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Offline SEM_56
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#1311
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Alex_R
Mass haste - is this a hit-and-run?
Mass молитва - is this a hit-and-run?
Mass благо or кровожадность - is this a hit-and-run?
I understand it this way:
1. If the opponent deals damage through magic, the very fact of using it is a hit-and-run!!!
2. Regarding the mass spells listed above, they are not subordinate to the hit-and-run tactic, because when dealing damage with magic, the enemy's troops do not decrease in number (i.e., they remain the same)...
But with mass magic, the number of troops decreases, regardless of whether you countered and attacked a unit, or received damage from the troops!!!
Ушел с героев, пока пряники)
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Offline Wlk777
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#1312
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I don't know, it seems like you guys are getting something mixed up; the rules clearly state what happens. If it said "attempted to cast a combat spell," then yes, but if there's no damage, what's the point of the discussion?
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In reply to Wlk777
Offline Samurai
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#1313
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I don't want to offend anyone, but I'm very concerned that most of the controversial rule questions on this forum have already been discussed and broken down on other websites.
In this controversial situation, there are 4 possibilities:
1) A combat magic attack, i.e., magic hits the enemy without the participation of any troops. (arrow, lightning, ice bolt, wave of death, slay undead, fireball, ring of cold, meteor, chain lightning, Inferno, armageddon, explosion)
2) The use of almost any magic, as almost any magic can change the amount of damage (either by causing it, increasing it, or decreasing it) in various complex and simple situations. I won't even give examples, because a couple of examples won't help, and it's impossible to list them all.
To formulate the rules more precisely, you can either take the first option (as is currently done on the forum http://www.forum.heroes.by/viewtopic.php?t=804&start=0), or the second option, i.e., say that if the attacker casts any magic, they cannot retreat in the first round (this was previously implemented in the forum settings).
You can also apply a third rule option (3), namely, add to the ban (for retreating) the use of certain specific spells by the attacker in the 1st round, in addition to combat magic (for example, haste, mass haste, slow, berserk, etc.).
And there is also a fourth (4) option: to leave the same vague wording that is currently in use. Or, you could play with "cheating" allowed.
Undoubtedly, none of these four rule options can be called the most correct.
The question of whether resistance triggers should be clearly defined.
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Offline SEM_56
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#1314
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The fact remains a fact!!!
You're just playing as the Dark faction!!!
Ушел с героев, пока пряники)
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Offline Wlk777
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#1315
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SEM_56
Fact remains a fact!!!
There was "applying" (usage of debuffs/buffs), it's you who's playing the dark one!!!
How to put it more gently, in the HeroesWorld rules there is NOTHING about "APPLYING" (usage of debuffs/buffs), but there IS about DAMAGE; there is no damage, so there is no hit-and-run either. I don't understand what all the argument is about...
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Offline Erdem
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#1316
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Wlk777
Let me try to put it more gently: the HeroesWorld rules say NOTHING about APPLICATION, only about DAMAGE. If there is no damage, there is no hit-and-run. I don't understand what the argument is about...

I think it's unethical and unmanly to run away in the 1st round after a resist. I couldn't bring myself to do that.

"somehow dealt any damage to the enemy."

Imho, you also need to consider the moral damage to the creature that was about to be blown up.
Человек человеку - друг!
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Offline Medium_HP
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#1317
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loi
If one adheres to the spirit and purpose of this rule, retreat is not an option...

I tried to determine the purpose and understand the spirit of this rule, but it didn't help – I didn't get any definitive results. Therefore, I believe it is most appropriate to follow the letter of the rule. If there is no damage, there is no condition (which is very clearly defined, by the way) under which the rule should apply.
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Offline Kash
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#1318
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Erdem
I think it's unethical and not very manly to run away in the first round after losing. My conscience wouldn't allow it.
Of course, it's ethical to stay and get beaten up for free :) I think it's okay to run away; it wouldn't break any rules. Personally, my conscience wouldn't be bothered.
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Offline Alex_R
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#1319
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Wlk777
In my opinion, damage = 0 is not damage :)
Zero is not that simple, actually... the absence of a result is also a result!
In general, everything is clearly stated in the rules:
<<5.6. Hit-and-run is prohibited: the attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of combat if they used combat magic or any other magic that, in one way or another, inflicted any damage to the opponent. This prohibition does not apply to a hero who is defending.>>
In this case, the conjunction "OR" has a separating character rather than an enumeration, that is, logically, this complex sentence can be written in two simpler sentences:
a) the opponent cannot retreat if they used combat magic
b) the opponent cannot retreat if they used any other (non-combat) magic that, in one way or another, inflicted any damage to the opponent.
Otherwise, the conjunction "AND" should have been used.
The most important thing is that this interpretation absolutely ensures the goal pursued by this clause, that is, to prevent fleeing when using any combat magic (regardless of whether it worked), but regarding the rest of the spells, clarification is needed, since, for example, Berserk can inflict damage to the opponent without using its own units.

Added after 21 minutes
Samurai
I don't want to offend anyone, but I'm very concerned that most of the controversial issues regarding the rules on this forum have already been discussed and broken down on other sites a long time ago.
This is not offensive - but rather a compliment, plagiarism on Hv is not welcome
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Offline Wlk777
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#1320
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Alex_R

In this case, the conjunction "OR" has a separating function rather than an enumerative one; logically, this complex sentence can be written as two simpler ones:
a) the opponent cannot retreat if they have used combat magic;
b) the opponent cannot retreat if they have used any other (non-combat) magic that has inflicted any damage on the opponent.
Otherwise, the conjunction "AND" should have been used.
Incorrect logic. How can the conjunction "AND" be used? It would imply that two spells are cast in one round. So, the conclusion about the separating function is incorrect, especially since the rule was clearly intended to prevent the gradual elimination of the opponent's troops and their retreat, to prevent situations where, having a lot of money and a unit with high speed, one can gradually eliminate the enemy army. So, the main point of the rule is clearly magic that has inflicted any damage on the opponent.
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Offline bRitvo4kA
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#1321
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5.6. Hit-and-run tactics are prohibited: the attacking hero is not allowed to retreat in the first round of battle if they used combat magic or any other magic that, in any way, inflicted damage on the opponent.

The phrase: which in any way inflicted any damage on the opponent fully applies to combat magic or any other magic.

Therefore, if there was no damage (hit), then it is possible to retreat (run).
В дикім полі
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Offline Alex_R
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#1322
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bRitvo4kA
Therefore, if there was no damage (hit), then it is possible to retreat (run).
The so-called "hit" is the cast itself – it was performed (the hero cannot cast spells again in this round after using a spell).
To Wlk777 – don't take it literally that the rules must specifically use the conjunction "and"... simply "or" can combine identical concepts or separate different ones; therefore, everything after the comma applies only to non-combat spells.
What is combat magic? – it is the type of spell that, by definition, deals direct damage to units on the battlefield, so such magic does not need to be specified as magic
that in one way or another deals damage to the opponent.
Let's not argue unnecessarily, because if we nitpick to the end, then in theory, all spells that a hero can cast on the battlefield fall under the concept of combat magic; the remaining spells belong to the class of "adventure" spells.
So, literally, anyone who cast spells like haste, blessing, etc. in the first round, attacked the opponent and retreated, violating this rule.
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Offline Wlk777
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#1323
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Alex_R

to Wlk777 - don't take it literally that the rules must state that the alliance is specifically "and"...
I don't take it that way either; you've built an entire (and, in my opinion, incorrect) theory around it. And I've already explained in the post above why, in the case of resistance, you can comply with both the letter and the spirit of the rules, and Britva also correctly added to that.
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Offline Alex_R
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#1324
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Wlk777
You built an entire (and, in my opinion, incorrect) theory around this.
Okay, list the spells that aren't combat spells but still inflict damage on the opponent... and after which, fleeing is impossible :smile30:
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Offline Wlk777
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#1325
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Alex_R
spells that are not combat spells but still inflict damage on the opponent in some way
This is not a question for me, but for the rule makers. :) Personally, I don't think there are any such spells. However, this has nothing to do with the issue of resistance, IMHO.
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