Necropolis or Castle (Which one is stronger?) — Tactics

Qwerty

7/28/2006 8:33 AM UTC

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Skeletons are stronger only in numbers. Pikemen have a large amount of HP, and that is a significant advantage.
I compared Vampires to Champions for one reason: both can be built in the first week and enter the battle in the second.
Are Death Knights easier to build? Let's compare.
For Cavaliers, you need to build 4 structures with a total cost of 35 wood, 5 stone, and 10,000 gold. Cavaliers are upgraded for free, i.e., at no cost, in the external stable.
For Black Knights, you need to build 5 structures with a total cost of 20 wood, 35 stone, and 13,000 gold. By the way, upgrading them costs an additional 3,000 gold, plus 5 wood and stone, and 2 of all other resources.

Now, the question is: in what sense is building Black Knights more difficult than building Champions?

There is no doubt about the superiority of Vampires over Crusaders and Liches over Monks. But both are rather mediocre ranged attackers, to be honest.

I believe that the early appearance of strong stacks (depending on the situation - Champions, Griffons, in the case of an external dwelling - Crusaders), as well as the normal speed of most combat creatures, are significant advantages for the Knights. Vampires and Skeletons are counter-arguments for the Necromancers. If the game is prolonged, the Necromancers may have 2 advantages - Skeletons and Vampires, while the Knights have only one - Archangels, but a very powerful one. However, a second argument is added to this - greater hero mobility, which almost equalizes the chances.

In reply to Qwerty

Aviator

7/28/2006 11:45 AM UTC

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Qwerty;22114

I compared Vampires to champions for one reason – both build up in the first week and enter the battle in the second.
Is it easier to build Death Knights? Let's compare.
For cavalry, you need to build 4 structures with a total cost of 35 wood, 5 stone, and 10,000 gold. Cavalry is upgraded for free, i.e., for free in the external stable.
For Black Knights, you need to build 5 structures with a total cost of 20 wood, 35 stone, and 13,000 gold. By the way, upgrading them costs an additional 3,000 gold, plus 5 wood and stone, and 2 of all other resources.

All of this is true. The only problem is that there might not be enough resources at the beginning of the map, or if there are, it will be just enough to build all these levels. The question is, what to do at the beginning of the second week when there is no money.
This strategy can only be implemented when you see that there are enough resources to invest 2,000 in the second week; otherwise, you give your opponent an advantage due to slower development.

It's easier with Vampires. You build them in the first week. But Vampires need an upgrade as much as they need air, and that's already 10 crystals + 10 gems. No matter how many times I've played, it's rarely possible to build an upgrade at the beginning of the 2nd week (usually the end of the 2nd, beginning of the 3rd). Without an upgrade, Vampires are nothing, just... support for skeletons.

Qwerty;22114

When the game is drawn out, Necromancer can have two arguments – skeletons and vampires, while Knights only have one – Archangels, but a very powerful one. However, this argument is supplemented by a second – greater hero mobility, which almost equalizes the chances.

We can argue about the mobility of Humans. I agree that they have more speed and a stable. But you can't fight as effectively with just cavalry as you can with Vampires. By the second month, the Necromancer can go wherever he wants. 32-40 Vampires can kill quite large troops (they huddle in a corner and attack one group at a time). Cavalry, even though they run well, it hurts to lose them.

In my opinion, it's not worth dragging out the game with the Necromancer. If there is an opportunity to attack, you have to attack.

The advantage of Humans is the ability to travel with almost all types of troops without fear of encountering an enemy. The Necromancer travels with Vampires + skeletons, and the second hero's troops are behind. Plus, Humans can summon Angels in the Angel Hall (the most reliable support for Humans). Necromancers try to compensate for all this with skeletons.

Qwerty

7/28/2006 11:54 AM UTC

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And on most maps, in addition to champions, there will be angels from the Conservatory. Therefore, you will have to fight with more than just cavalry. Moreover, wyverns from the hives will almost certainly be added to this army.
That makes three units.
And in Utopian maps, there will be units that can deliver the decisive blow, for example, enough Crusaders or Griffins (not to mention the three units mentioned above).
And there is no need to prolong the game – take Cil, arrive at the opponent's castle on the first week, and that's it (just kidding).

Aviator

7/28/2006 12:56 PM UTC

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I agree about the wyverns and additional angels. But a Necromancer can also recruit them. There are many tactics and strategies; in my reasoning, I focused on battles using only my own troops. If you take into account all the game's features, there are so many options that you won't notice all the details. And the situation can change at any moment. That's why I love this game. Only in this game can you play with friends, drinking beer from a bottle and talking about life.

Qwerty

7/28/2006 1:03 PM UTC

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I agree, a Necromancer can gather them too. But Necromancers move slower, so a Knight will gather them faster. And then they can quickly collect Pandoras, and who knows, maybe even Utopias. Mobility is one of the most important factors in Heroes of Might and Magic III, which is why the Logistics skill is so highly valued.

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AmberSoler

7/28/2006 6:20 PM UTC

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Qwerty;22146

Mobility is one of the most important factors in HoMM3, which is why the Logistics skill is so highly valued.

Absolutely. Mobility is a cornerstone of success.

However, the movement range, which you hint at when discussing the advantages of Castle, is not the only determining factor in mobility. Movement management is a combination of many factors. And you undoubtedly know this.

For example, skillful use of chains of hired heroes (for transferring troops and artifacts), timely and reasonable use of dismissal (dismissing/fleeing followed by hiring in an external tavern on the other side of the world), manipulating the arrangement of troop stacks in a hero's army (sometimes, only one correct troop arrangement allows you to avoid movement penalties on the terrain even without the Pathfinding skill), and so on.

All of this can negate the advantages of your opponent's logisticians, who only have it over direct distances. And slow Necropolis units may not be inferior in terms of territory capture speed, even without Logistics. Sometimes, opening a path to an external tavern at the cost of "meat" is much more important than moving fast troops across already cleared territory. And Necropolis units can handle this more effectively.

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AlexeyPank

7/29/2006 9:54 AM UTC

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In addition, magic must be taken into account. Necromancers always get the ability to raise undead (I've never played without this spell). Earth and air magic are also given frequently. As a result, fast skeletons + undead restoration, and then humans are simply outmatched. Since resurrection is already a fourth-level spell, and it's not given very often. And building archangels requires some skill. Moreover, since we're talking about large maps, there's approximately a 70% chance that necromancers will collect their highest-tier artifacts. And that's VERY serious.

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Zingel

8/28/2006 6:51 AM UTC

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AmberSoler;22187

For example, skillful use of chains of hired heroes (for transferring troops and artifacts), timely and reasonable use of dismissal (firing/escaping with subsequent hiring in an external tavern on the other side of the world),...

But what about the army? In this case, you won't be able to transfer it. (Unless you have 1,000,000 gold, of course.)

AmberSoler;22187

... manipulating the arrangement of troop stacks in the hero's army (sometimes only one correct arrangement of troops allows you to avoid a movement penalty on the terrain, even without the Pathfinding skill), and so on.

How so? Can you elaborate?

Added 1 minute ago
Another important point was forgotten.
Humans (and others, except for necromancers) can be inspired! And they will make an additional move in battle. But necromancers move exactly once per round. This is a serious drawback.

Герои - это клёво.

In reply to Zingel

AmberSoler

8/28/2006 7:00 AM UTC

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Zingel;30250

But what about the army? In that case, you can't move it. (Unless you have 1,000,000 gold, of course.)

We're talking about various tactics... Armies are passed along the chain if possible... Dismissing is clear – you don't take the troops with you, but sometimes just the presence of the hero in the right place at the right time can solve all the problems...

What do you mean? Can you elaborate?

If there are neutral units in the army that have a movement penalty on certain terrain, you can avoid it. If you place a neutral unit to the left of a unit for which the terrain is native, the hero will move without a penalty. For example, you can move mummies and nomads through a swamp without them incurring a penalty, as long as all the other units are swamp dwellers...
Place neutrals in the leftmost slot(s) when arranging troops, and there will be no movement point (MP) problems...

Another important point has been forgotten.
Humans (and others, except for necromancers) can be inspired! And they will make an additional move in battle. But necromancers only move once per round. This is a serious drawback.

But the opposite is also true... Necromancers will never have the misfortune that sometimes happens to humans... So, it's all equal here...

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RomaShSh

8/28/2006 7:29 AM UTC

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With a skillful approach, Barbarians can crush any race with minimal losses!

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AmberSoler

8/28/2006 7:38 AM UTC

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RomaShSh;30262

With a skilled approach, Barbarians can crush any race with almost no losses!

Slightly off-topic... Please read the topic title...

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RomaShSh

8/28/2006 9:57 AM UTC

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Sorry, I just saw that they were discussing it there and decided to join in!
It's not that common for people to have such bad luck!

††RomaShSh††[/FONT][/SIZE]

:cool: :cool: :cool: :) :) :)

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AmberSoler

8/28/2006 10:28 AM UTC

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RomaShSh;30297

It's not that uncommon for humans to experience setbacks!

Take a human army, add a couple of skeletons, some kind of wyvern, and see... Setback after setback... That is, it does happen! But with Necropolis, it never does... Which is what we're actually discussing.

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In reply to AmberSoler

Zingel

8/28/2006 12:27 PM UTC

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AmberSoler;30303

Take a human army, add a couple of skeletons, some kind of wyvern, and see... Failure after failure... Meaning it happens! But for necros — never... Which is exactly what we're talking about.

This is all correct, of course :)

But, as a rule, when it comes to the final battle, one hero has all undead, and the other has all humans.
I don't exclude the presence of one "random" stack of very powerful units in the army, but by the final battle, any competent hero will either pick up a couple of artifacts that increase morale, or visit a few morale caches, or have Leadership, etc., or maybe all three :)
But for a necro, no matter how you spin it, forget about it! The only way out for him is an artifact that removes the opponent's morale bonus.

So, it's more likely that the humans will be inspired! :)

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