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Posts from 2009 World Championship for Heroes IV Online.
Let's learn from past mistakes and develop a set of rules so that no one becomes indispensable. We'll hope that the second attempt will be good enough to present without embarrassment.
I've attached maps from AS.
DiD and Ruins are good maps. Both have qualities that make them enjoyable. After playing DiD many times, I can say that it's suitable for the Championship in its current form. Ruins should be improved. For some, they are new. For me, they are not anymore. I would add both to the list. I don't see the point in worrying about unfamiliar maps. There will be 2 months for testing, or more likely, even longer.
Guys, I don't understand what you're discussing – whether a map is suitable or not. Suggest all your maps. Then, choose 5 of them through voting or by judges' review. It's not that complicated.
By the way, we need to decide that each player can only participate in the map selection on one resource. Otherwise, we'll only be playing my maps or Oxygen's maps. Take my opinions on maps on HW with a grain of salt.
I see no point in worrying about unfamiliar maps. There will be 2 months or, most likely, more to playtest them.
That's exactly the point! And besides, do only seasoned players sign up for the World Championship? :) For newcomers, most maps will be new.. At WC 2008, one of the popular maps was Lescandra, which was probably well known only to the French, and that didn't stop it from being played ;) Well, and new maps are interesting.. At the very least, it adds some intrigue. :) I understand that playing on old, played-a-thousand-times maps is convenient.. Tactics and strategy are already developed and honed over the years. But aren't true Heroes afraid of challenges and novelty? :) In my opinion, a professional can show their skill on any map, even a new one for them :) I'm not insisting that new maps absolutely must be included in the WC.. Although take "Will and Mind". The map was new and was played in a tournament only on HeroesWorld.. And only a few people, none of whom were French :) Yet that didn't stop the French from featuring it! So I don't see any particular reason why we shouldn't do the same :) In any case, maps need to be chosen.. and honestly, the selection isn't that big..
I've attached maps from AS.
Ruslan, thank you very much :)
Best regards, Luchik!
"Как это странно всегда.. Вроде бы взрослые люди, А в голове ерунда.. Мечтаем как дети о чуде.."
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And Will and Reason, isn't that new? A tournament was held, and the French are playing. So, it's quite possible. I'm against maps that haven't been tested enough in online play.
Let's make it simpler: we'll create a commission of experienced players. They will ensure that unbalanced or rush-oriented maps don't make it to the tournament. Then, from the list that passes the selection, we'll choose through voting or an automatic draw. I prefer the draw because it doesn't require waiting.
Wanderer, of course, there's time for testing. But we've already seen it. There was already a championship. How many people tested the maps? About 10% of the players.
Understand, I'm trying to prevent trash like Lion's Muzzle or Battle of Underground from making it to the tournament (although, to be honest, I would also send straightforward Iron home :).
No one is suggesting such trash, after all. I also don't like straightforward rush maps! Dim, there aren't that many options, really. So, what would you suggest for the World Championship?
"Как это странно всегда.. Вроде бы взрослые люди, А в голове ерунда.. Мечтаем как дети о чуде.."
No one is suggesting such trash, though :) I'm also against straightforward rush maps!
Really? The guys from France want to play Eldorado. I respect Teacher a lot, but on this map, he was clearly taking it easy – it's either a pure rush or an incredibly slow game with a buggy Castle Building Option. And in general, it's a very delicate issue. For example, I think that Iron Man, ZmineZ, After the Flood, Spellcasters are trash. But many think otherwise.
Dim, there aren't that many options :( So, what would you suggest for the World Championship?
There really aren't many options. That's why the commission is needed – to choose the most playable one from everything that is suggested. I would suggest PS, Circle 2.0, Bizarro, Lezkandra, Plains of Despair 1.6, If these walls (debatable, but possible), Spleen, Will and Reason, Showdown (even though I don't like it).
By the way, regarding Leskandra. Just a side note.
The French modified it. Personally, I felt a bit uneasy playing the new version, especially with my friend marcel. I don't remember all the changes, but if I'm not mistaken, now before the major and before the dungeon (which has now disappeared, and instead, the hero just stands there), random and stronger guards are stationed. You never know who you'll encounter when you attack. I think there's even a guard of level 4 there... Also, you can immediately see through the mages' window which second town is in the dungeon.
So, what I'm getting at is... the French probably won't want to play the old version. And we'll all have to get used to the new one.
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I think we can come to an agreement. After all, it’s not like we’re teaching someone how to play Pacoland.
There aren't many options, really. That's why a committee is needed – to choose the most playable maps from all the suggestions. I would suggest PS, Circle 2.0, Bizarro, Lezkandra, Plains of Despair 1.6, If these walls (debatable, but possible), Spleen, Will and Reason, Showdown (even though I don't like it).
Well, the French already suggested half of these... The rest were at the World Championship in 2008... and you can only choose one map... Personally, I would choose Bizarro... So what's left? Nothing more... that's why it would have been good to include new maps... In principle, it will turn out that we will be playing the same things as in 2008 with a small addition. Although, in general, the main thing is to create a common list of good maps so that we don't have to complain like we did last year.
"Как это странно всегда.. Вроде бы взрослые люди, А в голове ерунда.. Мечтаем как дети о чуде.."
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Why only one map? Is the regulation already ready? ;) I already suggested a method for selecting maps. If we choose one map from a group of five, we will miss out on many good ones. It would be more beneficial to first create a large pool of maps, which will then be screened by a committee, and then a random draw will be conducted.
Why only one map? Is the regulation already ready? ;) I suggested a method for selecting maps. If we choose one map from a group of five, we will miss out on many good ones. It would be more beneficial to first create a large pool of maps, which will be screened by a committee, and then use an automatic draw.
That's much better :) Then it remains to select the maps :) In general, I agree with your list, Dim... Except for Showdown:D Sorry, I don't have a good feeling about it... :( but that's just my opinion.
"Как это странно всегда.. Вроде бы взрослые люди, А в голове ерунда.. Мечтаем как дети о чуде.."
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I don't have any personal preferences regarding the showdown, but it's very dynamic and well-balanced. Besides, many people enjoy it. Let's see what happens.
Latest news: The tournament will traditionally receive support from the Equilibris project and from the Hero's Corner, and we are very grateful to their leaders, Dalay and LaBoule.
P.S. Wanderer, it turns out that the Equi team wasn't aware of the final of the World Championship 2008. What a pleasant surprise! :D
Wanderer, of course, there's time for testing. But we've already seen it. There was already a championship. How many people tested the maps? About 10% of the players.
I don't remember what percentage tested them. Back then, there was also very little time before the start, everything was in a hurry. Now it's summer, most people are on vacation and holidays. I don't understand what you're getting at. Are you suggesting we only use familiar maps? But familiar to whom? Everyone will still want to push their own map. oxygen_hl
Understand, I'm trying to prevent trash like Lion's Muzzle or Battle of Underground from being included in the tournament (although, to be honest, I would also send straightforward Iron home :).
Well, for example, you're criticizing Iron for some reason. Why stifle other people's opinions? I don't understand you here.
Regarding the draw. And it's automatic. What kind of beast is that? If it works publicly, tell me how.
Repeating maps in the World Championship cheapens Heroes. It's too easy. I understand, Oxi, you still like to play in 5 and, most likely, you don't want to bother learning new maps. I understand you here. But it will be boring to play the same thing for another six months that we've been playing for years. To write and read reports that have already been written and read a hundred times. Playing new maps in every World Championship is a success. I want to play in the World Championship '09, not just go through the motions on autopilot.
I don't remember what percentage of players were testing it. Back then, there was little time before the start, and everything was done in a hurry. Now it's summer, and most people are on vacation. I don't understand what you're getting at. Should we only use familiar maps? But familiar to whom? Everyone will still want to push their own map.
Of course. I'm all for a reasonable balance between the old and popular and the new. The "Circle" map, for example, hasn't been played in tournaments for ages. CTPAHHuK
Well, for example, you're criticizing "Iron" for some reason. Why stifle someone else's opinion? I don't understand you here.
Am I stifling anything? I just expressed my opinion. "Iron" is a map with a single path, meaning there's no strategic depth (routes are figured out in two or three games), and for three weeks, you're stuck in a tedious grind of fighting neutrals, followed by one encounter, at most – a backtrack and a second encounter. As a result, you get a game against the computer plus a huge emphasis on guarding the bridge, which you won't even see or be able to restart on the first day. Get the Castle and that's it. CTPAHHuK
Regarding the draw. And an automatic one at that. What kind of beast is that? If it works publicly, tell me how.
We can program it. It won't take long, will it? ;) CTPAHHuK
Repeating maps in the World Championship cheapens Heroes. It's too easy. I understand, Oxi, that you still like to play in HoMM 5 and probably don't want to bother learning the maps from HoMM 4. I understand that. But it will be boring to play the same thing for another six months that you've been playing for years. To write and read reports that have already been written and read a hundred times. Playing new maps in every World Championship – that's success. I want to play in the HoMM'09 World Championship, not just autopilot through it.
I don't agree that repetition cheapens the game. They've been playing soccer with the same round ball on the same rectangular field for 160 years. And it hasn't gotten boring ;)
Some people even find playing the same map twice to be tedious and boring. It's an old debate between those who prefer randomness and those who prefer fixed maps. The former prefer to orient themselves on the terrain, while the latter prefer precise calculation and a detailed understanding. It's just a matter of preference. So, I'm for a reasonable balance of both. CTPAHHuK
P.S. Yes? And what's so pleasant about "Ekvi"? :)
About "Ekvi"? Fear the Buddha. :D They find your prize policy pleasant. ;)
Of course. I'm all for a reasonable balance between the old and popular and the new. The same "Circule" hasn't been played in tournaments for ages.
Yes, I agree. I hope it stays that way. oxygen_hl
Am I saying something wrong? I just expressed my opinion. "Iron" is a map with a single path, meaning there's no strategic depth (routes are figured out in two or three games). For three weeks, you're stuck in a tedious grind against neutral creatures, and then there's one encounter, at most – a reset and a second encounter. In the end, you get a game against the computer plus a huge emphasis on guarding a bridge that you won't even see or be able to reset on the first day. Get a Castle and you're done.
"Am I saying something wrong?" he said, squeezing his neck even tighter :))))) Either you're joking, or you think no one reads your posts. oxygen_hl
We can program it. How long will it take? ;)
This closed-door approach is killing it. Especially this idea of a map selection committee :))) Who needs that? A committee, a council, all these words. What's the point of it now? Let's not stray too far from reality. There are only five of us here. Hopefully, there will be at least 10, those who actively discuss the "Tournaments." oxygen_hl
I don't agree that repetition is boring. They've been playing soccer with the same round ball on the same rectangular field for 160 years, and it hasn't gotten boring ;)
Oxy, let's not use sophistry. Okay? Or am I just unaware that soccer has a field and ball editor, and a standard set of them with add-ons – it's just that no one wants to use them anymore? oxygen_hl
Some people even find playing the same map twice to be tedious and boring. It's an old debate between those who prefer randomness and those who prefer fixed maps. The former prefer to orient themselves on the map, while the latter prefer precise calculations and a detailed understanding. It's just a matter of preference. So, I'm for a reasonable balance of both.
Here you go again. A "randomizer" is a person of chance. You can't figure out a random map. There will be 2 months to achieve precise calculations and a detailed understanding on half of the maps. Even "Bizarre" can be understood and predicted. In the given time, a sufficient number of new maps will become well-known. So, my position is firm on this.
Going back to your 160-year-old soccer example. Here's my counter-example. Online "Tournaments" for Heroes 4 on AS. They create a tournament theme, select new maps for it, and play. Always new maps. Very interesting and cannot be compared to randomness. You should take this as an example, not chess or rugby, if you want a comparison. oxygen_hl
From Equi? Fear the Buddha. :D They're pleased with your prize policy. ;)
Yeah, he's getting cocky :))) It's strange that they're surprised. I promised them.
oxygen_hl
