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Posts from Appeals Committee. Disputed situations in tournaments.
Here are the rules for handling suspected cheating situations: /topic/at/271167/ It was posted on July 22, 2009. The players had no objections to any of the points. Pit for LM
... 2. Also, any HeroesWorld user (not necessarily a game participant) can report suspicions of cheating in the AC (to any of its members), if the game/games were played on any other resource in any online HOMM3 tournament between HOMM3 players registered on HeroesWorld...
By the way, one of those games was played in Clanwar and is awaiting a decision from the Organizer of that tournament. The AC acted strictly within the framework of these rules, and only decisions that the AC had the authority to make, granted to it by the players and the Creator, were adopted.
However, the issue of rehabilitating punished players remains open and requires a solution. Moreover, it is necessary to consider cases of other rule violations as well — failure to confirm reports, delaying the completion of games, neglecting tournaments... There are many controversial situations, and every small detail needs to be regulated.
2Kyle: The Vitalik - Aldegir match was played as part of the tournament on HW. Pit for LM
However, the issue of rehabilitating banned players remains open and requires a solution.
When the members of the Arbitration Committee voted, they were all inclined to give a temporary ban, as everyone understands that it is impossible to punish for life and that even for murder, they do not give life sentences.
To everyone who expresses dissatisfaction with the actions of the Arbitration Committee, please offer a better option/system that will work, and we will gladly work on it.
For those who suggest studying more materials on this issue, we can provide ALL the games that we studied, and let him review at least half of them.
I think that I can speak for the entire Arbitration Committee that making THIS decision was very, very difficult!
Wicc
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Everyone understands that a lifetime ban is not justified.
I, for example, don't understand.
In my opinion, cheaters should be banned for life. It's too difficult to detect and prove cheating. Therefore, the punishment should be proportionate to the danger to the community. And the danger is very great.
I could understand it if the person repented, confessed, and promised not to do it again. Then it would be possible to forgive and allow them to play further. But this is clearly not the case.
Besides, cheating is like a drug; it's quite difficult to quit, and there is a very high risk that in a crucial moment, their hand will tremble. And Vitalik has been using it for many years. Do you think there is a chance of self-healing?
Of course! He faces the threat of becoming an outcast, so he will try to play fairly. The probability of this is simply enormous. Yes, it's difficult to prove cheating, but it can be even more difficult to prove intentional killing.
Of course! He faces the threat of being ostracized, so he will try to play fairly. The probability of this is simply enormous.
The probability of this is minimal. He will rather try not to get caught. Moreover, all the methods of detecting maphacks have been clearly explained to him. With some ingenuity and understanding of the game, it will not be difficult to bypass them.
Here are the rules for reviewing situations involving suspicions of unfair play: /topic/at/271167/ It was posted on July 22, 2009. Players had no complaints regarding any of the points.
Mage Guild, in this case, point 7 was violated:
7. If the members of the Arbitration Committee believe that the accusations are justified, then a publicly accessible topic is created on a resource independent of Heroes Community (ХВ), where all materials submitted by the accusing party are placed, edited so that nowhere does it contain the nickname of either the suspect or the accuser. This topic is created to create a complete and objective picture - accusations, defense, involvement of independent experts, public discussion. A link to the topic is sent to interested parties and everyone who wishes.
I highlighted what was violated on the forum. And as a result, we got what we got. I personally have serious doubts about the objectivity of the decision made on the forum. That's why I suggest conducting an independent investigation on our portal. Since anonymity can no longer be maintained, I propose a format for reviewing the situation in a separate thread, where only members of the Arbitration Committee and the accused can post. And based on this investigation, a decision should be made.
Good luck.
Кто состоянием своим доволен, тому жить весело. (с)Алекса́ндр Васи́льевич Суво́ров
Point 7 has been observed. The discussion took place, and questions were asked of the accused via ICQ. He himself insisted that this topic be discussed on the forum, and we cannot restrict the portal.
As far as I know, these games were played on HP. I read the "discussion" about it, and I can't think of a better word than "mess" to describe what happened.
Due to the lack of well-reasoned explanations from the defense, its representatives turned the topic into this very "mess." Apparently, they had no other methods of defense left. And for those who understand what is being discussed, it is not difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff, ignoring arguments that are "about nothing" and missing the point. Let me give an example. I won't talk about the trial, as not everyone attended it or saw it on TV. But everyone has taken exams in school/university. So, if an examinee talks a lot but doesn't get to the point, it usually means that they don't know the answer to the question. The examiner gives them a failing grade or a C (at least they didn't stay silent), and those who understand the question are clear about it. But for the uninformed, it seems like, "Oh! The professor remembered his tardiness to lectures! How he answered! He talked so much! And they kept asking him additional questions endlessly!" - does that sound familiar? - it was something like that. Kyle
Why was the player punished here based on that topic? Analogy: A person violated the law in one country (1), was caught there, and punished. After that, in another country (2), he was punished a second time based on the court ruling from the first country (1). Is that stupid? I think it is.
Just so you know, there are also international crimes and, accordingly, international criminals, and Interpol. I don't think I need to explain further. Kyle
I think the poll is not very well designed. because no one will ever choose the second option, even if Vitalik's nickname is replaced with any other nickname. because no one will give 100% confidence in a person.
Note that question #1 about Vitalik's cheating is phrased in the same way, where even those who have some doubts about it would find it difficult to give a definitive, 100% answer. For some reason, there were no problems with this, but with the affirmative answer, considering the "presumption of innocence," it was much easier - but the result is clear.
The probability of this is minimal. He will most likely try not to be detected. Especially since all the methods of detecting maphacks have been clearly explained to him. With some ingenuity and understanding of the game, it will not be difficult for him to bypass them.
You are quite clear and reasonable.
1. Someone is cheating. (Let's assume) 2. It will not be difficult for him to bypass the methods of detecting maphacks because he has "some ingenuity." (Certainly) 3. All the others are "not cheaters," although any strong player has some ingenuity. (Oops...)
Could it be that any strong player is a cheater a priori until he proves otherwise? ;)
Soon, other processes will begin, because as long as online gaming exists, so do mutual accusations. And no one is protected... The procedure for labeling has been simplified to the extreme. Soon, either many will receive this label, or it will be necessary to admit that the mechanism is ineffective. And the Committee simply will not be able to objectively handle the flow of complaints from the losing side... It's all going wrong. And, most importantly, the goal has not been achieved, because, as you yourselves admit, cheating is impossible to prove! But the mechanism for dealing with those who are disliked has been perfected... It's as if they are doing something wrong...
An irrelevant question – why was the label needed if "everyone already knows everything"? To humiliate a person? Let him defend himself as best he can? If he doesn't, does that mean he admits it? And if (knock on wood) we punish an innocent person and this is later revealed, will we apologize? Yes? Do you even understand that you have no right to make a mistake? Absolutely no right? What you are doing is an execution for an online nickname, not a punishment for a player...
The passions will subside, but what will happen then? And this is not about a specific person, although the entire mechanism is being tested on his example. It is about the prospect of applying this mechanism in the future... And if next time, for another reason, a decision is made to "delay the ultimate measure, not rush to conclusions," how will this be perceived in light of the current situation? Because now the Committee no longer has the right not to punish any guilty (read: suspected) player with the label! It's a bomb, in short. You just don't see it yet. Unfortunately, for all of us.
Post Scriptum
I urge you not to refer to my words, pointing to my "obvious" hidden motives, because I have a link to a clan in my signature, and it is clear whose side I am on, and so on – these tired arguments. All this has been said many times and will not bring anything new. HW will be mired in scandals and disputes not because there will be those guilty of violating the rules, but because there is no procedure that will help the innocent feel protected from arbitrariness. This entire process, which is considered complete, can be repeated at any time against any player who is disliked. What's wrong with that?
Most of Vitalik’s defenders started their posts with roughly the same words: “I haven’t looked at the replays, but…” and then followed with variations: “Vitalik is a great player => he’s not a cheater” “Vitalik was accused of cheating because he didn’t switch to Team E”, and so on.
But why not start your story with the phrase “I carefully studied the replays and completely disagree with the accusation, because…”
Most of Vitalik's defenders started their posts with roughly the same words: "I haven't looked at the replays, but..." and then followed with variations like: "Vitalik is a great player => he's not a cheater" "Vitalik was accused of cheating because he didn't switch to TE", and so on.
Why not start your story with the phrase "I carefully studied the replays and completely disagree with the accusation because..."
Being able to swing a saber doesn't mean you know how to wield it... Thanks, Dirty, for the constructive feedback!!!!:smile29:
Ушел с героев, пока пряники)
Nagan-4
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Couldn't any strong player be considered a cheater a priori until they prove otherwise?
2 AmberSoler Most leading players have an ironclad alibi that cannot be changed – they play live, in clubs, with witnesses who are also their rivals. I can say about Stinger that in the game, he is an avalanche sweeping everything in its path. About Antal – a large predator on the hunt, about Cobra – vast experience, about Andre – extreme focus, about Joker – some adventurousness and maximum risk, about Bishop – the psychology of a winner. I have seen these top players in action; it is an impressive sight, and you could charge money to watch it. I also saw Vitalik in Michurinsk and Krasnodar, and I can't say anything bad about him; he is a strong player, but there have been and will be many like him. I didn't see when he became a brilliant master. I only read that he played in the final of the $1000 Portal Tournament against Markon and lost 1-2.
So, this is what I have about his club play. 1. CIS Championship in Krasnodar – a quick exit. However, I also had a quick exit, and so did many others. The top 8-9 players were too far ahead in terms of skill, and the rest were left behind. 2. Michurinsk Tournament. 2 wins and 2 losses. He lost to a good player, Mizrael, and to an average player, Khvost. 3. Chaos League. He took 3rd place in one tournament. A very decent result, but many good players made it to the top three. They couldn't win the tournament; only the top players won. The question of Vitalik winning a Chaos League tournament never arose. 4. Mini-match with Markon, a strong player but not Stinger. 1-2.
These results don't match up with his online tournament results. This is where the doubts come from. Other old players have the same doubts; Bay, for example, remembers both the Chaos League and Krasnodar. Add to this the stories about save files... It's not even about the final result, but about the subtleties of the game that immediately distinguish a master of Antal's level from just a good player; a good spectator can immediately see who plays how in a live game.
If there are club tournaments, even if only occasionally, the level of distrust will immediately decrease because it will immediately become clear who plays how in reality.
That's why I suggest conducting an independent investigation on our portal. Since anonymity can no longer be maintained, I propose a format where only members of the Arbitration Committee (AK) and the accused can post in a separate thread. And based on this investigation, a decision can be made.
If you know of facts that prove Vitalik's honesty or can clearly refute the existing evidence against him, then do so. Do you really think that during another investigation, the members of the AK will change their opinion to the exact opposite? I have been closely following the discussions on the portal and can confidently say that I have not seen this much negativity per square centimeter of the screen in a long time. And an "independent investigation on our portal" (c) will bring nothing but the aforementioned negativity. Do we need it?
If you know of facts that prove Vitalik's honesty...
You are interpreting the axiom of jurisprudence in a funny way. :) A difficult case
or you can clearly refute the existing evidence against him, then do so.
Show the existing evidence – properly, with arguments, and not with links to disputes in a parallel world. A difficult case
Do you really think that during yet another investigation, the members of the Arbitration Committee will change their opinion to the exact opposite?
If an investigation was conducted, please provide a link. Did you see it? The decision is final and not subject to appeal... That is, no one ever makes mistakes. I respect that. A difficult case
I have been closely following the proceedings on the portal and can confidently say that I have not seen this much garbage per square centimeter of the screen for a long time.
I agree with every word you say. And is this the procedure you call an investigation? ;) A difficult case
And an "independent investigation on our portal" (c) will not bring anything but the aforementioned garbage. Do we need it?
We don't need it. But the rules require it, read them yourself at least once... There's nothing you can do now... Either change the rules, or conduct the investigation according to the rules, or - you know what needs to be done...
Unfortunately, the meaning of the topic has been lost. The procedure accepted by all members of the Arbitration Committee was violated in the very first case. I agree that no one wants to delve into this problematic and painful issue. So, next time, don't refer to the rules, gentlemen. Because they don't exist here, and everyone understands this, but it seems that most people have made a decision and are therefore happy to let the matter drop, and let whatever happens, happen.
The issue is closed for me. I have said everything I had to say, and I have heard everything that was said to me. There was a little truth in that answer, to be honest. Maybe it's just not my business? Nagan-4
2 AmberSoler Most of the leading players have an ironclad alibi that cannot be changed.
Thank you for your comments, and I have great respect for your position. The question was not about determining guilt or innocence... Read both of my posts. :)
The main question is about the procedure used to combat negative phenomena. It's a barbaric procedure, to be honest. As for the evidence base on which the accusation was built, I won't talk to you about it as a lawyer... Please look for it yourself on this forum... Let's just say that the tribe decided by a majority vote. This has happened many times in history – the majority has the right to self-determination. So, rewrite the rules and put everything in its place.
As they say, "I haven't read it, but I'll say it with full responsibility" :confused: None of Vitalik's defenders want to look into studying the saves and refuting the accusations. They will all continue to talk about universal human values, replacing discussions about the essence of the accusations with banal phrases that have little to do with the matter, or even nonsense like "if he cheated on another resource, what does that have to do with HeroesWorld..." And at the same time, for some reason, none of them vouched for him :confused:
