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Posts from Appeals Committee. Disputed situations in tournaments.
We received a response from the Creator regarding the powers of the Arbitration Committee (AC) and more detailed information about the Black Mark.
Pit for LM
What powers can you grant the AC regarding cheaters within the HeroesWorld HOMM3 online platform (banning from tournaments, conducting a vote among players, awarding the Black Mark)?
Creator
Currently, the AC can confidently rely on:
- votes among players
- adding a user to the "Black List"
- awarding the "Black Mark"
That is, "banning from tournaments" is not within the AC's jurisdiction.
Creator
As I see it now, a more optimal option would be to add to the "Black List" and award the "Black Mark," and the organizers of the respective tournaments have the right to include in the rules of upcoming tournaments, at their discretion, a clause - "Users with black marks cannot participate in the tournament." A major advantage of the "Black Mark" is that it is in the user's profile, which already warns of danger. Another option is to permanently assign the "Black Mark" and then replace it after a certain period with a "Gray Mark," which would allow the user to participate in tournaments in which they could not participate with the "Black Mark," but the presence of the "Gray Mark" would still warn users and organizers. The very presence of the "Black Mark" in the user's profile, as it seems to me, would give the player an incentive to play fairly in order to get rid of it by replacing it with at least a "Gray Mark." It is even possible to provide for an option to completely get rid of the "Marks" after an even longer period of time if the player finally gets rid of the bad habit of violating tournament rules.
The issue of banning from tournaments will be decided by the organizers.
Now, specifically.
During the two weeks at the end of July 2009, the AC received save files for 3 games played by our resource's player, vitalic, with accusations of unfair play (map hacking).
The AC reviewed the proposed save files and deemed it necessary to obtain detailed explanations on certain points of the accusation. An open discussion took place on the forum, and everyone could participate in it.
The AC found the player's and his defenders' explanations unsatisfactory and decided to recognize the accusations as justified and vitalic guilty of map hacking. The results of an open poll, conducted independently of the AC, were also taken into account, in which players were asked to choose one of three options:
1. Vitalic is cheating.
2. Vitalic is an honest player.
3. I don't know.
The first option was chosen by 28 players, the second option was not chosen by anyone, and the third option was chosen by 10 players.
Within the scope of the powers granted to us, the following decision was made:
1) Player vitalic will be added to the "Black List." This will serve as a warning to tournament organizers and players about possible map hacking.
2) A request was sent to the Creator to award him the Black Mark of a cheater.
The decision was made by a majority of votes (6 in favor, 1 against), is final, and is not subject to discussion or appeal.
We are now awaiting the final response from the Creator. Please refrain from commenting.
Wlk777
16 years ago
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Here’s another thought I had. Championship matches shouldn’t be automatically forfeited. A sufficient reason for this could be, for example, an admission of guilt and sincere repentance from the penalized player. Or, if they don’t feel guilty, perhaps they were unfairly accused (and that’s possible; I’m not an expert, but I know that in the 20th century, a huge number of unjust death sentences were handed down) – in that case, let them defend themselves as best they can, and there shouldn’t be a ban for that (except in cases of 100% proven cheating). Something like that, in my opinion.
Now, specifically. During the two weeks at the end of July 2009, three saved games from matches played by our resource's user, vitalic, were submitted to the AK, with accusations of unfair play (map hacking).
Could you please elaborate? Which specific matches were he accused of?
Here's something else I was thinking about... if he doesn't feel guilty... then let him defend himself as best he can...
My friend, this is a quote from your post... Believe me, it wasn't just you who thought that, and for a couple of centuries before you were born, this problem was solved by people who were far from stupid and much less biased than you... and they decided that the principle of "presumption of innocence" is the least of all possible evils. Especially since Wlk777
I'm not a big expert, but I know that, for example, in the 20th century, a huge number of unfair death sentences were passed.
...
The thing is that punishing one innocent person is worse than letting many guilty people go unpunished... The reason is that absolutely anyone could be in the place of the first one...
Dear Creator!
Your position, to put it mildly, is discouraging in its simplicity. Testing a new social system - which is what the "Black Mark" system is - should never be done with full force, if there is even the slightest chance of failure in its implementation... Unless, of course, you doubt your own infallibility.
I remember HW from the moment it appeared on the internet, and to some extent I considered it a worthy alternative to all the heroic communities that existed at that time - primarily because of its friendly atmosphere and reasonable tolerance. The transformation of the project you created cannot be called a consistent development - it is a primitive imitation of extremism, which can be observed on the Portal that is close to all of us. "Overdoing it" is a very mild characteristic of what is happening now with your knowledge and consent.
Regardless of the outcome of the process we are seeing now, it is not yet time to make a final decision, because in the future you may not have the moral right to refuse your decision... An imprudent act can be forgiven, but not changed...
Do you have even the slightest hint of a working mechanism for rehabilitating those "unfairly convicted"? Can you imagine even a fraction of the feelings of any player who will bear the burden of the "Black Mark" in their profile, given the non-zero probability of error (and especially, biased behavior) of the judges? Or do you think that the virtual state that you govern is simply a gift that you have given to all honest people?
The prosperity of this kingdom is primarily based on the authority of those people who honored you by registering on Heroes World and attracting the attention of other interested players... Or do you think that I, for example, was attracted by the design of your project? The atmosphere of being here plays a crucial role for all players. You are now trying to destroy it... What is more important in the end - a momentary impulse to establish "justice" on conditional principles, or the stability and security of being in your "heroic world"?
The main point is the principle of decision-making and the way you implement your idea. Don't be carried away by an abstract idea, but make a balanced and reasonable decision, because it may not be possible to cancel it without losing face.
"The children were playing Gestapo in the basement..." (c)
The thing is, punishing one innocent person is worse than letting many guilty people go unpunished... The reason is that absolutely any character could end up in the place of that first person...
Golden words, Yuri Benediktovich... thinking about Mother Russia (c) :D Well, no matter how you look at it - it's all to the point. I tried to convey the same thing to AK (Pit) - but they didn't want to listen, of course in that situation the consequences were less critical, but here the matter is acute (mistakes must not be allowed under any circumstances). AmberSoler
The rebirth of the project you created that is taking place cannot be called consistent development - it is a primitive imitation of extremism, which is observed on the Portal that is related to all of us
Consistent development couldn't fully take place, because the external introduction of extremism was much more intense than the resource could withstand. And imitation existed even in those friendly times - but coexisted with conservatism in parity. And as extremism gradually prevailed, the ice began to break... and as of today, extremism has simply grown into the main driving force on HeroesWorld. And not only because of the assimilation of layers from various resources, but also because the key positions at HeroesWorld are increasingly shifting toward extremism. And they are, as a rule, more active and aggressive than the Conservatives, and even more so than the "general mass." AmberSoler
Do you have even the slightest hint of a working rehabilitation mechanism? .......................................
What specific matches were they accused of cheating in?
Keba-vitalic Aldegir-vitalic Neoandy-vitalic
Members of the AC know what "presumption of innocence" means and are considering the issue of a rehabilitation mechanism.AmberSoler
Punishing one innocent person is worse than letting many guilty ones go unpunished...
But in this case, the impunity of one guilty person punishes many innocent people. Many good players simply don't register for Tournaments where cheaters play... Some refuse to play, preferring to endure humiliation instead... How many people have left for other forums because of this... How many scandals have we experienced...Pit for LM
The results of an open poll, conducted independently of the AC, were also taken into account, in which players were asked to choose one of three options: 1. Vitalik is cheating. 2. Vitalik is an honest player. 3. I don't know. The first option was chosen by 28 players, the second option was not chosen by anyone, and the third option was chosen by 10 players.
No one considers Vitalik to be an honest player. Moreover, these are not the final results. In my opinion, this - the opinion of people - is a much worse punishment than a ban from Tournaments, which, in essence, simply gives tournament organizers the opportunity to refuse a player's participation. Perhaps, it is possible to force the removal of the ban, but how can you force people to change their opinion?
Loi
16 years ago
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Hello!
I, Loy, support the actions of the Administration Committee in general and the actions regarding the user "Vitalik" in particular.
"But the impunity of one guilty party in this case punishes many innocent people. Many good players simply don't register for Tournaments where cheaters play... Some refuse to play, preferring to endure humiliation... How many people have left for other forums because of this... How many scandals have we experienced... " +1
Please understand me correctly - confrontation is not needed by anyone, it is harmful, but! this "abscess" with Vitalik had to be opened - for the further prosperity of both the resource and the Heroes community. While I greatly respect Amber Soler and understand his concerns, I still note that with the current composition of the Administration Committee, I am confident that we will not face such concerns. And in the future - that's why the Administration Committee is re-elected every six months...
P.S. Don't consider the Administration Committee as an authority, consider them as those who stand "on the edge of the rye field" - I know firsthand how tired they are of these squabbles and disputes, how much they want to play and improve in the Game themselves. Let's support them when it's needed! I think now is the time...
HwKeeper
16 years ago
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I've been reading the thread starting from post 63, and I'll only comment in the context of this information.
Creator
As I see it now, a more optimal solution would be to add the user to the "Blacklist" and award them a "Black Mark." Tournament organizers would then have the right to include in the rules of upcoming tournaments a clause stating that "Users with Black Marks cannot participate in the tournament." A major advantage of the "Black Mark" is that it is displayed in the user's profile, which already serves as a warning. Another option could be to permanently display the "Black Mark" and then replace it after a certain period with a "Gray Mark," which would allow the user to participate in tournaments that they couldn't participate in with a "Black Mark," while the presence of the "Gray Mark" would still caution users and organizers. The very presence of a "Black Mark" in a user's profile, as I think, would give the player an incentive to play fairly in order to get rid of it, even if it means replacing it with a "Gray Mark." It is even possible to consider an option for completely removing the "Marks" after an even longer period, if the player finally gets rid of the bad habit of violating tournament rules.
This quote is just my brief, five-minute reflection on this "Mark for a user who has violated tournament rules" and does not represent any approved mechanism. AmberSoler
Testing a new social system – which is what the "Black Mark" system is – should never be done with full force if there is even the slightest chance of failure in its implementation...
Currently, no testing of the social system is being conducted. The "Black Mark" being discussed is currently just an information source indicating that the user has been caught violating tournament rules, and this fact is verified.
If any mechanisms related to the "Black Mark" are proposed for implementation, they will be put to a vote in which any players and tournament organizers can participate, and a decision will only be made based on the results of that vote.
I don't quite understand the complaints of the previous speakers. If you believe that the proposed solution involving the use of the "Champion of Champions" system is not feasible, then please suggest your own solution that will satisfy everyone, and I think everyone (and especially the Arbitration Committee) will be grateful to you.
He who does nothing makes no mistakes.
I don't quite understand the complaints of the previous speakers. If you believe that the proposed option of using the Championship Matchmaking System is not viable, then please suggest your own, which will satisfy everyone, and I think everyone (and especially the administration) will be grateful to you. He who does nothing makes no mistakes.
And what's so unclear here, Dimych? There are no cheaters in principle, because it's impossible to prove it - therefore, Vitalik is more of an angel, or even an Archangel, in the Heroes world:D, and we are just small demons - "extremists" - trying to overwhelm him with numbers:o... That's the whole position, and it's not about a "black mark" at all - it's about the continuation of a kind of "great confrontation": for and against Vitalik. The discussion of methods to combat cheating is secondary for his supporters, IMHO.
numOne
16 years ago
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I fully support Pete and the decision of the Arbitration Committee. When the discussion on this issue started on the Heroes Portal, I wasn't fully aware of what was going on, which is why I left a justifying comment for Vitalik. Later, when some details became clearer to me, I started to doubt. In particular, the issue of Vitalik substituting Vigo in tournaments is the most obvious one; Vitalik didn't really deny it, and that alone is enough. Even if a "ban" isn't issued, it still gives you an idea of the person and their principles.
As for whether Vitalik is a maphacker or not, everyone can draw their own conclusions by studying the relevant thread on the portal, watching the demos and analyses made by the respected Neoandy, plus the opinions of many authoritative players who played directly with the person in question, plus the incredible statistics of tournament wins.
For those who believe that there is not enough evidence, they should think about the following: at the moment, it is almost impossible to 100% prove cheating, especially maphacking, and especially (!) for a player of Vitalik's level in Heroes of Might and Magic 3. If you take each individual moment, you can attribute everything to chance, but in total, a rather clear picture emerges.
Let everyone act according to their conscience – some remain silent, some doubt, but I am in favor of decisive measures! Letting things slide in this case is not an option.
SEM_56
16 years ago
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The very creation of the AC with players and respected individuals from our resource is already a breakthrough, several years ahead... To criticize and say that our heroic team is behaving inappropriately and making decisions about the World on its own is simply ridiculous... Of course, AmberSoler, you were among the founders of the World, and your indignation regarding the AC's decision is understandable only from your point of view... Our community of Heroes players and simply wonderful people is growing stronger every day, and we quickly eliminate all shortcomings and move forward towards progress, which, as everyone knows, is more than thriving, alongside other resources (which are simply living out their last days)!!! It's a pity to read such statements, with respect, SEM_56!!!
Kyle
16 years ago
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Pit for LM
Keba-vitalic Aldegir-vitalic Neoandy-vitalic
As far as I know, these games were played on HP. I read the "investigation" regarding this matter, and I can't think of anything other than the word "flame war" to describe that spectacle. Why is the player punished here based on that thread? Analogy: A person broke the law of one country (1), was caught there, and punished. After that, in another country (2), based on the trial of the first country (1), he was punished a second time in the second country (2). Ridiculous? I think it's ridiculous. If you want to punish a player, then conduct a proper "trial" here as well. Find the game and saves that were made in the tournament on HeroesWorld. And conduct a proper investigation, without that "flame war" that took place on HP. In other words, a separate thread needs to be organized where only interested parties can post (the suspected player, and members of the AC (preferably one, maximum two, otherwise "pressuring" the player might begin). Everyone else should be denied access. And punishment should only be possible based on an investigation on our portal. Otherwise, this all looks very bad. Pit for LM
The results of an open poll, conducted independently of the AC, were also taken into account, in which players were asked to choose one of three options: 1. Vitalik cheats. 2. Vitalik is an honest player. 3. I don't know.
It seems to me that the poll was not very well-designed. Because no one will ever choose the second option, even if Vitalik's nickname were replaced with any other nickname, since no one can give 100% certainty about a person. Therefore, it would be more proper to have a vote like: "Do you trust the Player?" or "Do you believe the player violated the rules in this (specific) game?" The second question makes sense to ask after a properly conducted investigation, if the AC members are having difficulty deciding.
In my opinion, it is precisely this - the opinion of people - that is a far worse punishment than the LMB, which, by and large, simply gives tournament organizers the opportunity to deny a player participation. Perhaps you can make someone remove the LMB, but how can you make people change their opinion?
I am not calling for the already imposed LMB to be removed, but I am calling for you to look around and see how exactly it was imposed and for what reason. In other words, I am calling for a proper investigation, and only after it is concluded should a poll be conducted.
Everything said above is my IMHO. I understand, of course, that my opinion is not very authoritative in your circle. But I could not stay on the sidelines, because the fate of HeroesWorld is not indifferent to me. And what is happening now very much resembles a settling of scores.
I think the poll is not very well designed. Because no one will ever choose the second option, even if Vitalik's nickname is replaced with any other nickname. Because no one will ever be 100% sure about a person.
I am sure that if a similar poll is conducted regarding some other players, the result will be exactly the opposite compared to Vitalik, and for almost any player, at least a few people will always vote for the second option.
As far as I know, these games were played on HP. I also read the "investigation" regarding this matter, and the only word I can come up with to describe that event is "flame war." Why is the player punished here based on that topic? Analogy: A guy broke the law in one country (1), was caught there, and was punished. After that, in another country (2), he is punished again based on the court decision of the first country (1). Stupidity? I think it's stupidity.
Kyle, you seem like a normal guy (as far as I know you), so why are you writing this nonsense here just to defend your "phoenix"-Vitalik — it's clear why you're doing it, your signature with the clan is visible to everyone ;). Your argument, to put it mildly, is idiotic, sorry of course, but it's true. Regarding the laws — "it would be funny if it weren't so sad" (с): what, if someone embezzled or killed in one country, they'll be given asylum in another or something?:D lol, damn! How are we supposed to understand such a position? So, on HP he cheated, apparently on principle, but on HeroesWorld, on a different principle, he never cheats under any circumstances — is that it?:)
Friendly advice — delete the post so you don't embarrass yourself. If I offended you anywhere, sorry again...
