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Offline Oelm
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#95
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In general, I want to wrap up the topic of rushing for the Grail. A few words about my last game. I played as Red Necropolis against Swamp. The map generated with the main resource node at the top, with Galtran and two stacks of units at the start. The second hero was Isra. Two skeletons were hidden in a dwelling. The roads were slow. By the end of the week, Galtran was level 10, and I had captured the artifact that grants +2/+2 to ranged units (Red Dragon's Tongue). Isra learned all the level 1 spells in the Pandora box and passed them on to Aine. My army consisted of 207 skeletons, 2 angels, vampires, and liches. Plus, 12 skeletons from the lair and 20 pixies. Basically, with the same map generation but with faster roads, and if Galtran had been given earth instead of air on turn 117, it would have been quite possible to reach the Grail on day 23 with a large stack. For a rush, it would have been worth building a Guild of Mages 2, as the Blindness spell would be useful for reducing losses. From the Pandora box, I would have taken 30 grand witches (in the actual game, I sent Galtran to the stables to increase his movement). The skills would have been approximately 7-8-5-5. During the week, I lost about 30 skeletons on grand basilisk stacks; I should have attacked in a different order. Also, instead of Isra, any other necromancer would have raised more skeletons (Isra raises skeletons slowly until level 10). And if I hadn't gone to the stables, I would have had time to take more skeletons from the dwelling. In short, with faster roads and the right school of magic, it would have been possible to have 300+ grand skeletons on turn 117 and successfully rush the Grail on the first day. I had enough time and resources. In the test, I rushed it with losses of 17 skeletons, 10 witches, and liches. However, I took 15 zombies for myself, but in the game, there were only 5 left, but instead of them, I could have brought 5 air units to reinforce. The losses wouldn't have changed much. And I would have had enough mana left.
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Offline bRitvo4kA
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#96
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The point of the game isn't just about achieving a high score. In the first and second levels, the objective might not be worth the effort.
В дикім полі
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Offline Oelm
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#97
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Of course!! That's the point!

But in this particular case, it would have been justified. The point is not to kill the opponent's hero right away, but to clear their respawn.
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Offline Lider1
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#98
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+ surprise effect. I don't think everyone expects you to rush to them on the first turn :D
Сейчас балуюсь этим https://vcmi.eu/download/
За то что нейтралы не бегают за единичкой, для меня это уже стоит того
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Offline SEM_56
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#99
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Yes, originally a great Leader!!!
In my opinion, the main thing is the pace of your game. Often, on day 117, everything is going well; you've placed a level 1-6 building in your castle, but on day 121, you encounter a difficult situation, lacking the funds to increase production, buy a couple more heroes, and upgrade to level 7!!!
That's why a good game is considered one where, with each new day, you add: money, buildings, level up your main hero, acquire artifacts, etc.
And as a result, on day 131, with upgraded creatures at level 7, maximum production, and having acquired additional heroes, you defeat the Guardian and eliminate your opponent!!
In my opinion, that's an excellent pace and game time!!!
Ушел с героев, пока пряники)
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Offline LeBron
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#100
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SEM_56

And so in the end, on 131 with upgraded level 7 creatures, full growth, and a taken Dragon Utopia, you hit ГО and wipe out your opponent!!
As far as I'm concerned, that's an excellent tempo and game time!!!
you see, the thing is, before 131 high-level players are very unlikely to stall; they will either kill you sooner or amass such an army and stats in conserved hives and Dragon Utopias that no level 7 monsters will help you :smile32: therefore, when playing against mega-bisons, I try to apply pressure specifically and settle all issues on the second turn

"Это нам идеально подходит!" [Новосибирск, 2013]
"Красавчик! Если только не читер.." [Киев, 2014]
"Это Вам не шутки - нажрался Dust в маршрутке" [Новокузнецк, 2015]
Сам ты фиш (с) :D
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Offline Wlk777
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#101
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LeBron
you see, the thing is, before 131 high-level players most likely won't stall and will either kill you sooner or amass such an army and stats in cans, hives, and Dragon Utopias that no level 7 monsters will help you:smile32: so when playing against mega-bisons I try to pressure them specifically and settle all issues by the second week
Fortunately, the players here are normal and most games end after the 3rd week. I honestly doubt that even the most hardcore players constantly take Dragon Utopias on the 2nd week. And a bunch of cans and hives aren't always nearby either.
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Offline LeBron
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#102
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Wlk777
Fortunately, the players here are normal and most games end after the 3rd week. I truly doubt that even the most hardcore players constantly take Dragon Utopias on the 2nd week. And a bunch of cons and Hives aren't always nearby either.
The most hardcore players mostly play TE on mm6 :) there, a Dragon Utopia on the second week is absolute norm. No one would be surprised by a hundred ducks by 131.. But make no mistake, these folks do the same thing in SoD on smka—I've personally suffered :)
As for "the players here are normal"—as I understand it, this thread was created specifically to raise the level of play on world—and a high level doesn't imply building up 1-6 in the Castle—but the ability to take the most difficult objects with a minimal army and minimal losses, the ability to manage scouting and chains, etc. And "most games end after the 3rd week" is exactly an indicator that one should think about. I'm not saying that games must end at such early dates—unlike the main events of the game which, IMHO, belong between 121 and 131

"Это нам идеально подходит!" [Новосибирск, 2013]
"Красавчик! Если только не читер.." [Киев, 2014]
"Это Вам не шутки - нажрался Dust в маршрутке" [Новокузнецк, 2015]
Сам ты фиш (с) :D
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Offline Wlk777
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#103
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bRitvo4kA
The point of the game is not to break through ГО. On the first and second, the end may clearly not justify the means
Yeah, Oelm will probably soon be hitting ГО on 111 in theory :D In practice, however, he rarely manages it before the second month. Fact :)

Added after 1 minute
LeBron
the most hardcore players mostly play TE on mm6 :) there, Dragon Utopia on the second is an absolute norm. No one would be surprised by a hundred ducks by 131
Well, I'm not aware of those templates and versions. Here, as far as I know, it's mainly about SoD and 2SMD.
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Offline StickyFingaz
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#104
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the most hardcore players mainly play TE in Might & Magic VI

/topic/5623/

:D :D :D
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Offline Дубровин Павел
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#105
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LeBron
the most hardcore players mostly play TE on mm6 :) there, taking the Dragon Utopia on the second week is an absolute norm. No one would be surprised by a hundred ducks by 131.. But make no mistake, these folks do the same thing in SoD on smka—I've personally suffered from it :)
As for "the players here are normal"—as I understand it, this thread was created specifically to raise the level of play on World—and a high level doesn't imply building up 1-6 in the Castle, but rather the ability to take the most difficult objects with a minimal army and minimal losses, the ability to manage scouting and chains, etc. etc.—and "most games end after the 3rd week" is exactly the indicator one should think about. I'm not saying that games must end so early—unlike the main events of the game which, IMHO, belong between 121 and 131


I will comment a bit on some points from Sir LeBron's post.

The development of events in TE and SoD indeed differs qualitatively due to the acquisition of experience by "creatures" in the home Army, as well as indirectly for ГГ in TE, and the absence of such in SoD; it is because of this (creature experience) that taking Dragon Utopia on the 2nd week becomes possible in TE.

For those not very familiar with TE, I'll note that even the most "hardcore players" rarely take Dragon Utopias on the second week in SoD.
I have never had to take Dragon Utopias on the Second, and honestly, I'm not ashamed of it.
Simply put, TE and SoD are two very different things, and what the most "hardcore" player can do in TE, they cannot do in SoD.
I say this so that World Hero players unfamiliar with TE don't think there is a special caste of "hardcore" players who are invincible.
Using the inter-portal as an example, one can see that "our" SoD players "Mizrael" and "Uran" were able to withstand such MEGABISONs as Stinger and AlexTheGreat. Samurai could be said to have been lucky to part ways peacefully (1.5 to 1.5 points) with "Pit".
Moving away from the inter-portal, one can cite the victory in a fair fight of "our" Loi over another MEGABISON of Stinger and AlexTheGreat's level—Paladin. (I've drifted a bit off topic, but it won't hurt to remind you).
The fact is that in TE (for now:) ) there are more professionals playing than there are in SoD.
Much depends on the layout. Sometimes even in SoD, 18 Archs are gathered by the 3rd week.
С истиной где-то рядом...





Лето 2010.
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Offline invisible
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#106
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For those who are not very familiar with TE, I should note that even the most "hardcore players" rarely take Dragon Utopias on the second week in SoD.
Pash, I slightly disagree. Read the reports of Paladin, who plays TE much less than SoD, but nevertheless, he took Dragon Utopias on the second week then and still does. Of course, it doesn't happen that often, since you still have to find a Dragon Utopia :) , and there might not be enough free meat for this, but it's not that rare.
Regarding experience, I agree that taking Dragon Utopias has become many times easier with it. But the insane pace is facilitated by CONSISTENTLY GOOD starting troops in TE. That is, on the first week you can achieve things that in SoD are not always possible even on the second. Using Tiraxor level 1, I took a level 111 dwarf settlement to 100 without losing a single wolf and with additional growth from now - using only starting troops (30-35 wolves, some orcs and gobs). Samurai, if my memory serves me correctly, was leveling up Tirasik to level 14 on the first week. On the other hand, in SoD, an insane pace can be achieved as Gosha or Shakti. But due to the wide variance of starting troops in SoD, it can also turn into a complete disaster.
Я ламер и играть не умею, нах!:smile33:
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Offline Дубровин Павел
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#107
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invisible
Pash, I slightly disagree. Read the reports of Paladin, who plays TE much less than SoD, but nevertheless, he took Dragon Utopias on the second week then and still does. Of course, it doesn't happen that often, since you have to find a Dragon Utopia first:) , and there might not be enough free meat for this, but it's not that rare.
Regarding experience, I agree that taking Dragon Utopias has become many times easier with it. But the starting troops in TE contribute to the insane pace. That is, on the first week you can do things that in SoD aren't always possible even on the second. I took a level 1 Tiraxor into a level 111 dwarf settlement at 100 without losing a single wolf. If my memory serves me correctly, Samurai was leveling up little Tiras to level 14 during the first week.

Yes, Serezha, I agree:)
С истиной где-то рядом...





Лето 2010.
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Offline LeBron
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#108
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Pash, you're distorting the meaning of my posts :) I'm not trying to prove that World players are weaker than MegaBisons from Bay; I'm trying to explain the importance of tempo and using as an example (specifically an example!) Dragon Utopias on week 2 performed by players from Bay (from personal experience!) etc. own parties, I can say with 100% certainty that active steps to collect large cons, Hives, etc., must start on the second or even first week, and this should be planned as early as the first moves of the game. That is exactly when (don't even doubt it!) Dragon Utopias and ГО will start falling on the second week, and IMHO that is what skill growth looks like.
PS: go read Pete's reports on the portal and here regarding his actions on the second week ;)

"Это нам идеально подходит!" [Новосибирск, 2013]
"Красавчик! Если только не читер.." [Киев, 2014]
"Это Вам не шутки - нажрался Dust в маршрутке" [Новокузнецк, 2015]
Сам ты фиш (с) :D
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Offline Wicc
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#109
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I recall that in the now-legendary match Moscow-Michurinsk under chaos rules (SoD 200% difficulty), vam rad summed up the difference in team approaches quite well. Not verbatim:

"Imagine a fight between a boxer and a street brawler. The boxer puts in his mouthguard, assumes his stance, and starts boxing. For which he immediately gets sand in his eyes, a knee between the legs, and a bottle to the head. That is, just as he was starting the fight, his opponent was already finishing it.

It's the same with the Muscovites — while we were building up our castle, gathering resources for construction and upgrading the 7th dwelling, they were quickly upgrading and buying lower-tier troops and using them to break open conservatories, hives, and then Dragon Utopias. As a result, by the 3rd week, when in our opinion the game was just entering its acute phase, for them, with control and parameters, it was already ending."

Essentially, the ideology of competitive Heroes is exactly that — to do everything needed as quickly as possible and earlier than your opponent. If you can break open a conservatory-hive in the 1st week, you do that. If you can take a Dragon Utopia on the 2nd week without critical losses, you do that. And so on. There is no standard tempo here; it's a fierce rat race.

Prioritization when moving across the map is very important. What to fight, what not to fight, and what to fight but not right now, etc. And while people have generally learned how to fight, when it comes to priorities, there's a complete disaster in some places.

Here, you need to calculate development several days ahead, imagine where a given hero will run, how they will set up and rearrange chains. Often you have to give up on many important things, say, awkwardly placed conservatories, hives, or Dragon Utopias. Because if there's somewhere to run and something to do, losing a day of tempo often doesn't pay off with an extra chicken coop taken.

And sometimes it's the opposite — you need to stand still like a dad and smoke for 2 days at one spot. Rarely, but it happens. You shouldn't be afraid of that either, as long as it's truly justified.

This can't be explained with words; it has to be shown in practice. Sometimes I offer people various puzzles on optimal pathing, and a minority manages them.
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