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Alex_R
even Shakti has a worse chance of hitting the max on the second take!
all IMHO
I strongly disagree here :) the standard option is 110 from the start + 50-70 bonus on the second + some meat (you can even do without mins and cats), off-//exp parameters at 5-5, bless and cons, and the max falls quite easily. Once I managed to take the third with a shakter on Thursday of the first week :) troglodytes in the basement + bless = deadly power ;) all in the soden, naturally. In that case, even without experience, Dragon Utopia's fall in the middle of the second [week] happens without losses :smile32:

"Это нам идеально подходит!" [Новосибирск, 2013]
"Красавчик! Если только не читер.." [Киев, 2014]
"Это Вам не шутки - нажрался Dust в маршрутке" [Новокузнецк, 2015]
Сам ты фиш (с) :D
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Grade is certainly good, but is it justified if there are too few Lizards...?
I agree with LEBRON about the tactic of finishing off enemies in melee combat. By correctly calculating the shots and damage, you can easily do without the grade!

For example, a Dwarf hero at level 100 can take on a level 114 map with 46 Goblins, 18 Lizards, and 2 Wyverns, and it's a breeze, with losses of 10 Goblins and occasionally 1-2 Lizards!!!
Ушел с героев, пока пряники)
In reply to LeBron
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LeBron
I strongly disagree with this :) The standard option is 110 at the start + 50-70 as an increase.
Oh, and that's your standard option!
Yes, sometimes in SOD, you can get 160 at the start + 70 on the second day, but that's rare, and more often it's 100-110 + 30 on the second day (and that's if you fight without losses).
For Ivora, you can also get a consul max on the 3rd or 4th day (if you're lucky with the layout).
The point is that with the Elven brood of the 2nd week + a minimum of hideouts (1-2), you can almost always get any resource with acceptable losses on the second week, and you don't necessarily have to stick to a specific hero - you can play as Ufretin, for example. But Dungeon will fail without Shakti or without 3 stacks of troglodytes.
P.S. For the Swamp, losing a turn on the 1st week due to an upgrade is critical in 90% of cases.
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Sometimes it's critical, sometimes it's not. If you have limited funds, aggressive guards, and can't rely on building Hydras (hopefully you can manage to build the rest), then you can safely skip a turn or two. That's why on XL templates, I often see players upgrading Lizards (they need to spread out, break through in all directions, eliminate enemy units, etc.), while on CM templates, the priority is a slower and more methodical game. Currently, on TE, perhaps the strongest strategy for building up around a Swamp is to upgrade Lizards on the first turn and then, before the end of the week, build Hydras with a Castle without Bulls.
In reply to Alex_R
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I'll argue with that :)
Alex_R
more often 100-110 +30 on the second
Out of all factions, my experience playing as Dungeon is the greatest (definitely around 70 games)—only in rare cases does Shakti have <100 troglodytes; that's if Lorelei or only 1 stack arrives. In most cases, 2 stacks of trogs arrive, averaging 35+35 from 2 heroes and 14 from the castle. Total: 120 plus or minus 10. On the second week, with a built-up Stronghold, +21 and another 30-40 from the hero, totaling at least +50! Not counting caches and possible 3 native heroes.
Alex_R
but Dungeon without Shakti or without 3 stacks of troglodytes is out of luck.
Without Shakti, playing as Dungeon isn't even worth it in principle, and the 3 stacks thing is a fantasy :)
Alex_R
P.S. For Swamp, losing a turn on the 1st week due to upgrading is critical in 90% of cases.
With built-up archers, I always upgrade them on day 1 or 2 both in TE and SoD—depending on the flies at the start. I've never experienced any "critical" problems ;) Of course, this is all IMHO based on personal experience

"Это нам идеально подходит!" [Новосибирск, 2013]
"Красавчик! Если только не читер.." [Киев, 2014]
"Это Вам не шутки - нажрался Dust в маршрутке" [Новокузнецк, 2015]
Сам ты фиш (с) :D
In reply to LeBron
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Well, maxing out the cons on the first level was pretty cool:D

But you're being unfair to the swamp.
For example, a dwarf fortress at level 100, with 46 gnolls, 18 lizards, and 2 dryads at level 114, is easily taken, with losses of 10 gnolls and occasionally 1-2 lizards!!!
Exactly!

1). Upgrading lizards isn't critical for tempo.
2). Lately, if you have a level 2 town and at least 20 lizards, you almost always upgrade them, and it pays off. Hydras are usually placed in the castle without any problems, and what else do you need?
3). If you have more than 15 lizards, and Tazar has ranged attack, then it makes a lot of sense to spend tempo on upgrading and be content with hydras in the citadel (or cows in the castle).
4). Tazar with ranged attack, experience armor, and about 6 defense breaks all medusa lairs except for maxed ones.
5). If you have a reserve of dryads, then with 4 dryads, 20+ archers, and 40+ gnolls (I don't remember if basilisks are needed), and a secondary army, you can break a maxed dwarf fortress on the swamp without a grand stack. I did this once, and usually all the dryads and lizards survive.

6). If Vistan also arrives, then it makes sense to upgrade his ranged attack (and at the same time consider making him the main hero), then medusa lairs also fall, although with losses of most of the gnolls.
In reply to Oelm
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Oelm

6). If Wistan has also arrived, then it makes sense to level up his shooting skills (and at the same time, consider making him the main hero); then the Medusa will also fall, although with greater losses among the Gnolls.
or maybe just choose Wistan as the starting hero? ;)

"Это нам идеально подходит!" [Новосибирск, 2013]
"Красавчик! Если только не читер.." [Киев, 2014]
"Это Вам не шутки - нажрался Dust в маршрутке" [Новокузнецк, 2015]
Сам ты фиш (с) :D
In reply to LeBron
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Or maybe just choose Wistan as the starting hero?

That's a perfectly viable alternative!
I guess I just play according to tradition. With Tazar, if you manage to gather a lot of ducks and angels, he seems to be stronger. And Wistan in Soda can get up to <20 bows in total – a risk. Although on some maps, he might have a better start.

P.S. Another trick for the swamp:
Thanks to the fast dragonflies, spellcasters who deal hit-based damage look very strong. In one of my games, I got Andra, so I ran around, boosting her magic stats, learned Bolt as a secondary skill, and slightly improved her in the beginning. By the end of the second week (as far as I remember), I arrive on the opponent's territory with 7 groups of dragonflies. Mana is around 150. Strength is 8-10+magic:) Now, if someone attacks me, I take down the archers and pay them off. If there are no archers, then there's a good chance for a double cast. A random hero attacked me with 20+ griffons and something else. So I slowed them down and destroyed his entire army. The main hero attacked, I cast Bolt on the archers, and with a sense of accomplishment, I paid him off). The game was decided.
In reply to LeBron
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LeBron
I'll bet :)
I don't have that kind of practice either in Dungeon or in general, but I'll allow myself to disagree:
1) Dungeon is the "least favorite" town for the generator, because it is the only one that doesn't have a "native" above-ground respawn (only dirt). This results in restarts often being spent on finding a normal starting location, rather than on the choice of secondary heroes, starting army, etc.
Moreover, playing Dungeon is the biggest gamble, as the town is quite dangerous (the strongest native population). Absolutely everything fights in melee at full strength, while having 2 quite strong shooters, 3 flying units, and 2 powerful infantry! + the cheesy Shakti, but it's also easier for the generator to ruin Dungeon than any other town (Baev's guys should have been allowed to play Shakti in the inter-portal) ;)

2) I completely disagree with the formula of 110+70 in the second week, because a native hero won't always appear in the first or second week + very rarely does Shakti go through the first week without losses (if he fights a lot, of course), since there's little neutral fodder and it's not always more attractive than Troglodytes + morale in almost every fight is critical for Troglodyte losses + any shooter blocks almost always lead to considerable losses, especially when you send Troglodytes through the chain so the noobs can fight.
Count on everything going smoothly?
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Oelm +1. To my shame, I didn't know about Utopia...
Сейчас балуюсь этим https://vcmi.eu/download/
За то что нейтралы не бегают за единичкой, для меня это уже стоит того
In reply to Oelm
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Oelm
That's a viable alternative!
I tend to stick to tradition. If I can manage to get a good number of ducks and angels with Tazar, he seems to be the stronger choice. As for Wistan, in SoD, he can potentially get up to <20 bows in total, which is a risk. Although, on some maps, he might have a better starting position.

P.S. Another trick for the swamp:
Thanks to the fast dragonflies, hit-and-run mages become very effective. In one of my games, I got Andra, so I focused on magic skills, learned Bolt in the secondary skill, and gave her a slight boost in the beginning. By the end of the second week (as far as I remember), I arrived on the opponent's territory with 7 groups of dragonflies. I had around 150 mana. Strength 8-10+spellpower:) Now, if someone attacks me, I eliminate the archers and then pay them off. If there are no archers, I have a good chance of casting a double spell. A random hero attacked me with 20+ griffons and other units. I slowed them down and destroyed his entire army. The main hero attacked, I cast Bolt on the archers, and then, feeling satisfied, I paid him off. The game was decided.
Yes, that happened to me, I remember. I eventually killed her, but I'm not sure if it was at the end of the second week.
In reply to Lider1
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I remember: someone named Oelm promised to provide an interesting and useful description on the temporary branch of Heroesworld:
Many consider Inferno to be a weak faction, but they managed to take a Consul-max on lava without a greased stack, without hiding places, and without magic on the 2nd week. When Heroesworld is up and running, I'll make a description.
We're really looking forward to it :)
Ибу ибуди - хуйдао муди - Шаг за шагом можно достигнуть цели (китайская мудрость)

Кто к нам с пером придёт, тот от пера и погибнет!:smile51:
In reply to КостяN
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KostyaN
I remember that someone named Oelm promised to provide an interesting and useful description on the temporary branch of the World forum:
We are looking forward to it.
By the way. I assume that it was either due to double-building or due to having small camps or hives taken beforehand. Otherwise, it's simply unrealistic:rolleyes:
In reply to Alex_R
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Alex_R
I don't have that much playtime with Dungeon or in general, but I'll allow myself to disagree:
1) Dungeon is the most "unloved" town for the generator, since it's the only one that doesn't have a "native" surface spawn (only dirt).
-1 for all my games with Dungeon, and as you can see there were quite a few, NOT ONCE was there an unplayable generation
Alex_R
Because of this, we get that restarts are often spent looking for a normal starting location, and not on the selection of secondary heroes and starting army, etc.
I generally don't take restarts often — and with Dungeon, only in the rarest cases

Moreover, playing Dungeon is the biggest gamble, since the town is quite dangerous (the strongest native population) absolutely everyone fights in melee at full strength, while having 2 fairly strong shooters, 3 flying units, and 2 powerful infantry! + cheaty Shakti, but the generator can crush Dungeon easier than any other town
well, this is completely unfounded :mad: the portal statistics of Drim are proof of that

(The Baew players should have been allowed to play Shakti in the inter-portal) ;)
Vasya gave me blue Dungeon against red Ramp in the inter-portal :rolleyes: and there wasn't any chocolate anywhere near there ;) I think the result is known:)

2) I absolutely disagree with the formula 110+70 in the second week, since you don't always get a native hero in the first and second weeks + Shakti very rarely gets through the first week without losses
and for 110 +50-70 you don't need a native hero ;) that's the basic variant without a bug like Lorelei and 1 stack

(if he fights a lot, of course), since there is little off-hand meat and it's not always more attractive than Troglodytes + morale in almost every fight is critical for Troglodyte losses + any shooter blocks almost always lead to significant losses, especially when you send Troglodytes through the chain so the noobs can fight.
well, this is already a substantive question about the level of play — look at how Paladin plays; he sometimes doesn't even lose a single one in difficult fights. I won't argue there are places where losses are inevitable, but minimizing them is quite possible — my standard losses per week are 10-15 Trogs — and Shakti is consistently level 8-9
Rely on chocolate for everything?
I consider standard variants taking into account possible rests. All this is IMHO based on personal experience. Apologies if I'm too harsh in places, but I simply can't act otherwise when my favorite town is being slighted:)

"Это нам идеально подходит!" [Новосибирск, 2013]
"Красавчик! Если только не читер.." [Киев, 2014]
"Это Вам не шутки - нажрался Dust в маршрутке" [Новокузнецк, 2015]
Сам ты фиш (с) :D
In reply to КостяN
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KostyaN
I remember that someone named Oelm promised to provide an interesting and useful description on the temporary branch of the World forum:
We are looking forward to it.
Well, coming up with a strategy isn't that difficult. The army and the hero are typical for the 2nd week, without additional troops and even without summoning demons.

All that's needed on top of that is upgrading the ifrits, using the Spirit of Despair, a wagon, and a little bit of ingenuity :).

P.S. The idea isn't mine.

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