Posts from "Fathers and Sons"

This is not a tournament; the games will not count towards rankings, and there will be no medals awarded.
The incentive is simply to win as a team.
However, the "sons" team will gain new knowledge, and I am confident that each member will learn something useful from this experience.

I don't think this tournament will teach beginners how to play, but at least it will answer some questions, and it will clearly show how to build chains and clear areas, which you won't see in replays, or if you do, most of it will be unclear

The "fathers" team, hopefully, will get new emotions and gratitude from their students.

1. Event Structure
Each member of the "sons" team plays one game against one member of the "fathers" team. The team that wins more games wins.

2. Regulations
SoD 3.2(4.0), 2SM4d(3), according to seasonal rules with the following additions:
1. The sons team plays in red.
2. The sons team is allowed to visit the cartographer.
3. Restarting after encounter 116 (inclusive) is canceled; any contact up to encounter 121 (inclusive) is prohibited.
4. Building Veil of Darkness in Necropolis is prohibited.

3. Game Procedure
1) Players draw lots beforehand; a representative from the fathers team draws first, and the result is communicated to the organizer.
2) The organizer creates 5 random maps and adds 2 cartographers near the Castle of the red player - one above ground and one underground.
3) The archive before the game is sent to the representative of the "fathers" and unpacked into the Maps folder; the maps appear in the list of fixed maps.
4) Players start with the first map. If the starting hero is not level 1, that same map is loaded again. In case of restarts at encounters 111 and 113, the next map in order is loaded.
5) On the first day, the red player visits both cartographers; then we follow the rules.

4. Team List

"Fathers"

1. LeBron (captain)
2. invisible
3. Деконтаминатор
4. Aldegir
5. Blacpoint

"Sons"

1. SpiriTT (captain)
2. Entomb
3. gen
4. Unikorn
5. AYMAN
6. ~no1_knows_me~

4. Pairs have been formed:

LeBron - SpiriTT just captained :)
invisible - Entomb 0:1
Деконтаминатор - gen 1:0
Aldegir - AYMAN 1:0
Blacpoint - Unikorn 1:0
Blacpoint - ~no1_knows_me~ 1:0

5. We start playing on June 9th.

Okay, here's the deal. I don't entirely like the idea, because it's not what we should be teaching new players. But, in general, we can do it this way. When there are no more restarts. Load a single-player game, open the map, and load it again for two players. This is the least harmful option, in my opinion. I don't know how to open a map in multiplayer, and even if I did, I wouldn't say it, because there's no need to teach everyone how to cheat.

It’s interesting who came up with this idea. And what’s the mechanism behind it? If the goal isn’t just to give newcomers an advantage, then this is a dead end. What’s the maximum that can be achieved? Reviewing saves after each turn? But why do that when it’s enough to simply analyze the saves after a game, with the same effect? Moreover, a game with an open map is played with a completely different strategy than a regular game. Loy clearly had a good idea when everyone played from the same save, and then analyzed it. This is a valuable thing, not just for beginners.

It was enough to look away for a moment, and Kash, without consulting anyone, once again proposes a rather dubious idea on behalf of the entire ABI:confused: ... To be honest, I'm not a fan of this kind of "learning" - how does an open map relate to online play?:confused: To learn, yes, having just saves is not enough (at least for such dummies as me) - but why not look for more decent methods? Like a 2v2 game (on templates that are adequate for such a game, because on some maps, who knows what is generated:)) or, as someone suggested:

Loy had a good idea when everyone played from the same save and then analyzed it.

That's not bad either. In short, why go down some twisted, semi-honest path when you can take a proven and legal one?;)
P.S. Vit, no offense:) .
P.P.S. By the way, so that the section doesn't disappear - it's perfectly suited by name for a 2v2 game ("families" = father + son):cool: !

to Oelm: 1. Similar ideas were recently discussed on the forum. I came up with this specific idea, and last night I discussed it with two, in my opinion, strong players, and we found the idea worthwhile; they agreed to participate. I also hope to attract someone else... in general, I won't reveal names yet. Yes, they were very upset that I called them "fathers," so let them come up with the name of their team themselves when there are more of them. I think 5-6 people to start with is already a team. 2. The goal is not just to "give beginners an advantage." I will prioritize the educational goal over the entertainment goal. This idea is primarily aimed at those who ask in private messages - why are chains needed, how to navigate the map, how to check resources, on what day can you take different buildings, and so on. They ask a lot of little things. I think watching a game played by professionals will be more useful for them than my unprofessional advice. 3. Yes, when the map is open, the strategy of the game for the "children" will be completely different, that's clear. The point is not in their strategy, but in the strategy of the "fathers." It will be difficult, but that's why they are the "fathers" :) to Dirty_Player: 1. Thank you for the criticism on the topic. I also thought about whether we are "teaching them the right things." But, on the other hand, it is customary to look at the map in offline mode; this does not mean that they will cheat in the game! It is not difficult to open a second game window and cheat; there is no need to teach this. 2. The option is accepted; maybe someone will add something. We need to come up with something about restarts. And after each turn, the "Someone is cheating!" message will be annoying; this is probably not that important. Criticism is welcome; opinions and suggestions are taken into account. Kostyan, please visit us more often on ICQ. By the way, I messaged you yesterday; you were still online when we came up with this. At least come online now; we need to talk. Added 7 minutes later

How does an open map relate to online play?:confused:

You're being ridiculous. It's the same as your favorite "infinite turn cheat."

By the way, there's another idea for a training tournament: "Fathers + Sons," since the game is played 2 vs. 2, but in each team, one player is experienced, and the other is a beginner. The experienced player could explain the moves via ICQ directly in online mode and give advice. IMHO, this would be much more useful than a revealed map.

P.S.: And regarding the revealed map, Oelm was right; it's a completely different game.

Well, Dirty agrees with me! IMHO, a vote is necessary.
I'm not changing my opinion, and a "cheat for infinite turns" (note - in single-player! only) cannot, by definition, affect online play, because, no matter how hard you try, it's too blatant a cheat, unlike secretly revealing the map, which is very difficult to prove! And I don't understand what offline play has to do with it either: confused: ... It has its own rules...

to Kosti: Guys, you have a good idea, keep developing it. I like it. :) If any of the "founding fathers" want to help newcomers in this way, I'm all for it. I want it to be interesting for the "founding fathers" as well, i.e., I want a competitive element. Any suggestions on the topic?

Interesting idea about the 2-2 game mode where one player is experienced and the other is a newbie... The newbie would then have the opportunity to see all the moves of their experienced partner + there could be a subsequent analysis of the actions in a chat program. We used to play like that in college, and the more experienced partner would always help with tips on how to act, depending on what has already been revealed on the map and what the overall situation is. If the entire map is revealed, then the thought process and the situation are completely different (you immediately set more long-term plans for yourself and work towards them without any reconnaissance... but in a 2-2 game, you have immediate tasks... that is, how to use what you already see + reconnaissance, of course... - as is the case in online games). In any case, both ideas are interesting, and if you think it's necessary, I can help with this issue... but all I can do is play the game myself, not organize or analyze it.

I support the idea of a 2 vs 2 game mode; I would personally like to learn from a more experienced partner (like Pit or Dubrovin, for example)...
This way, after a few games, you can really improve your skills, if only because (as mentioned above), you can observe your partner's moves.

When I first came to the site, I also suggested the idea of a 2 vs 2 game in the "Team Duel" thread, but nothing significant came of it. Could we actually organize this type of game, or even create a tournament?

It seems we are already discussing two tournament options. Fine, let's go with it. Regarding the first option (with an open map): I've been arguing, proving, and discussing it in the chat for half a day, my fingers are tired. I'm trying to disprove that we are raising map hackers. Thankfully, at least the "founding fathers" are supporting me. Here's what I found in the chat:

If someone is a beginner, it doesn't mean they are a child. They are all accomplished individuals and can distinguish between good and evil, what can be done and what is bad. Everyone is writing that we will "raise map hackers." Who will we raise? Many beginners already have children, and you treat them like immature teenagers. This type of tournament is more educational than competitive. To avoid further questions like, "What can be done on level 111 for a whole 6 minutes!"

I don't think this tournament will teach beginners how to play, but at least it will answer some questions, and it will clearly show how to build chains and clear the area, which you can't see in saved games, and even if you do, most of it will be unclear.

I would give a lot to play such a game with Stinger.

And here's what they came up with (there are already three of them):

In general, here's what we came up with: We'll write it down in advance and let you know (for example). You generate 5 saved games for us, place an unprotected cartographer next to the castle in the editor, and send them to us. That's it! No map hacking! Yes, and put a chest nearby so they don't waste money :D

In my opinion, the cartographer eliminates the issue of map hacking, doesn't it?

Once again, especially for Vitya and the three "fathers": what does having the map open from the start have to do with improving the level of the online game? :confused:
As I understand it, the main goal of this tournament is to improve the skills of beginners, not to satisfy the vanity of the "mega-fathers" (look how cool I am: I won a tournament against newbies with their map open:cool: :cool: :cool: ):D ! If I'm wrong about anything, refute it with arguments.
And it's a secondary issue how the map is opened: with cheats or a cartographer - yes, it's not about supposedly teaching them how to cheat (if they want to, they'll learn without such tournaments:rolleyes: ); it's just that the practical value of such a tournament for new, not very strong players is close to zero!

Let's consider what two tournament options, "Fathers and Sons," would give us in comparison. In the "open map" option, what are the advantages? Well, there seem to be two: you can observe the "father's" actions "live," and you can plan many moves ahead yourself. BUT: here, the "fathers" and "sons" are opponents, so an experienced player won't rush to share their experience during the game itself - which is the most valuable, and even more so, a sensible tournament player won't share plans; otherwise, it won't be a tournament at all, but a perverted kind of "let's play," if they do share:D ! And a beginner won't improve their skill in quality scouting, which is one of the most important components of the game with random maps!

Now, let's see what we can achieve by playing in mini-teams of 2 vs. 2:
playing in a team, the "father" will not only explain in more or less detail (even during battles) why he did what he did, but also share plans and - most importantly - suggest how the "child" should act; also, map exploration will be done in a "classic" way, and not through... well, you know...

Maybe I missed something in the analysis of the two tournament formats - if so, add it. But, in my opinion, it's simply obvious that, despite its complexity, the "2 vs. 2" format is qualitatively two levels higher:p !

Kostya, I won't argue with you, I don't want to. Thanks for the feedback, I understand you. I have nothing against a 2v2 tournament, or even a 3v3. I see the pros and cons, but I don't want to delve too deeply into it. I have enough of my own things to do, sorry. We've already thought through almost everything and will start regardless of anyone's opinion. We just need to wait for the "kids" to be willing to learn. The answers to your objections are, as it were, in my previous post. No one will share the plans in addition to the mapmaker, of course. It will be difficult for them anyway, and they are ready to lose. They will try to win. What else can I say? I hope this idea will come to fruition. P.S. The "mega-fathers" send their greetings :smile08:

I don't have any strong feelings about the current rules, although I personally think that the implementation isn't very successful. 2v2 games are better, but it's not as popular yet because of the long matches with four players. With the introduction of simultaneous turns, it might be possible to return to the 2v2 game format (if it works well with four players).

- Who taught you maphacking?!
- My dad, named Blacpoint.
- Hey Blac, this idiot says you taught him!!
Blacpoint: - Massaraksh!! I told you not to cheat online, but you didn't listen. If your child disobeys, erase him from the face of the earth.:smile19: (gunshot) (c) Inhabited Island.:D