With a good starting position, it quickly becomes powerful, with an average one, it's okay, but it lags behind in tempo, and with a poor one, it risks not getting out of the early game. This is with Marik. With Fiona, it doesn't become as powerful, but it's also much easier to get out of the early game.

Added 14 minutes later
Javdet
And why nerf them?
For example, I really enjoy playing with Das, Galkin, Klansi, and many others... why nerf them? They're cool heroes, especially with a 25% bonus. It's a different story to completely remove or reduce the bonus of overpowered starting heroes; I hope I don't need to list them.
Well, if you're going to nerf, you should do it for everyone at once. Right now, people only play with monster specialists for all Castles (except for the Tower). Offensers, defenders, logisticians, and others are not popular. But I want there to be several equally viable starting heroes, and not just monster specialists. And it should be easy to switch to other heroes if you only take the starting hero because of their troops.

I don't know how to achieve all this without reducing health.
In reply to Wicc
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15 years ago
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Wicc

Well, if we're going to nerf, then everyone at once. Right now, for all towns (except Tower), people play exclusively with monster specialists. Offense-defense-logistics heroes and others are not in demand. But we want several equally viable starting heroes, not just monster specialists. And it should be easy to switch to other heroes if the starter is only taken because of the troops.

How to do all this without cutting health, I have no idea.

Standard starters:

1 Castle - Vala
2 Rampart - Ivor, sometimes Mephala or Kyrre
3 Snow - doesn't matter
4 Inferno - Marusya, Fiona, Calh
5 Necro - Gosha
6 Dungeon - Miner
7 Barb - Tyras
8 Swamp - Brogh
9 Conflux - Monere, sometimes Kalt

It turns out the majority are specialists of levels 1-2, sometimes level 3, exceptions being Brogh, Monere and Marusya. Maybe we should distribute health %% like 1st - 3%, 2nd - 7, 3rd - 10, 4th - 15, 5th - 20, 6th - 25, change the skills of the currently unneeded Rashka, Sinka, Clancy, Fafner, Conflux fighters to something very necessary, and of course give Brogh, Monere and Mashka something completely useless as a 2nd skill (for example Monere - gold, Brogh - diplomacy, Marusya - tent). Though this won't spoil Brogh much :(

Logistics heroes must definitely return - 3% would be just right
Think about snow specialists and give Bron crocodiles back
15 years ago
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Ah, balance, balance... Making health percentages like that (as Javdet wrote) isn't a good idea, in my opinion... especially since it won't affect Brog, but for the Miner, a 3% health bonus from 5/6 Trog units is what? It turns out you'd have to give at least 1 health point... then there's not much point to these 3%. It's simpler to either give a fixed health bonus or a smaller percentage, for example, 10-15%. For the first level, this would be about 1 health point, and for other levels, it would be approximately (1-2) * level of health, for example, for an Ufretin, 15% of the Dwarf's 20 health is 3 health, and for Brog, 15% is 10-11 health. Another option is to give special units a percentage of their own health equal to their level (minimum 1, rounded down) or equal to level * 2. Then Brog and Shakk would be as strong as they are now, but only after reaching level 25, but this would weaken other special units... although Vale and Tirasu would be almost as strong, only with 11 health instead of 12 for each of their subordinate units. In general, all these arguments are largely based on experience, which is why imbalance occurs... because with special units, you immediately have both quantity and quality. I have a suggestion on how to reduce/balance special units, not too drastically, of course: give special units 3 stacks of level 3 units instead of 2 stacks of level 3 and 1 stack of level 1. Then the Miner would be in trouble not only with the arrival of Lore, but also with Ajiki, and the Elves would become stronger with Ivor (Vik already said that the Elves are weak in terms of attack power in the current situation, as is the Tavern). For Humans, Edrick would be interesting, especially if the Griffin Nest is separated from the Barracks and Blacksmith. And you could also suggest separating Mages from Golems and, as an option, adjusting Josie's skills to create another decent hero in the Tower. In general, I once had the idea to make all heroes have 2 stacks instead of 3, and to return the army of 2 heroes in the Tavern. This would look more reasonable... than Vale with 30 Archers at the start or Shakk with over 100 Trolls. By the way, I would like to balance the Dwarves, Ghouls, and Golems. Even as support units, they are very ineffective because of the need to move them to important battles... Ghouls are fast, but they are fragile and there are always few of them, as they are all used as decoys against the Grem. I suggest giving 1 point of maxuron to Dwarves, Ghouls, and Golems, and weakening Ghouls in terms of health (-2), but increasing their growth in the city (+1) and increasing the number of Ghouls at the start for heroes (+1). Do not change the adventure value of Ghouls (since damage + and health -). A separate word about the Tent skill. It's better not to give it to anyone except special units for now, because a script has already been made for the Tent, which will heal not 1-x, where x is the level, but will heal a-b, b-c, c-d, i.e., not from 1, but from the end of the previous range, and then "imbalanced" will be the Tent users with a group of 5-7 level units. Regarding experience, in my opinion, it's better to play without it... the differences are too large, especially the damage bonuses are significant... and the percentage of health for special units with unit experience is generally illogical. I believe that with experience, the imbalance of special units in terms of monsters is much more noticeable.
In reply to Javdet
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15 years ago
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Javdet
Maybe it would be better to distribute the health bonus like this: 1st - 3%, 2nd - 7%, 3rd - 10%, 4th - 15%, 5th - 20%, 6th - 25.
Yeah, 3% to the Troglodyte's life will be a huge boost :D :D :D. Maybe it should be the other way around? ;)
15 years ago
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forget about weakening specialists. it's fine as is. maybe remove the additional bonus.
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15 years ago
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The idea that specialists need to be nerfed is 100% correct. I think the following system would be optimal: instead of 25% for everyone, we set 1 health point for level 1, 2 for level 2, and so on. As a result, Mary would have a bonus of 4 health points, and Brox would have 6. This would logically nerf the two main specialists while not depriving the others. Regarding Ruska, Synke, Klansi, and Fafnir, I completely agree with Javdet – they need to be buffed. They are promising heroes, but their skills are so bad that it's painful to even look at them. I would give Logisticians a permanent bonus of 10% instead of 5%.

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