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If given a choice between armor skills and attack skills for a hero, I will choose:
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#46
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Lana, I'll write it out for the newbies.

30% offense is actually just an addition to the base offense.
But 15% armor reduces 15% of all damage. I think everyone should understand the difference here. I won't even get into ranged attacks.
In reply to StickyFingaz
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#47
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I was going to delete the topic. :mad: :mad: :mad:
In reply to bRitvo4kA
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#48
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bRitvo4kA
Enough off-topic discussions in the "Reports..." thread. It's better to write here.

Here's a simple example:
A hero with a group of creatures and an attack skill (+30%) attacks an opponent with a defense skill (-15%). The base damage is 100. As a result of the attack skill, the damage is 100 * 1.3 = 130. Now, this damage is reduced by 15% due to the defense skill. We get 130 * (1 - 0.15) = 110.5. A hero with a defense skill, when attacking a hero with a protection skill, will inflict only the base damage of 100.
Conclusion: in melee combat, the one with the attack skill deals 10.5% (110.5 - 100) more damage than their opponent with defense.
However, the attack skill only increases damage for melee units (archers have their own skill - archery), while defense affects both melee and ranged units. Therefore, if there are many archers in the army, which is usually the case, I think it's better to take the defense skill. But if I'm planning to have only melee units, then I'll probably choose attack.
There were probably archers in this experiment, because when comparing two equal melee armies, the one with the hero with the attack skill should win, logically.
That's correct. And when archers are allowed to shoot, it's usually the main character.
In reply to bRitvo4kA
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#49
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A topic like "which level 3 unit is cooler"..:)
I voted for armor solely because of my love for taking the Dragon Utopia early, breaking through ГО and so on. However, there is a hero—Shakti his name—the only one capable of breaking a consulate's second-tier with a starting army, and if you add bless and some fire breath, even a third-tier—well, for him, offense is much more important than armor because the damage dealt by trolls is what matters, not the damage taken by them; the same can be said for Gosha and generally any variant with one pronounced superstack
Armor is incredibly useful in Dragon Utopias. Let me explain: in a utopia, the most important thing, strangely enough, is fire breath. Its task is ridiculously simple—to hold out for 1-3 rounds simply by skipping turns—with armor and without it are two different ways of taking it; what can be taken almost without losses with exp armor might turn into a complete waste without armor, and it's not even about the fire breather's hits but about the dragons' priorities—I've noticed that with armor they usually hit the fire breather, while without armor they may well strike the shock ducks/angels

"Это нам идеально подходит!" [Новосибирск, 2013]
"Красавчик! Если только не читер.." [Киев, 2014]
"Это Вам не шутки - нажрался Dust в маршрутке" [Новокузнецк, 2015]
Сам ты фиш (с) :D
In reply to bRitvo4kA
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#51
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It's usually better to focus on one thing...
for example, maximize attack (especially when there's also mass haste).

And a lot depends on the artifacts – if you see attack artifacts lying around, boost your monster's attack; if there are magic artifacts everywhere, try boosting your mage. Therefore, polls about what's better – eggs or chicken – attack/defense or warrior/mage – are irrelevant. It all depends on the specific situation.
Дипломатия - искусство говорить собаке "хорошая собачка" до тех пор пока не найдешь подходящую палку.
In reply to LeBron
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#52
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Here, LeBron made a mistake. In a game against Britva, I managed to win on map 114 with Necropolis, losing a total of 10 skeletons. And even without Gosha, it's quite possible.
In reply to LeBron
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#53
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LeBron
There are 2 different approaches to taking something – with extra armor, you can do it with almost no losses, but without armor, it can turn into a complete failure, and it's not even about the damage from the devourer, but about the dragons' priorities. I noticed that with armor, they usually attack the devourer, but without armor, they can easily attack damage dealers/angels.
I was wrong. They attack weak units and specific cells:cool:
In reply to bRitvo4kA
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#54
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noticed that with armor, they usually attack the hit points, but without armor, they can quite easily attack the damage-dealing units/angels.
A valuable observation – we should re-check this statistically...

Regarding LeBron's mistake about the Consulate and the two-level building:
the only way to break a Consulate with a starting army.
As I understand it, the emphasis here should have been on the word starting...
And besides, that wasn't the main point of LeBron's statement, was it?
On the topic – summarizing LeBron's post, I'll express the following opinion:
It all depends on the specific situation; you also need to consider other parameters (the hero, the current development, the opponent's hero, what you plan to take...). There are many important parameters that make it impossible to judge accurately and immediately say that attack is definitely better. Simply put, there is not enough data for a definitive choice, and the poll is incorrect. But! The idea itself and the initiative to conduct such polls and discussions are sound, and I respect the author for starting this.

P.S. Perhaps we can dedicate further discussion to defining these very parameters and their relative importance?
For example, if, after assessing the map (maps), I see that I will have many battles with slow neutral creatures ahead, where I will usually attack first, and without retaliation, I will choose attack. If I see a lot of Hive, Consulates, and utopias, I will prefer armor. Something like that...
Стратегия - искусство возможного.

Первое правило форума :
"Хвалу и клевету приемли равнодушно
И не оспаривай глупца" (с)

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In reply to Wlk777
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#55
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Wlk777
You're mistaken. They attack weak units and specific cells:cool:
So what happened in the last map I played, where all the dragons immediately started attacking the angels, who were standing still and not bothering anyone?:rolleyes: Even though there were trolls, pikemen, and cruisers – basically, the entire priority target for dragons? And this observation wasn't made just once, but multiple times.

"Это нам идеально подходит!" [Новосибирск, 2013]
"Красавчик! Если только не читер.." [Киев, 2014]
"Это Вам не шутки - нажрался Dust в маршрутке" [Новокузнецк, 2015]
Сам ты фиш (с) :D
In reply to LeBron
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#56
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LeBron
so what happened in the last high-level map I played, where all the dragons attacked the angels, who were just standing there and not attacking anyone?:rolleyes: Even though there were trolls, pikemen, and cruisers – basically, the entire priority target list for dragons? And this observation wasn't made just once, but multiple times.
There weren't enough angels. Strong units are rarely targeted. I've also noticed that they usually attack specific tiles; you can experiment with this in your free time.
In reply to bRitvo4kA
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#57
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I'm certainly no expert on Dragon Utopias (I don't take the second one on SM :D), but in my opinion, dragons hit the strike stack (angels, wyverns) when they start playing for the win, meaning they believe they will win this fight. And this happens precisely when there isn't enough of that very strike stack yet (possibly during an early capture =) ).


Now to the main topic. Since the hacker deleted the posts.

Back when I didn't have internet and played only against the computer, I definitely chose only offense. And I only leveled up attack. I had no respect for defense at all—neither as a primary nor as a secondary skill. Besides, what is it even needed for? To kill neutrals faster, you need more attack, and if attack is pumped high enough, there might be no retaliation left at all :)

BUT! Internet appeared. And games on random maps began (and most importantly, with people). I had to fundamentally rethink my views. Precisely as mentioned above, the early capture of various objects started to have a huge influence—namely consulates, Dragon Utopias, etc. That's where I felt all the beauty of defense. And I discovered a new hero for myself—one who has long been known to everyone to the point of banality—Tazar.

So here it is. Now to the facts. If I understood the interpretation in PhysMag correctly, 30% offense isn't actually that own thing. And this misleads many players. These 30% are only one of four!!! components of total damage!

Whereas 15% defense reduces the ENTIRE total damage per unit!

I can't quote the formulas with a link to PhysMag (I don't have Office on my computer right now), but you can look them up yourselves by opening it http://homm3world.narod.ru/index.html.

Or even better, hit up Ambersoler (the creator of PhysMag) and let him sort it out.


But IMHO defense is cooler than attack. Because of the higher sustainability of both the "eater" and the strike stack in Dragon Utopias (and not just in them).
Сейчас балуюсь этим https://vcmi.eu/download/
За то что нейтралы не бегают за единичкой, для меня это уже стоит того
In reply to Lider1
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#58
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I understand that everyone here is a mega-expert in early rushes with the Necropolis:cool: and I still have a lot to learn from you, but I still have a small opinion:
The leader is right that dragons fly to attack if they think they can win (they are so naive:D), and they make this decision (that they can win) based on who actually visits them, and they evaluate not only the army and parameters, but also secondary skills: so, my modest experience suggests that they value the Armor skill quite highly and will therefore take it into account quite significantly when making a decision.
P.S. Dragons are really strange, I once experimented in single-player mode, and they all just ran away:confused:
It's turning into an off-topic discussion again:rolleyes:

"Это нам идеально подходит!" [Новосибирск, 2013]
"Красавчик! Если только не читер.." [Киев, 2014]
"Это Вам не шутки - нажрался Dust в маршрутке" [Новокузнецк, 2015]
Сам ты фиш (с) :D
In reply to Lider1
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#59
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Leader1


When I didn't have internet and only played against the computer, I always chose only attack and only upgraded attack. I didn't respect defense at all, neither as a primary nor as a secondary skill. And why would I need it? To kill neutrals faster, you need more attack, and if attack is heavily upgraded, there might not be any retaliation left :)

BUT! The internet appeared, and I started playing random maps (and, most importantly, with other people). I had to completely rethink my views. As already mentioned above, early acquisition of various objects started to have a significant impact. That is, control points, utopias, etc. It was then that I felt the full benefit of defense and discovered a new hero for myself – the well-known and almost cliché – Tazar.


Similarly, I played with people on fixed maps. Where the Barbarian could break through with minimal losses, the Swamp Thing was on the verge of defeat. And, in general, I didn't like Tazar's face :D. Now I've changed my mind, and if the game is important on a competitive server, I take Tazar; for friendly games, there are all the others, with a slight preference for Brogh.
In short, defense is king in random maps.
Даже если вас съели - у вас два выхода:smile19:

Зима 2011-12.
In reply to Javdet
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#60
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So, here's the thing. If I understand the physics engine correctly, 30% attack power isn't actually that. And this misleads many players. These 30% are just one of the four components of the total damage!

When 15% defense reduces the ENTIRE total damage to a unit!

This is what I meant in those posts that Hacker deleted. As far as I remember, 30% offense is an addition to the base damage, which, as a result, may add significantly less to the total damage. I haven't tested it myself yet, but it turns out that with high enemy defense, the addition could be more than 30%. I need to check it on Troglodytes.:)

And the monsters that attack in the treasure room really depend on the secondary skills, as well as the parameters. For example, I attacked in Conflux and in Utopias with the artifact helmet +6 and without it. Indeed, the monsters sometimes behave differently.
In reply to Oelm
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#61
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From personal observations:

1. It definitely depends on the parameters of the person entering the Dragon Utopia and their army: if the dragons aren't as afraid of the retaliation from strike stacks, they will slaughter them. The calculation is based on dealing maximum damage while receiving minimum retaliation and the ability to survive after it. If instead of waiting with angels you hit, say, green dragons and took a hit back—as a rule, expect a second strike from red ones, which will take out at least one angel. However, if there's a level 25 Tazar with 30-40 defense, the dragons will even hit single units and will never bite into a stack that is lethal to them. As this criterion weakens, the "bravery" of the dragons increases, including the "tastiness" of the leech at higher levels.

2. As for the placement of units in the Dragon Utopia—no matter how much I read about it—it didn't matter one bit. No matter which stack I placed the leech in (the one the dragons bite in the first round), they would hit it—as long as they could reach it :)