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#20
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I don't think it's possible to achieve complete objectivity, as it's simply unrealistic. An average player can play against weaker opponents and artificially inflate their ranking, thereby increasing their rating. How can we accurately determine, using numbers, who is a strong player, who is average, and who is weak, while still claiming 100% objectivity and accuracy in the results?
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#21
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Leader1
I don't think it will be possible to achieve complete objectivity, as it's unrealistic. An average player can play against weaker opponents and artificially inflate their ranking, thereby increasing their coefficient. But how can we accurately determine, in numbers, who is a strong player, who is an average player, and who is a weak player, while maintaining 100% objectivity and accuracy in the results?
Exactly! And this is where the introduced coefficients will help, to reduce the potential imbalance, which will be even greater the more often "an average player plays against weaker opponents and artificially inflates their ranking." Do you understand?

When an average player plays 100 games with the Swamp faction, inflating its statistics by 100 points, that's an imbalance.
Statistics based on coefficients, let's say, will show 80 (or maybe even 100, or 120), which will be a more realistic figure.

P.S. And also, players don't play to provide statistics for the Castles, but to climb the rankings :)
P.P.S. I guess I didn't explain it very well.


Here, I think I've figured out how to convey my idea!
Give me the statistics for truly strong Castles, that is, those in which
weaker players have defeated stronger players.
Give me the statistics for truly weak Castles, that is, those in which stronger players have lost to weaker players.

Do you understand? Because the strength of a Castle is not a player-dependent phenomenon. That's why it was suggested to introduce a correction coefficient. Because when a strong player wins against a weaker player with a particular Castle, it doesn't necessarily mean (but it doesn't exclude!) that this Castle is stronger.
Клан Homo homini

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth...
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#22
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Yes, but how do you accurately calculate the coefficients then? How do you assign a specific coefficient to this player, based on their ranking, and a different coefficient to that player, based on their ranking?
In my opinion, due to the subjectivity of the ranking system itself, the coefficients will also be subjective. Or, these coefficients need to be artificially set manually, but how? Based on what, if not the ranking? Simply based on someone's personal preference for one player over another? That's already subjective.

And 0.80, 0.82, etc., in my opinion, don't guarantee much accuracy. Although, if we assume that the ranking is 100% accurate, then it will be something like an arithmetic mean.

Quote:
P.P.S. Apparently, I didn't explain it well. (I didn't immediately realize that multiplying by 0,... would decrease the number).

But again, there are several debatable points:

How do you determine a weak/strong player? (Based on the ranking?)

And, specifically: how do you determine which Castle is the strongest? You need to consider the template as well.

For example, I think Inferno is weak, but Dirty Player probably doesn't think so, and he's right in his own way; you just need to know how to play it!

And if we start shouting at each other, "this Castle sucks, and this one is the best," I'm afraid the discussion might turn into something like: which is better, a Royal Griffin or a Battle Griffin :D.
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#23
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But how can we accurately calculate the coefficients then?
The coefficients directly depend on the players' strength. This is a fact. The question is how this dependence is calculated (linear or non-linear) and what it is based on.
It's just my opinion, but because the rating itself is subjective, the coefficients will also be subjective. Or these coefficients need to be artificially set manually, but how? Based on what, if not the rating? Just based on someone's personal preference for one player over another? That would already be subjective.
And 0.80, 0.82, etc., in my opinion, don't guarantee greater accuracy. Although, if we assume that the rating is 100% correct, then it will be something like an average.
Exactly! And no rating can give a 100% guarantee of accuracy. Only variations of +/-. At the moment, we have nothing but the rating table, so that's what we're talking about. Well, the coefficients can be not 0.80, 0.82, but, for example, from 0.5 to 1.5 or something else. They should be derived empirically, based on the analysis of the data obtained with different coefficients.

To understand the meaning of all this, here's another example, exaggerated, for better understanding.

Let's say a Strong Player played against a Weak Player 100 games as Swamp against Rampart, and won all 100 times. Does this mean that Swamp is stronger than Rampart? Not at all. That's why coefficients are needed.

And now, something to think about. Let's say Player 1 played against Player 2 - 100 games as Swamp against Rampart, and won all 100 times. Does this mean that Swamp is stronger than Rampart? Or that Player 1 is stronger than Player 2? It's impossible to say for sure, because... :)
Клан Homo homini

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth...
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#24
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Here's an interesting question: how do you account for the fact that I really enjoy playing as the Castle faction? (Although I still haven't quite mastered it...). Or rather, I play as Castle when I'm trying to learn new tactics, so the gameplay itself doesn't distract me. In the first season, I played a lot, almost exclusively as Castle, and I lost almost every game. I realized that the results were very different when I played and when I didn't. How do you factor in these kinds of things when calculating the coefficients? I'm saying that maybe it's better to leave everything as Kostyan did (respect!). Everyone will simply keep in mind that this statistic has some relativity, but at least it's based on pure facts, from which everyone can draw their own conclusions. And the coefficients are already an interpretation, a model – and, as I tried to explain above, not necessarily an accurate one. Moreover, the values of the coefficients are where all the subjectivity is hidden. P.S. This is just my opinion, and it's not meant to criticize, but rather to warn against possible mistakes if someone tries to create an accurate statistical representation.
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#25
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Well, you talked me into it – I’m already confused myself :D

One thing is clear – it will all be relative, and it won’t be that easy to do…
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In reply to vbn
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#26
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In that case, I suggest holding final battles at the end of each season. Something like this: the top eight to ten players compete against each other without restrictions, using the castles assigned to them (or randomly selected). This way, the final rankings would be determined by matches against stronger players, not against weaker ones like me. We just need to work out the details more clearly.
Ибу ибуди - хуйдао муди - Шаг за шагом можно достигнуть цели (китайская мудрость)

Кто к нам с пером придёт, тот от пера и погибнет!:smile51:
In reply to КостяN
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#27
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I completely agree with the Leader. Statistics are just statistics, and they don't offer much more than that, and they certainly can't tell you about the strength of the castles.
And I can already say which castle is stronger without any calculations. Besides, the color matters – there's a big difference between red and blue Necropolis. And time control is also important.

Here, it's just information about the game world, which castles are most often preferred, and so on.
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#28
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Statistics are a very interesting and useful thing. They can shed light on the imbalance of towns or heroes, because statistics are essentially the history and practical result of games. I largely agree with the respected Vbn. That is, the provided statistics can only be used to judge, for example, which towns players use or which heroes they pick most often. And to judge the strength of towns, one must only consider games between players of approximately equal rating. I would very much like to see something similar to HP on HeroesWorld, where for each player all the data would be compiled into a table showing who they played with, which hero, which town, and when they finished. This would not only be interesting for everyone to read, but also useful for studying a player's play style. The basis for the statistics should be data from the standard report submission form. It would be possible to create a small program that automatically calculates many statistical indicators, such as the average game duration for each player, percentages of town and hero usage, etc. If such a database were created, it would be possible to conduct analysis
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#29
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I'm adding a table to the first post of the thread showing the matchups between castles. The total number of games doesn't match because I didn't include several "castle vs. castle," "swamp vs. swamp," etc., matches in this table.
P.S. Sorry that it turned out so rough:o
P.P.S. I'll post a histogram showing the game completion times later;)
Ибу ибуди - хуйдао муди - Шаг за шагом можно достигнуть цели (китайская мудрость)

Кто к нам с пером придёт, тот от пера и погибнет!:smile51:
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#30
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I calculated the statistics for towns based on the Summer-2010 season.

Since the games were played by players of various levels, it is of course relative and does not claim to be precise. But still, imho, an interesting thing for a Heroes player's eye ))).

So, the final table

1 Castle - 146 games = 81 wins - 64.5 losses = + 16.5

2 Fortress -99 games = 52.5 wins - 45.5 losses = + 7

3 Rampart - 108 games = 57 wins - 49.5 losses = + 6.5

4 Conflux - 34 games = 19.5 wins - 14 losses = + 5.5

5 Necropolis - 34 games = 17.5 wins - 16 losses = + 1.5

6 Inferno - 21 games = 11 wins - 10 losses = + 1

7 Tower - 60 games = 27 wins - 33 losses = - 6

8 Stronghold - 58 games = 23.5 wins - 34 losses = - 10.5

9 Dungeon )) - 113 games = 46 wins - 76.5 losses = - 20.5

This is, in my opinion, the interesting table we got.

Summing up, we can say, although many already knew this, that the most popular town is Castle, and reliable at the same time, as the results of this season show.

For some, the position of Dungeon in this table might seem shocking ))), honestly, I was a bit surprised myself, but I always knew that Dungeon is not a stable town. However, to clarify the situation, I will still say that the outcome of such a low position for this town was probably influenced by the games of beginners who do not know how to play it.

I remember during a conversation with Alex, he told me that you need to know how to play Dungeon, meaning you need to know especially how to not waste Troglodytes at all, if possible. + I'll add the words of Artem Stinger that Dungeon is an exclusive town, where the tempo usually explodes from the start and, with correct play, continues until the very end.

As for the other towns, we can highlight the fact that Inferno, Conflux, and Necropolis are still rarely played towns. But in the case of Inferno, simply few players know how to play it competently, while the other two towns are simply avoided when rolling.
Tower and Stronghold are slightly more popular than Inferno and, one could say, are gaining momentum. Well, Fortress and Rampart rightfully fought for the top spots, imho they are equals.

In conclusion, I would like to address the newcomers, and not for the first time )). When rolling, do not give your opponent a town that is clearly stronger than yours. For example, rolling Red Conflux vs Blue Stronghold, etc.

P.S. if the table data sparks interest among Heroes players, I will try to keep doing this if time allows. Currently on my radar is the recently finished Autumn-2010 season.

Good luck to everyone on the battlefields !!!!!!!!


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#31
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AYMAN
I calculated the castle statistics for the Summer-2010 season.

Since the games were played by players of various levels, it is of course relative and does not claim to be precise. But still, in my opinion, it's an interesting thing for a Heroes player's eye ))).

So, here is the final table:

1 Castle - 146 games = 81 wins - 64.5 losses = +16.5

2 Swamp - 99 games = 52.5 wins - 45.5 losses = +7

3 Rampart - 108 games = 57 wins - 49.5 losses = +6.5

4 Conflux - 34 games = 19.5 wins - 14 losses = +5.5

5 Necros - 34 games = 17.5 wins - 16 losses = +1.5

6 Inferno - 21 games = 11 wins - 10 losses = +1

7 Tower - 60 games = 27 wins - 33 losses = -6

8 Stronghold - 58 games = 23.5 wins - 34 losses = -10.5

9 Dungeon )) - 113 games = 46 wins - 76.5 losses = -20.5

That's what I think is a pretty interesting table.

Summing up, we can say — although many already knew this — that the most popular castle is Castle, and also the most reliable, as the results of this season show.

For some, Dungeon's place in this table might come as a shock ))), honestly, I was a bit surprised myself, but I always knew Dungeon is not a stable castle. However, to clarify the situation, I'll still say that this castle's low standing was probably influenced by newbies playing it, who don't know how to use it.

I remember in a conversation with Alex, he told me that Dungeon requires skill to play, meaning exceptional skill — to avoid losing Troglodytes whenever possible at all. + I'll add Artem Stinger's words that Dungeon is an exclusive castle, where the tempo usually explodes from the start and, with proper play, continues until the end.

As for the other castles, one can note the fact that Inferno, Conflux, and Necros are still rarely played castles. But in Inferno's case, there are simply few players who know how to play it competently, while the other two castles are simply avoided being given in the random draw.
Tower and Barbs are a bit more popular than Inferno and can be said to be gaining momentum. Well, Swamp and Rampart rightfully fought for the top spots, in my opinion they are each other's equals.

In conclusion, I'd like to address the newbies — and not for the first time )). In the random draw, do not give your opponent a castle clearly stronger than yours. Like, for example, random red Conflux vs blue Barbarians smh.

P.S. if the data in the table sparks interest among Heroes players, given time I'll try to keep this up. For now, the recently concluded Fall-2010 season is on my radar.

Good luck to everyone on the battlefields!!!!!!!!

Thanks to Ayman for the statistics!!!:smile20:
Well yeah, when I saw the results for Dungeon games... well, uh.... WTF in a word...:smile07:
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#32
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It is better to assess the strength of a castle based on a relative metric – the percentage of wins.
And the larger the sample size, the more objective the indicator.
The table will look slightly different for the season:
1 Conflux 19.5/34 = 57.3%
2 Castle 81/146 = 55.5%
3 Swamp 52.5/99 = 53.0%
4 Rampart 57/108 = 52.7%
5 Inferno 11/21 = 52.4%
6 Necropolis 17.5/34 = 51.5%
7 Tower 27/60 = 45.0%
8 Dungeon 46/113 = 40.7%
9 Stronghold 23.5/58 = 40.5%
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#34
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Thanks to Aymanu of course, but drawing conclusions from statistics processed this way is foolish.
Dungeon is a strong faction, and it is mainly used against other strong factions: Conflux, Necro, Ramp. And this is exactly where its unevenness and the need to know how to play it come out. The same can be said about Necro.

Castle - yes, a stable faction, but it can be called strong only on 3 templates: Balance, Panic, Jebus Cross - again, the templates played are not reflected at all. As it is, its main positive balance comes in the matchups: Castle-Tower, Castle-Barb (speaking of SoD).
Etc.
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#35
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Agreed, Andrey Britvo4ka, the percentage indicator is more accurate, thanks for the correction!!!.

Dima Preds, I know that Dungeon is a strong town )) but judging by the statistics of this season, it's clear that far from everyone knows how to play it, plus it is unstable, I mean the SMKa in particular., no nooks, some money tightness, and that's it. This is, of course, in brief. And by the way, there's no need to give a stronger town, personally, I sure won't give Conflux or red Necros, but I'll take Dungeon for myself ))) something like that.


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