Selection for FB-3. — Tournament History online

Registered: 9/26/2008

Posts: 2,556

#362 6/9/2010 9:24 AM UTC

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So, if that's the case, why were all of Vitalik's wins annulled? It's unlikely anyone even looked at his save files. They just marked them as losses. If that's not a double standard, then what is?

Земля нуля.
Все в ней нулево и кукольно.

In reply to Oelm

Registered: 11/23/2007

Posts: 1,231

#363 6/9/2010 9:52 AM UTC

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Oelm

I'm afraid you misunderstood me. A "bot" refers to a player who doesn't participate in the tournament but is among the top players. This is done to equalize the chances of the participants if any player decides to withdraw from the competition before it ends. Then, the bot replaces them in the games that they haven't played yet.

You seem to be wavering in your reasoning – are you suggesting awarding half a point or giving a top player as an opponent?

Oelm, so what are you suggesting? You said a bot from among the top players... Well, I may not be a top player, but Hardcore is wary of me (he admitted that he might lose to me).

Дипломатия - искусство говорить собаке "хорошая собачка" до тех пор пока не найдешь подходящую палку.

In reply to Captain

Registered: 9/26/2008

Posts: 2,556

#364 6/9/2010 10:11 AM UTC

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You're not following. First, the bot is not a participant in the tournament, so what's your point? Second, there are two ways to solve the problem: either replay the game or automatically award the victory to the other player. Both options are reasonable. And there's a third option: disqualify the player who was caught cheating and award the victory. However, it seems there's no way to review his save files right now. So, if the save files were available and the judge found undeniable evidence of maphacking, then yes, that would be the right course of action. But if the evidence of maphacking is not 100% conclusive, then I'm afraid there's nothing that can be done. You can't catch every cheater.

I'm not advocating for either of the two options I suggested; both are acceptable. But I don't understand the "official" approach at all, as it seems to be a clear double standard.

Земля нуля.
Все в ней нулево и кукольно.

Registered: 11/23/2007

Posts: 1,231

#365 6/9/2010 10:20 AM UTC

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I'm in favor of both options. Let's say we take a bot – that's almost the same as the current situation. Why, according to your definition, should a top player who isn't participating in the tournament play? Wouldn't I be more interested in playing a full game than a top player who's just going through the motions? In my case, would the quality of the tournament be better?

Дипломатия - искусство говорить собаке "хорошая собачка" до тех пор пока не найдешь подходящую палку.

In reply to Captain

Registered: 9/26/2008

Posts: 2,556

#366 6/9/2010 10:35 AM UTC

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You already have a tournament with Hardcore. Why do you need another one? If I'm not mistaken.

The bot's skill level should be at least as good as the participants in FB-2. Maybe even better. We can find a player we're confident won't cheat.

Земля нуля.
Все в ней нулево и кукольно.

In reply to Oelm

Registered: 8/19/2007

Posts: 840

#367 6/9/2010 11:29 AM UTC

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Oelm

And there is a third option: to award half a point in the game with the cheater who got caught, who was revealing the map

Prove this to me! Once you prove it, I'll immediately award half a point.
First you remembered Alex for some reason, now you're remembering Vitalik. Not very strong on history, but who will be next?

Oelm

Why, then, in Vitalik's case, were all his victories annulled? It's unlikely anyone even looked at his saves there. Losses were assigned and that's it. If that's not double standards, then what is?

It seems to me that double standards are when the same rules in one tournament are applied differently to different people.
The tournament in which Vitalik was assigned losses was run by another person, it was held on a different resource, under a different system and under different rules, and the situation there was different. There were many saves, many analyses and evidence, and a lot of other things.
Are you even aware that there was far more than just one game in his arsenal?
How can you draw a parallel?
Hardcore assessed the situation adequately and decided not to pour oil on the fire, but no, there are always "fighters for justice"...
Oelm, why are you getting involved in this?
P.S. As if I have nothing better to do than explain obvious things. I have my STATE EXAM tomorrow, please leave me alone. :)

ну это вообще всем аргамездец!© Kash
без авто:smile20:
Человек - игрушка Бога. Этому - то и надо следовать. Надо жить играя.
Платон.

In reply to SpiriTT

Registered: 9/26/2008

Posts: 2,556

#368 6/9/2010 12:03 PM UTC

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Don't mess with my memory; you clearly remember the history worse than I do. Anyone with a sound mind understands what double standards are, and that’s exactly what’s happening now. Regarding the history: there was such a tournament – FB-1. There was this player named Vitalik. No one caught him cheating on ХВ, all disputes were on the portal. But after that, he was excluded from FB-1. Pasha Dubrovin won against him in the tournament. /topic/6217/ Here is the report. But in the final table, Pasha Dubrovin doesn’t have his victory listed. It wasn’t taken into account because Vitalik was excluded, and no one bothered to check whether he had maphacks here or not. And here’s what Spirit thinks:

Yes, something like that happened. But to prove cheating, it is necessary to prove it in each specific game.

The difference in FB-3 is only that here it’s a Swiss system. But it turns out that the result of a game with a cheater who has been caught affects the final distribution of places in the table. I would like to hear the opinion of the tournament judge, Pete, on this matter, since everything is clear with Spirit.

Земля нуля.
Все в ней нулево и кукольно.

Registered: 8/19/2007

Posts: 840

#369 6/9/2010 1:58 PM UTC

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Well, isn't it clear to you???? Can you read?
One

We talked on ICQ—the issue was resolved. Yes, that's how it was. But to prove cheating, it must be proven in each specific game.

(the quote must be given in full so the meaning isn't lost.)
Two

Hardcore assessed the situation adequately and decided not to pour oil on the fire.

and slightly earlier three

I have no intention of disclosing the details—there is no need for that.

We talked together and decided what would be best. Why are you butting in here without knowing the details? The draw is in no way, I repeat absolutely in no way, related to the loser's cheating! It was set for other reasons. And both players agreed to this result at the time.
Regarding Vitalik. I'm telling you again, there were many nuances. After all the investigations, he was given a CMCh. And then, in accordance with point 8 of the rules, he was disqualified and all his results were annulled.
The same point states

8. Players who have a CMCh are not allowed to participate in the tournament. If any player is awarded a CMCh during the tournament, they will be disqualified and their results annulled. The issue of participation in the tournament for players on the Black List is decided by the Organizers on a case-by-case basis.

And it's this "case-by-case basis" that I was talking about.
The loser's cheating has absolutely nothing to do with the result of this game. Absolutely nothing at all.
This player was kicked out of the tournament.
Let's wait for Judge Pete.

ну это вообще всем аргамездец!© Kash
без авто:smile20:
Человек - игрушка Бога. Этому - то и надо следовать. Надо жить играя.
Платон.

In reply to SpiriTT

Registered: 11/14/2007

Posts: 1,494

#370 6/9/2010 2:17 PM UTC

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SpiriTT

Players with a permanent ban are not allowed to participate in the tournament. If any player receives a permanent ban during the tournament, they will be disqualified, and their results will be annulled. The organizers will decide on a case-by-case basis whether players on the Blacklist can participate in the tournament.

It seems that the "case-by-case basis" means that SpiriTT really wants to see someone specific in the finals, just like Platini really wanted the French national team to be in the 2010 World Cup. And read carefully; the "case-by-case basis" is mentioned when considering whether to allow a player with an existing permanent ban to participate in the tournament. However, the provided wording doesn't seem to allow for any exceptions regarding disqualification and annulment of results if a player receives a permanent ban during the tournament.

SpiriTT

...
The loser's cheating has absolutely no bearing on the outcome of this match. Absolutely none...

And how did you figure that out without save files, if you don't mind sharing?

SpiriTT

...We talked in ICQ, and the issue was resolved...

I can imagine how it went: "Look, I have a state exam tomorrow, I don't have time for this."

In reply to PReDS

Registered: 8/19/2007

Posts: 840

#371 6/9/2010 2:51 PM UTC

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PReDS

Individual order is apparently expressed in the fact that SpiriTT really wants to see someone specific in the FB, much like Platini really wanted the French national team at the 2010 World Cup.

Yeah, go ahead and write who I allegedly rigged for? I'm just curious to know the person I'm supposedly pushing in there.

And read carefully, the individual order is mentioned when accepting into the tournament a player who already has a suspended WMC. But as for exclusion from the tournament and annulment of results with a WMC during the tournament, no options are visible in the given wording.

hmm maybe that's right. Does Luzer have a WMC?

I can imagine how it roughly went: "You see, I have my State Exam tomorrow, no time for you."

Yeah, shouldn't have dealt with this at all today. Just ignoring it, IMHO — would have turned out better.
All info is with the tournament judge.
If the organizer wrote that there's no need to go into details, it's probably not without reason.
People who have nothing to do with the tournament are sharpening their claws, showing off their wit, getting indignant, etc... but why?
Now is every HeroesWorld decision seen as having a catch?
Hardcore+ had no idea I had an exam — because I didn't write to him about it.
Made a joke? Good job, go grab yourself a medal from the shelf.

ну это вообще всем аргамездец!© Kash
без авто:smile20:
Человек - игрушка Бога. Этому - то и надо следовать. Надо жить играя.
Платон.

In reply to SpiriTT

Registered: 9/26/2008

Posts: 2,556

#372 6/9/2010 3:14 PM UTC

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Does Loser have a "Champion of Champions" award?

No, he has a medal instead. :D

Земля нуля.
Все в ней нулево и кукольно.

Registered: 8/19/2007

Posts: 840

#373 6/9/2010 3:39 PM UTC

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Yes, I read that he will be added to the blacklist. For now, he doesn't have anything, I clearly messed up here. In that case, you are probably right. But the draw wasn't related to cheating anyway. =)
I ask that you close the topic for now. Pit will come and open it himself.

ну это вообще всем аргамездец!© Kash
без авто:smile20:
Человек - игрушка Бога. Этому - то и надо следовать. Надо жить играя.
Платон.

Registered: 3/9/2008

Posts: 2,468

#374 6/11/2010 6:33 AM UTC

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I was on a business trip. I will contact Artem and write down the decision regarding the "Loser" map. Please refrain from discussing this issue further.
I will also write about the plans for FB-3.
I have opened the topic.

Registered: 10/13/2008

Posts: 1,150

#375 6/12/2010 8:21 AM UTC

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Please issue me a six-month tournament ban, as I'm tired of signing up for everything and then not finishing, and I don't really feel like playing Heroes of Might and Magic III right now, hopefully just temporarily...

Ибу ибуди - хуйдао муди - Шаг за шагом можно достигнуть цели (китайская мудрость)

Кто к нам с пером придёт, тот от пера и погибнет!:smile51: