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Gray fairies are better than any crows at the start, but Grindan + Masslow will take down any composition on the second week without any problems! So, let's argue with the Garrison about that. And besides, players using gray fairies will run further and collect more resources.
P.S.: I know that gray fairies are banned, but if they were allowed, it would be an absolute cheat!
Grindan and Masslow can take any standard map on the second week without any problems!
It will be very difficult to take the maximum difficulty level - because even with a fortress built up to level 1-7 on the first day + upgrading fairies = 4 Firebirds, 4 Psychics, 10 Fire Elementals, 8 Earth Elementals, about 20 Air Elementals, and nearly 80 upgraded fairies, you can't avoid significant losses - and if the Griffins have high morale and attack the fairies = they will be completely wiped out. Grindan's combat stats will be weak... approximately 2-1-7-6. In the spellbook, there's Slow, and even Bless and Mass Stone Skin. The Firebirds may lose one unit in the first attack, without killing half of the enemy stack... the fairies and psychics will attack without retaliation - but with difficulty, and most likely, together with the air elementals, they will finish off the upgraded stack - and then, the gradual encirclement of the elementalist's troops will not allow avoiding melee combat, in which neither the Firebird nor other troops are suitable for retaliating, and only the fairies and psychics will attack without retaliation, and this is despite the fact that the Griffins attack twice ;) , and still, there will be at least 6-7 rounds... how many times do Griffins usually lose morale in such a case? ... I think at least 3 times - and that's the result... P.S. Of course, if you have additional troops to supplement the native ones, it will be easier - but if you only use native troops, then either a couple of birds + some of the elementals, or a large part of the monsters of ranks 2-5 will be lost. (this is without the Griffins losing morale more than 1, which is not critical) In contrast to this, I will say that the Elf, considering the current rules (without upgrading fairies :) ), can take the maximum difficulty level on the 2nd week with native troops without a 7th-level creature, which is more realistic. And, in fact, Valeska has good chances - but the problem is having Mass Slow at the beginning of the 2nd week, and also the first turn (a single King-Griffin or cavalry that has been in the stables).
Maybe I was too optimistic about Max-Conserve; I need to check it, but it's definitely a tier 3 unit. I think that Grindan + upgraded fairies can cause a lot of trouble... You can even have a Mass Slow on the first day :D
With a good setup, any castle can be used to achieve maximum results. Is it impossible to achieve maximum results with 4 harpies, psychics, and air elementals? Storms with Blessing deal -160 damage already, plus psychics, harpies, and grand fairies; it might require some healing. The rest are unnecessary. If morale doesn't drop in the first round, everything will be fine.
P.S. I took it on the second try without using Grand Sorcerer, but I lost a harpy (due to morale) and 2 pixies.
Upgraded fairies are better than any ravens at the start, and Grindan + Mass Slow on the second week will take any stronghold without casualties! So, let's argue about the Garrison. And the weaker players on upgraded fairies will run away and gather more resources.
P.S. I know that upgrading fairies is forbidden, but if it were allowed, it would be a huge advantage!
All of this is great, if there is no need to break through ranged defenses (say, 60+ ranged attack, for example, from some Lizards) on the first week. All the fairies will be wiped out in 2-3 battles at most. This is a good chance to end up without a secondary resource or who knows what else valuable, where Garrison would win with a loss of at most 5-10 goblins. So, there are too many "ifs," I would say that the probability of an ideal scenario for conflict, with the absence of ranged units and a level 3-4 stronghold that can be easily taken with Mass Slow, is quite low, so you shouldn't rely on it too much. And having 4 birds on the second week, you can take much more than with upgraded fairies on the first, and the hero with them runs around like crazy, which is also important, but the benefit of weaker players running around quickly on the first week may not be there due to the limited available territory because of ranged defenses. So, the strength of the conflict lies in the ravens, and in some situations, the Psychics also help, but fairies, although a useful unit, are very often ineffective.
Added 7 minutes ago Alex_R
It will be very difficult to take the maximum - because even with a fortress upgrade from 1-7 + fairy upgrade on the first day = 4 Phoenixes, 4 Psychics, 10 Fire Elementals, 8 Earth Elementals, about 20 Air Elementals, and under 80 upgraded fairies, losses are inevitable - and in the case of Griffin morale and an attack on the fairies = a complete defeat. Grindan's combat parameters will be weak... approximately 2-1-7-6 In the spellbook, Mass Slow and Bless, and Mass Stone Skin. Phoenixes may lose one unit in the first attack, without killing half of the stack... fairies and psychics will attack without response - but with difficulty and most likely, together with the Air Elementals, they will finish off the stack of upgraded fairies - and then the gradual encirclement of the Elementalist's troops will not allow avoiding melee combat, in which neither the Phoenix nor other troops are suitable for retaliating, and only fairies and psychics will attack without response, and this is despite the fact that Griffins attack 2 times ;) , and still there will be at least 6-7 rounds... how many times do Griffins usually get morale in this case? ... I think at least 3 times - and here is the result... P.S. Of course, if there are additional troops to the native ones, it will be easier - but only with native troops, if you take them, then either a couple of birds + some of the Elementals, or a large part of the monsters of ranks 2-5 will be defeated. (this is without Griffin morale, max 1, which is not critical) In contrast, I will say that an Elf, taking into account the current rules (without fairy upgrade :)), takes the maximum with native troops on the second week without a rank 7 unit, which is more realistic. And, in fact, Valeska has good chances - but the problem is having Mass Slow at the beginning of the second week, and the first turn (a single King Griffin or cavalry that has been in the stables).
Strange, sorry, you seem like an experienced player, but you don't understand elementary things :smile27:. Parameters of 7-6 on magic, as you wrote, give exactly 84 rounds with Mass Slow for the Griffins, which allows you to easily take the stronghold with a large margin, even without ravens, it is quite enough to have 4 Psychics and 100+ fairies (if their upgrade were allowed), but it will take at least 15-20 minutes, probably. In principle, you can manage with even fewer troops, say, 4 Psychics, etc., but it will take even more time. So, I repeat, the problem is not in how to take the stronghold, but in whether it will be possible at all, and not in the large number of ranged defenses that can completely ruin the pace on the first week.
Can you really max out with 4 birds, psionicists, and air units? Storms with Bless deal 160 damage already, plus psionicists + birds + grand fairy; you might need some healing (and the enemy probably has a couple of traps). The rest aren't needed. If morale doesn't fail in the first round, everything is fine.
160 damage = 6 griffins; in response, you'll get a hit of approximately 250 damage = 10 storms. If we're talking about upgraded storms, then one full stack will be wiped out in 6 rounds, and the first cast won't be Bless! Psionicists will deal very little damage... at most 4 griffins if it's one stack, and 8 if it's 2 stacks. However, they'll retreat after one round, so in 6 rounds, they'll kill at best 30 griffins. Let's say a fairy deals about 6-8 griffins per hit, but she'll also move 4 or 5 times in 6 rounds, so it's almost a full stack. And then there are 4 firebirds, let's say they kill 9-12 griffins per hit and move a maximum of 5 rounds, but they'll always take damage in return... In the first round, we'll use Mass Slow on everyone; the storms attack the upgraded units (-4, -5) because there's no Bless; the psionicists and fairy remove another 10-12. This leaves a stack of 20+ griffins for the firebirds, and the response will be about 10 griffins dealing approximately 25-30 damage. In the second round, the firebird finishes off the royal griffins; the storms with Bless attack the regular upper griffins, and the fairy with the psionicist hits it after the slow. This leaves a stack of 20+ griffins, and 3 stacks of 40 have already moved 6 cells to the right. In the 3rd round, the firebirds finish off the regular griffins and take damage again, about 25-30. The fairies and psionicists immediately retreat far away or finish off the stack of griffins after the firebird. The 3 stacks of 40 have already moved 9 cells closer and can reach almost any stack of elementals. In the 4th round, the firebirds, psionicists, and fairies need to retreat; the storm either waits and then retreats or attacks... The 5th round and subsequent rounds involve running around, and to kill the remaining stacks in the same way, it will take at least 10 rounds, and the griffins' morale will never fail, and the firebird may lose one after two more hits.
I didn't calculate the damage; I just estimated it intuitively. The situation might be even worse, and considering morale, it could be terrible because the fairies die after one griffins' morale breaks, or the birds lose 2 after one hit, and the sooner this happens, the greater the losses, and in the first 5 rounds, this could lead to a loss.
Oelm
With Mass Slow, you can take any castle's maximum, if the setup is normal.
I'd like to see an approximate tactical plan for taking a maximum castle with castles like Tower, Inferno, Swamp, Barbarian... with an average setup. For example, 1-6 in the castle and upgrade one or a maximum of 2 units.
Added 14 minutes ago Wlk777
Mass Slow gives the griffins exactly 84 rounds, which allows you to easily take the maximum castle without ravens, with a large margin. 4 psionicists and 100+ fairies (if their upgrade was allowed) are quite enough; it will probably take at least 15-20 minutes, but in principle, you can manage with fewer troops, say 4 psionicists, etc., but it will take even more time.
84 rounds in the castle? :) 1) One griffins with broken morale = loss, and how many rounds are you counting on this not happening? 2) With only fairies and psionicists, you'll kill one stack in 3-4 rounds, and you'll need at least one round to retreat... with this setup, each unupgraded griffins will cover an area of 12 cells (from edge to edge), and the upgraded one (which you'll be dealing with) will force you to retreat in the second round, but there's nowhere to retreat... so 100+ fairies and 4 psionicists won't take the castle even with the Spirit of Despair artifact, and with even larger numbers. 84 rounds :smile40: ... let's hope we make it to Grindan's second cast ;)
I usually don't focus on air units in the early game because, in my opinion, with fairies, it's more advantageous to play with melee units rather than ranged ones. The real problem is when you can't get your units up on the first day; otherwise, it's a very good strategy to build from level 1 to 6 in the city – it's cheap and effective. You can buy units on day 121, and with decent combat skills, you can defeat almost anyone.
However, the real strength of the Faction lies in having 4-5 units on day 121, supported by 20-25 Storms. This is probably the most powerful rushing strategy. Add to that the deadly mages that usually come in abundance, and you get an overpowered combination that was rightfully nerfed in the expansion.
Off-topic: Tower, Swamp, and Barbarian factions can easily take the maximum-level castles with the "Mass Slow" spell. Swamp can also take them without "Mass Slow" if the Warlock is properly developed. Tower is a bit more difficult because it relies heavily on the Naga's retaliatory attacks, but by adding the War Machine and upgrading the Golems, I think they can also take it – although this is debatable. As for Barbarians, I don't know them very well and haven't tried taking maximum-level castles on the second day without "Mass Slow," but I think they could do it if they had to. All of this is just my opinion; I won't test or analyze it further because I'm not interested
"Это нам идеально подходит!" [Новосибирск, 2013] "Красавчик! Если только не читер.." [Киев, 2014] "Это Вам не шутки - нажрался Dust в маршрутке" [Новокузнецк, 2015] Сам ты фиш (с) :D
off-topic: Tower, Swamp, and Barb with mass slow take the max consulate from GS without any problems at all. Swamp can even take it without mass slow if Vistan is built up properly. It's harder for Tower since the main focus is on own-turn response nags, although by adding the cart and golem upgrade I think we also take it—though that's debatable. To be honest, I don't know Barb very well and haven't tried breaking maxes on the second week without mass slow, though I think Barb would break them if needed.
Tower with a cart and upgraded golems is another 2 extra days of building, considering 1-6 are in the citadel + upgraded gremlins on the first, and you'll also want upgraded gargoyles for the 1st turn, and even then only on snow—on grass, an upgraded stack of griffins will definitely move first and immediately bury all chances for Tower to take the consulate, even a level 3 one :D . Only single units of upgraded djinns can save it—but there are too many "ifs" + at least 3 additional days for building on the 2nd week, and even that doesn't guarantee taking the consulate. Alas, 5 nags on the 2nd or 9 nags on the 3rd is all Tower's strength in structures like consulates, duck trees, or Dragon Utopia; other troops are just weak meat. Vistan without mass slow also doesn't take the max consulate under standard conditions; even Tazar with mass slow will at most trade the entire 2nd-week army for 4 angels. Barb with 2-3 bears, 8-10 ruhs and other meat might take it with mass slow—but to say "without problems" is nonsense... firstly, only thunderbirds can provide the 1st turn to cast slow secondly, wolves and goblins can only hit basic griffins and only after removing two responses with bears and ruhs, and that's still tactically difficult—since when waiting, ruhs are faster than goblins and will go later, and thunderbirds are even faster; but if you attack immediately instead, then wolves follow the thunderbirds and take a critical hit right away. So losing 1-2 bears and almost everything else would be more about luck—but such an option is not acceptable.LeBron
All IMHO, I won't test or conduct anything since there's no interest in it
An IMHO based only on "chocolate" scenarios and without any interest in digging into the actual situation carries no useful information.
84 rounds in a confined space? :) 1) One griffon that has lost morale = defeat, and how many rounds are you expecting before that happens? 2) If you only have fairies and psychics, you'll be taking 3-4 rounds to eliminate a single stack, and you'll need at least one round to retreat... with this setup, each un-upgraded griffon will cover an area of 12 cells (from edge to edge), and an upgraded one (which you'll be dealing with) will force you to retreat by the second round - and there's nowhere to retreat to... so 100+ fairies and 4 psychics won't win even with the "Spirit of Despair" artifact, and with even better stats. 84 rounds :smile40: ... let's hope we make it to Grindan's second casting ;)
Honestly, I've kind of forgotten about morale, so yes, without speed, it might not be possible, but with speed, it's quite easy. We gather all the griffons, one by one, into one corner (or into the places we need), and with magic and psychics and fairies (assuming they are upgraded), we try to quickly eliminate the griffon stack (by the way, who said it will definitely be there?), then we speed up the psychics and, retreating to a safe distance, finish off the remaining griffons. It's long, I won't argue, but it's quite possible, and with the "Spirit of Despair," it's even easier; 4 psychics and single units like fairies are quite enough. The only thing you definitely need is a unit in your squad with a speed no less than that of the griffons, so that you have the first turn.
a very decent option is to build 1-6 in the city — as they say, cheap and cheerful; buying at 121, and with proper battle skill, we can break almost anything we want :)
what kind of skill are we talking about :) , if with such an army you can't take even a 3-4 Griffin Conservatory or a maximum Hive, nor a Naga Bank at 6 ... Even a near-maximum Hive, Naga Banks at 3-4 nagas will be a very big problem, after which it won't be possible to repeat the feat. You can, of course, break Dwarven Vaults and Crypts ... or a level 1 Griffin Conservatory — but that's far from what you should be aiming for in the 2nd week.
People who can't do something but still claim it's impossible have always annoyed me. Honestly, they only evoke laughter and pity.
"Это нам идеально подходит!" [Новосибирск, 2013] "Красавчик! Если только не читер.." [Киев, 2014] "Это Вам не шутки - нажрался Dust в маршрутке" [Новокузнецк, 2015] Сам ты фиш (с) :D
To be honest, I've kind of forgotten about morale. But if we're talking about it, without Haste, it might not work, but with Haste, it's quite easy. We gather all the fairies, one by one, in one corner (or in the places we need) and, using magic and psionic creatures along with the fairies (assuming they are upgraded), we try to quickly eliminate the griffon stack. By the way, who said there has to be an upgraded stack?
At the very beginning of the discussion, we were talking about a maximum-sized stack with upgraded units. Now, let's model the situation: Round 1: Cast Mass Slow and Ward with the main forces, while the single units distract. Round 2: Cast Haste on the fairies, and together with the psionic creatures, they move away from the upgraded stack... the single units, if they are still alive, distract again. Round 3: Cast Haste on the psionic creatures and attack after Ward on the upgraded griffons... in total, almost half are killed - 17 mana for 3 casts. Round 4: We can't attack; we retreat, otherwise, the remaining griffons will kill a lot of fairies. Only the presence of Lightning, combined with the fairies and psionic creatures, can help to finish off the griffon king, and that's assuming that the griffon stack on the upper left is not near the griffon king, which is likely. Even with this approach, if the griffons still can't corner the fairies and psionic creatures, it will take at least another 20+ rounds to defeat them in this way, and there won't be enough mana for Lightning or all the Haste spells.
I've always been annoyed by people who, without being able to do something themselves, claim that it's impossible. Honestly, they only evoke laughter and pity. :)
Well, the topic isn't about people, so regarding the topic: Alex is partially right. It's very difficult to maximize the conflict gain of 1-6 in the Citadel because the snakes will eliminate a large part of the army before the turn even comes. But any Naga Bank with those troops can be taken quite easily, and Cons can also be taken, as I already wrote (it might just take a while to get the maximum gain).
I've always been annoyed by people who, without being able to do something, claim that it's impossible. Honestly, they only evoke laughter and pity. :)
Have some self-respect – besides the "IMHO" argument, nothing else is apparent... and the inability to do something or justify it is precisely what hides behind the banality like "I won't test it." In principle, it's clear what this amazing skill is, with which everything is taken on the 2nd week, but it's embarrassing to talk about it. ;)
At the very beginning of the discussion, we talked about a combined strategy with upgraded units. Now, let's model the situation: Round 1: Cast Mass Slow and Haste on the main forces, while the single units distract. Round 2: Cast Haste on the Faeries, and together with the Psions, they move away from the upgraded stack... if the single units are still alive, they continue to distract. Round 3: Cast Haste on the Psions and attack after the Slow, targeting the upgraded Griffons... in total, almost half are killed - 17 mana for 3 casts. Round 4: We can't attack; we retreat, otherwise the remaining Griffons will kill the Faeries. Only the presence of Lightning, combined with the Faeries and Psions, can finish off the King Griffon, and this is assuming that the Griffon stack in the upper left corner is not near the King Griffon, which is likely. Even with this approach, if the Griffons still manage to overwhelm the Faeries and Psions, it will take at least another 20+ rounds to defeat them in this way, and there won't be enough mana for Lightning or all the Haste spells.
60 mana is more than enough, and Greenie and other complex mages often have much more by the 2nd week, 60 is the minimum :rolleyes:
Dirty_Player
