Posts from Poll regarding changes to the AK regulations.

Judging by the correspondence of the Arbitration Committee members in this topic, the poll was indeed initiated by Pasha...

It seems that Pasha and Petya were involved.

It seems like it was Pasha and Petya's idea after all.

Judging by Petya's posts, he came up with the idea of voting already during the process, on a general basis. And judging by Numvan's vote, the other members of the Arbitration Committee were not aware of it.

Continuation.

We also have tournaments with the status of "fan" tournaments. These are usually small, themed tournaments (new template, exotic rules, testing some ideas) with a limited number of participants (and you don't always have time to sign up for them), which arise spontaneously (how can you include a Might & Magic vs. Heroes tournament in the schedule if the idea arises and you want to implement it right away?). The organizers themselves decide what the rules are, what the requirements are for the participants, and the regulations...

Neither in official nor in fan tournaments does anyone force anyone to participate. The player decides for himself whether the rules, the composition of the participants, and whether he trusts the organizer are of interest to him... Accordingly, the organizers also decide whether to include the player in the tournament or not. If the organizer has had serious problems with one of the players in a previous tournament or there are grounds to suspect these problems in the future (and this is not only about suspicions of cheating, but also about the player's tendency to cause scandals, not adhering to deadlines, recent registration, lack of gaming experience can also cause distrust), then, most likely, he will privately ask this player not to participate in the tournament and not to create difficulties for the organizer. Also, in official tournaments, there is a restriction on the participation of players with a Black Mark. In fan tournaments, there is no such restriction; the organizer decides for himself whether to include such a player in his tournament.

Also, about the Black Mark. We have had 6 Black Mark awards in our section. 3 times, the cheaters were caught before the creation of the Arbitration Committee (AC), and 3 times, the decision was made by the AC. Also, several more Black Marks were awarded in other sections (without the participation of our AC). By the way, if Black Marks had existed earlier, we would have been warned about the participation of our first cheater in the Times of Year tournament (Artem, remember?). He had already managed to cheat in another section.
In my opinion, it doesn't matter at all who/what the Black Mark was awarded by. Currently, our section's AC makes the final decision. Perhaps the rules will change, and the decision will be made by a vote on the forum. Therefore, there is no point in equating the Black Mark and the AC. No matter how the Black Mark was awarded, it indicates a violation of the fair play rule.

Regarding the initiator of the poll. Yes, Pavel sent me a message on Monday, August 18, via ICQ and asked me about the amendment. As I understand it, the reason was a personal appeal from one of the players to Pavel. This player had reasonable suspicions that his opponent in the tournament was a cheater (just in case, I will immediately say that this is not vitalic). As I understand it, the organizer of this fan tournament does not consider it necessary to remove this player from the tournament, even if cheating is recognized and a Black Mark is given. Therefore, I suggested that Pasha discuss this on the forum (by "discuss" I meant "expressing one's thoughts, exchanging opinions, developing an option acceptable to everyone..., and not immediately voting"), as I did not fully understand what he meant (the message contained some confusion in terminology, and I somehow assumed that all organizers know what a Tournament Committee (TC) is, official and fan tournaments, ...), and Pavel was not online. He also did not send me the exact wording of the amendment. I also didn't understand what the AC had to do with it. Moreover, I am not a member of the AC and I am not aware of what is being discussed there. And then, after getting acquainted with the proposal and discussions on the forum, I got the impression that other organizers also did not understand the meaning. I tried to figure it out on my own, but it didn't work, and on Sunday I contacted Pavel.

Here is the proposed amendment to the rule:
Having a Black Mark under a user's avatar closes access to all tournaments organized on the resource.
I believe that EVERY WORD in the rule should carry semantic weight and mean what it means.
The word "resource" is highlighted in red. That is, the meaning of the changes seems to be in this. By this word, it is generally understood to mean the entire HW forum, all sections. It is not clear how our TC will monitor what is happening in other sections.
I asked Pasha. It turned out that it only refers to our HOMM3 online section. You can play mafia.

Cheating is different, and tournaments are different.
For example, there is map hacking. Can a map hacker participate in TC3? Well, why not?
Or, someday, map hacking will be absolutely impossible in WT, and we will hold FB tournaments on this version. Then the restriction on participation will be unnecessary.
Pavel also agreed with this.

In the end, it turned out that the amendment should be approximately the following:
Having a Black Mark under a user's avatar closes access to all those tournaments (both official and fan), in which that type of cheating for which the Black Mark was given can be applied and used to his advantage.

The question arises, for example, can Wicc organize a fan tournament of E**i vs. vitalic? And will 2-3 more players want to join them? Voluntarily and in a sound mind...
According to this rule, it is not possible.
What will we do? Will one of the moderators close the tournament topic? In my opinion, this is an abuse of power by the moderator. If E**i, vitalic, and others want to play, and Wicc is ready to judge them, then there is no violation of the forum rules, and the moderators have no right to interfere.

Or we will come up with some kind of rehabilitation tournaments. But according to the rule, it is not possible to hold them...

And another question. What should I do with the season? This is an official tournament. But I can't forbid players from playing with those they want, whether there is a Black Mark or not. I can't delete reports.

Therefore, the conclusion is as follows.

Yes, I believe that since I wrote the current rule:

Having a Black Mark under a user's avatar closes access to all tournaments organized by the TC.

much has changed, and the rule needs to be edited.

It will look something like this:
Having a Black Mark under a user's avatar closes access to all official tournaments in which that type of cheating for which the Black Mark was given can be applied and used to his advantage.
If the Black Mark was issued during the tournament, the player must be disqualified and excluded from further participation in the tournament.

I am waiting for clarifications and suggestions from players and organizers. I will think more about the wording.

Regarding the vote. I suggest that Pavel declare it invalid, because, firstly, a completely incorrect wording was proposed for the poll, and in this form, it is impossible to make an amendment, and, secondly, it is also legally impossible to correct the wording after the results are summed up, and, thirdly, as it seems to me, many did not fully understand what they were voting for and against, I admit my guilt in not conveying information to everyone, I tried to correct this with lengthy theoretical reasoning.

Thus, the question remains open as to whether the rule should be extended to fan tournaments.
There is no point in starting a new poll.
The results of the vote show that players generally do not want to play with cheaters.
Personally, I, as a player, do not like to play with cheaters, and, as an organizer, I will not include a cheater (if he has the opportunity to cheat) in my tournament (official or fan).
What will other organizers say?

For example, there's a maphack. Can a maphacker participate in Tournament Committee 3? And why not, actually?

It's clear right away – you, Pyotr, don't know much about Tournament Committee 3 :D

It's clear you, Peter, don't know much about Heroes of Might and Magic III:D

I don't know anything at all. But is maphacking still a big deal there?

I don't understand at all. Does map hacking also play a role there?

Knowing your opponent's choice (I won't say how to do it – many people know, and those who don't, don't need to) significantly increases your chances of winning. In other words, in TC3, you need to choose a tactic in advance – for example, take a Berserk with a vulnerability sphere or a specific set of troops with specific skills. The number of options is limited; if you know in advance what your opponent will choose, you can adjust your own choice. For example, against a Berserk with a vulnerability sphere, take an anti-Berserk amulet (well, that's a bit of a cheap tactic) or water magic – you have very good chances of winning. The only thing you can do is require the champion to make their choice first.

Artem, do you remember?

Of course! You brought it up yourself.

No matter how the Cheater Mark of Shame is awarded, it indicates a violation of fair play rules.

It only indicates, it doesn't obligate anyone to do anything.
I will stick to my opinion. The Cheater Mark of Shame is just a red flag, not only for the organizer, but for everyone!!!! Player X messed up then and there, for this and that. Everyone knows, everyone sees. But Vasya will play with him and will continue to play, Kolya doesn't care about anything or anyone, and Ivan is principled and doesn't care about Player X. If I try to take into account the personal opinion of even all my 23 players, my brain will melt. Why do I need that? They told me a couple of times: "It's a matter of principle, can it be fixed?" The answer is: yes, no problem! That's all.
I don't think the wording you suggest should be introduced. (I understood the poll approximately as you wrote it).
Freedom for the organizers!!!! We are, after all, reasonable people, and if not, this can be resolved through ISQ, PM, or something else. AK in the end.
In the end, regulation can and should be done, in my opinion, through the official/unofficial nature of the tournaments.
It is not written down, as far as I can read on the forum. I try to do this regularly, and during my time working at the cafe - April 2008 / May 2009 - I read almost all the messages in the online 3 section.
I doubt I could have missed a post with a phrase like, for example, the tournament "Selection for the Final Battle X" was agreed with the Creator as official, and from this date has such status.
Peace!!!
\,,/

The questions for him remained unanswered. It seems I need to clarify the situation.

So, what's the problem? Clarify it. What are you interested in? What do you want to find out and clarify? Ask.

The question arises, for example, can Wicc organize a fan Tournament of E**i vs. vitalic? And will 2-3 more players want to join them? Voluntarily and in a sound mind...
According to this rule, it's not allowed.
What will we do? Will one of the moderators close the tournament topic? In my opinion, this is an abuse of moderator authority. If E**i, vitalic, and others want to play, and Wicc is willing to judge them, then there is no violation of the forum rules, and moderators have no right to interfere.

Exactly. And that's what I'm talking about. It's just a hassle to clearly convey obvious things.
It's clear that they shouldn't be allowed into "official" Tournaments like the FB World Championship, I think the organizers understand this perfectly well. As Tema noted, everyone is reasonable (although I wouldn't vouch for myself)).

But there's no point in starting a new poll.
The voting results show that players generally don't want to play with cheaters.
Personally, as a player, I don't like playing with cheaters, and as an organizer, I wouldn't include a cheater (if he has the opportunity to cheat) in my tournament (official or fan).
What will the other organizers say?

I'll say that, in my opinion, there's no need for any specific wording regarding the World Championship, but if you want to be very literal, you can. The one you're suggesting is fine; if necessary, I'll vote for it.

Thus, the question remains open as to whether the rule should apply to fan Tournaments.

Close it. There's no need to restrict fan Tournaments. They are fan Tournaments for a reason, so that you can have fun and be creative.

You can play Mafia.

Thanks, you made my day)) :smile20:

Artem, don't get upset. Everything is fine

I’ll reiterate. In my opinion, the decision of whether or not to include a player with a Clash of Heroes title in a tournament should be made by the organizer. Players, as a form of protest, can choose not to participate in a tournament where a Clash of Heroes title holder is included. However, we should only encourage this by persuading everyone to vote for the "No" option, so that the amendment is not adopted. Ignoring the decisions of the Arbitration Committee is not our method. And if 2/3 vote for the "Yes" option, then nothing can be done; no one will be able to include a player with a Clash of Heroes title in the tournament. (However, only the votes of those who are eligible to vote according to the rules should be counted.)

....It will look something like this:
Having a Black Mark under a user's avatar closes their access to all official Tournaments in which that type of cheating, for which the Black Mark was given, can be applied and used to their advantage.
If the Black Mark was issued during a Tournament, the player should be disqualified and excluded from further participation in the Tournament.

I am waiting for clarifications and suggestions from players and organizers. I will think more about the wording.

Based on the voting. I suggest that Pavel declare it invalid, because, firstly, a completely incorrect wording was proposed for the poll, and in this form, it is impossible to make amendments, and secondly, it is also legally impossible to correct the wording after the results are summarized, and, secondly, as I think, many did not fully understand what they were voting for and against; I admit my fault in not conveying the information to everyone, and I tried to correct this with lengthy theoretical reasoning.

Thus, the question remains open as to whether the rule should be extended to fan Tournaments.
There is no point in starting a new poll.
The results of the vote show that players generally do not want to play with cheaters.
Personally, as a player, I don't like playing with cheaters, and, as an organizer, I will not include a cheater (if he has the opportunity to cheat) in my Tournament (official or fan).
What will other organizers say?

I do not think that the wording that was proposed is so incorrect that it is necessary to declare the Poll invalid.

The section of the Resource where the Topics for Tournaments, Seasons, etc. are located is called "Treshka Online." When I replaced the word "TK" with the word "Resource," I considered it logical that the word "Resource" would refer specifically to Online Treshka, since the AC, as an authority for resolving controversial situations, makes decisions regarding Online Treshka games.

I believe the poll should be closed on August 30.


Against the participation of a player with a Black Mark, even in a fan Tournament.
Peter, the results of the current Poll will give an answer to the question: "should the rule be extended to fan Tournaments."

Let's move on to the voting results.

The amendment is not accepted because less than 2/3 of the Vol'da Players voted for it, and such a fundamental change cannot be introduced by a simple majority of votes.

In this regard, as I already wrote, I am resigning from the Vol'da AC.

Well, let Spirit now enjoy the freedom to accept cheaters in tournaments, which is what he wanted. It would be fair for him to withdraw himself now. IMHO.

In this regard, as I already wrote, I am withdrawing from the AK Vold committee.

Pash, why this blackmail?

Pash, why this blackmail?

He did the right thing – if independent tournament organizations have achieved the right to accept cheaters and ignore the decisions of the AK, then there is not much point in it anymore; now, each member of the AK should think about whether it makes sense to spend their time on almost meaningless work.