Top on HW — General — HeroesWorld

Wicc

17 years ago

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There's no need to borrow negative aspects from other websites. First and foremost, this includes the tendency to group players based on affiliation, etc. The world is becoming more globalized, and this is the most progressive trend. Restrictions will only hinder development.

Ideally, most players shouldn't have a strong sense of belonging to a particular website. This is partly because the views of the website's management may not be shared by all of its players. There's no need to look far for examples...

If you want team competitions, you can organize them without inter-website conflicts; simply divide into groups based on who agrees to play with whom. I don't see the point in dividing players into "ours" and "plays with us, but isn't one of us." Playing benefits both the resource and the player.

Personally, I have never tried to get into any of Baya's teams, even though I have been in the top 10 by any criteria for a long time. This is because I dislike these labels and the resulting arguments.

In reply to StickyFingaz

Dirty_Player

17 years ago

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Since we're already discussing this, I'd like to share my thoughts. Nagana, as always, is praised for his wise and insightful words! The idea of limiting the number of participants from different resources is a good one and should be considered.
I believe that the top league should be structured as a round-robin tournament with 8 or 10 players.
In my opinion, a Swiss-system tournament with ten players is simply absurd, and a larger number of participants would diminish the experience.
The first and second divisions are unnecessary.
An open qualifying tournament should be held for everyone who wants to participate!
Since we need to start somewhere, we can make the first tournament invitation-only and simultaneously open registration for the next one.
The top five players from the main tournament will participate in the next one, and the remaining five will come from the qualifying tournament. Another point to consider is preventing participants in the main tournament from also participating in the qualifying tournament.

P.S.: There's also an unpleasant situation related to removing a player from a tournament (real-life problems don't just disappear). This situation might go unnoticed in the qualifying tournament, but it's worth considering in advance for the main tournament to avoid a situation like the one that occurred at HB.

In reply to Nagan-4

Rhox

17 years ago

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Nagan-4

A round-robin system, say, for 10 players, is fair for determining the best, but unlike the Swiss system, where everyone plays, due to its closed nature, it will provide little for our resource to improve skills, and that's why.
How do you like this prospect - in the main Tournaments of the World, in the top ten, there are, say, 6 players from Bay and 4 from Portal...

I agree. But options with a filter are also not very good in this regard. Because if players only play "with their own," without the participation of strong players from other resources, then skill growth is unlikely to be significant.

Nagan-4

The World could become a battlefield not only in games but also in squabbles, i.e., how a Portal player offended a Bay player or vice versa, and what kind of... weirdos they are after that - I don't want that on the World.

In general, it might be better not to divide players into "ours" and "others"; everyone who appears here is "one of us."
This approach will certainly ensure greater popularity for the resource and prestige for the championship (Tournament) on it.

Perhaps, in general, a Tournament with the status of a HW championship could be held every six months, and not only the top 10, but everyone could participate. Play the entire Tournament using the Swiss system.

Because when drawing up the next round, opponents are determined, taking into account an equal or approximately equal number of points, after 3-4 rounds, we will get that very group of strong players who will play among themselves, and players with a slightly smaller number of points will continue to have a chance to join the fight, and so on.

It can be held in rounds of 2 weeks, that is, 12 rounds in six months.

The results of such a Tournament can be considered the main ranking on HW, or rather, it should be, this will maintain the motivation of players who, after half of the Tournament, say, have scored a small number of points, to continue the fight and climb higher in the ranking.

And if it is necessary to assemble a team for some match, then it is quite possible to choose from those who want to play in a match based on the rating (result of the Tournament).
That is, there are no conditions for players participating in the Tournament to play for the World in matches. But choose from those who want to.

In theory, people can join such a Tournament not from the very beginning; for example, a new player arrives, and 5 rounds have already been played; let him join with 0 points, of course, he will still have time to score some points.

Thus, we will have both a champion of the resource and prize-winners, and a top 10, 15, etc.

And with a schedule of 1 game every 2 weeks, those who wish can also play in other Tournaments in parallel.

There are also thoughts that if we take good ideas from other resources, then we should play not only 2sm4d3, but also other templates, 8mm6, Spider, etc.

For example, one round on one template, the second round on the second, the third on the third, and so on.

Play not only SoD, but also allow TE, if the players wish.

StickyFingaz

17 years ago

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The issue with unplayed matches is being resolved; we just need to clarify a couple of details.

In reply to Wicc

Rhox

17 years ago

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Wicc

The world is becoming globalized, and this is the most progressive trend. Restrictions will only hinder development.
.....

+1, :) I was writing my previous post for a long time, and I hadn't seen yours yet.

And yes, THERE IS NO NEED FOR A SEPARATE TOURNAMENT FOR RANK 10,
LET'S HAVE A SWISS SYSTEM FOR EVERYONE, IT WILL CHOOSE THE BEST ONES ITSELF.

Simple solutions are the most effective!

And regarding various "issues": There won't be any problems with unscheduled games after a player is removed.

ewgeniy

17 years ago

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You could run a tournament lasting 2 weeks, which means 12 tournaments in half a year.

:smile07: Do you want me to not leave the computer?:smile15:

In reply to Rhox

КостяN

17 years ago

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My humble opinion, of course, doesn't carry much weight here, but I still suggest organizing a tournament in the form of TWO leagues plus a qualifying round for all those who want to compete for a spot in the lower of these two leagues. Accordingly, in the second-highest league, the competition will be for a place in the TOP. In the highest league, there should be, say, 10, or even better, a little more, maybe 12 – just in case of a necessary replacement in inter-portal tournaments. In the second league, there should be somewhere between 10 and 20, and the top 5 advance to the higher league. And from the qualifying round, you could make about ten (if there are 20 in the second league) qualifying spots, or at least 7-8... So that there's a constant flow of new players!

In reply to КостяN

invisible

17 years ago

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2. We create a filter.
2a. A strict filter: only those who consider World their "heroic home" will play.
2b. A selective filter: those who confirm their desire to play for the World team in matches will play, and they will not be allowed to play against us in inter-resource matches.

I was driving home, and the same thought occurred to me. That's why I rushed home to express these thoughts. But they have already been expressed. I believe that each person will decide for themselves to which resource they belong. But in the tournament regulations, it should be formalized, like what the respected Nagan said:

Those who confirm their desire to play for the World team in matches will play, and they will not be allowed to play against us in inter-resource matches.

But these are just nuances. What I don't understand is that some players are against such a tournament... There will be one more tournament on the HW forum. Is that bad?! Or does someone simply not like the MOTIVATION of the tournament?! Maybe we should still let the tournament start? And whether it takes root or not, we will see later! I remember that someone was against ranked games! We tried it. It worked. The number of players on HW SIGNIFICANTLY increased. Is that bad?! Let the Higher League tournament also start, and in the process, we will see what to do with it, whether it is needed, and whether to introduce a second/third, etc. league!
I understand that Zhenya may not be able to handle such a tournament on his own, while also running other tournaments. Therefore, I offer my help to Zhenya and will do everything in my power to make such a tournament happen! I will participate in it myself!:p

Pit for LM

17 years ago

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Right now, everything is being viewed through the lens of the Interportal (I've already played 7 games and that's not all), so I'll express my opinion from that perspective. I think that the discussion about new tournaments is also caused by our not-so-stellar performance. Nagan-4 has already raised the question of how we can win the next tournament. There are two components here. The first is organizational issues: team formation, rules, templates, versions... The second is improving the skill level of the players. The tournament being discussed is supposed to kill two birds with one stone – we'll get a team roster and improve our skills. But this creates a contradiction. To form a HW team, we need to hold a tournament that is closed to players from other resources. To improve the game, we need to strengthen the tournament roster. Regarding the first point. There is experience in forming teams in three ways: HW – voting, HP – voting + qualifying games, HB – the captain determines the roster. Our team was represented by a good roster. In the future, we probably need to change our method somewhat. For example: 30% – voting, 30% – the captain's decision, 40% – a qualifying mini-tournament. We don't know the dates of the next tournament where a team will be needed, nor the version, template, or opponent. None of the players can confidently say that they will definitely play at a specific time in half a year or a year, or what they will be playing, and there are many possible circumstances. Therefore, we need to form a team for a specific tournament. Tournament preparation always takes a certain amount of time – a month or so. During this time, everything can be done. The captain holds a vote, based on which and on his own opinion, determines 60% of the roster, and we hold a tournament among those who did not make the roster but want to defend the honor of HW. The vote will show the opinion of the people (they will vote for those who play well in the rating and tournaments), the captain will be able to invite strong players who, for some reason, are not actively playing on HW at the moment (as was the case with Alex R in the summer), and anyone who wants to can try to prove their abilities – Loy, Aldegyr, Vigo... Regarding the second point. We want to improve the game – we play with everyone, participate in strong tournaments, and attract the best players from other resources.

Wicc

We don't need to borrow the negative aspects from other sites. First of all, this is the clumping together based on affiliation, etc. The world is becoming globalized, and this is the most progressive trend. Restrictions will only hinder development. Ideally, most players would not have a strong site affiliation. If you want team competitions, you can arrange them without inter-site squabbles, simply by dividing into groups based on who agrees with whom and playing. I don't see the point in dividing players into "ours" and "plays for us, but not ours." Playing benefits both the resource and the player.

+1 If we are so afraid of the arrival of top players from Baya (which seems unlikely to me), we can introduce a minimum number of games played in the rating over the past two seasons, for example, 12 (that's one game every 2 weeks on average). If a person plays on HW, why shouldn't they be able to participate in the best tournament? And not allowing Paladin, Vitalik, LeBron, Kebazavr, and Voland to play is both funny, sad, and very stupid. We are robbing ourselves.

Loi

17 years ago

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I agree with Pete's opinion.

If a person plays on HW, why shouldn't they be allowed to participate in the best players' tournament? And not allowing Paladin, Vitalik, LeBron, Kebazavr, Voland to play in the tournament is both funny and sad, and very stupid. We are robbing ourselves.

.
+1.

Off-topic (maybe it will help someone):
If we are to determine the general direction of the Heroes community's development, in my opinion, the recent interportal tournament is just the first stage. The next stage of development should be tournaments that combine resources.
In short, the slogan:
"From Interportal to Allportal!".
P.S. Regarding the topic - there are many leagues on three resources. Wouldn't it be more reasonable to create one general league? Or maybe this tournament in the Unified League should take turns on each resource, like the Olympics? - so that each resource would have the honor of hosting it. Although, maybe at the moment it's a utopia... (or Utopia :)). But if anything, I will disciplinedly accept any decision - especially since Evgeny has already said something specific, and so has Invisible.

Nagan-4

17 years ago

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2 Pit- In-Sake of LM

Regarding the second part. We want to improve the game – we play with everyone, participate in strong Tournaments, and attract the best players from other resources.

That's the dilemma. If we hold an open tournament for the best players, at the level of RP on Bay, we can easily get 7-8 players from other resources in the top ten. And our players from World will play in the lower league, among themselves or with non-top guest players. We still won't get the expected improvement in the skills of our players.

If it's a General Swiss system, then the status of the tournament will decrease psychologically. What will then distinguish the top league from the tournament that the respected Dzhavdet is currently organizing? Top guests can play there and here, as well as amateurs of any level. The elitism and status of the championship will disappear.
I don't know, nothing comes to mind yet.

2 Loi

Offtopic (maybe it will help someone):
If we are to determine the General direction of the development of the Heroes community, in my opinion, the recent interportal tournament is only the first stage. The next stage of development should be tournaments that unite resources.
In short, the slogan:
"From Interportal to Allportal!".
P.S. Regarding the topic - it requires a lot of leagues on three resources. But wouldn't it be wiser to create one General league? Or maybe this Allportal tournament should take place in turn on each resource, like the Olympics? - so that each resource has the honor of hosting it. Although, maybe at the moment it's a utopia... (or Utopia).

For now, I doubt it. In the very first round of the Allportal, verbal battles will unfold, see the topics of inter-resource tournaments. And if there is also a prize fund, an even bigger mess will begin.
If you remember the previous conflicts between random players and fixed players, three-player and four-player players, Muscovites and Petersburgers - all this is child's play; there has never been such a juicy verbal showdown.
Perhaps it's worth waiting, everything will naturally settle down over time.

P.S., friends from Portal are also discussing a similar tournament on their resource.

http://heroesportal.net/tavern/?id=260962&pagenum=1

In reply to Nagan-4

Rhox

17 years ago

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Nagan-4

2 Pit- In-Sake of LM

If it's a general Swiss-system tournament, then the status of the tournament decreases psychologically. How will the top league differ from the tournament that Mr. Javdet is currently organizing?

The status of the tournament can be maintained by the fact that the tournament itself is a ranking for HW, meaning there will be an incentive to compete for the top 20 and top 10. And the tournament itself is positioned as a championship.

After a few rounds, everyone will have roughly equal opponents. And as a player's skill increases, they will play better, score more points, and play against stronger opponents.

The lineup for the Jebus tournament is simply great, it will be great if everyone participates.

In reply to Rhox

Oelm

17 years ago

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What I don't understand is that some players are against a tournament like this... There will be one more tournament on the HeroesWorld forum. Is that a bad thing?! Or does someone simply not like the MOTIVATION of the tournament?! Maybe we should still let the tournament start? Whether it will take root or not, we'll see later!

As I understand it, this is directed at me as well. I'll answer like this: I myself don't like unconstructive criticism, but amidst the general enthusiasm, it seemed to me that many hidden pitfalls were simply going unnoticed. And those pitfalls are serious. I wrote my post in that form on purpose, to shift the focus away from what seemed to me like excessive hype.

Naturally, the words that I am against such a tournament do not mean that I am simply against any new tournament, but that this tournament has something—if you will—a "motivation" that didn't sit well with me.

And this notorious "motivation" was not entirely clear, there was no specificity, and if you tried to infer it, it turned out that misunderstandings and controversial situations in the tournament were inevitable.

By now, most people, especially after the posts by Nagan and Pit, already understand the main "hidden pitfalls," and there is more certainty. Naturally, if the contentious issues can be resolved, I will support the tournament, even if I can't participate in it (it depends not only on desire).

On the substance: I am still against the HeroesWorld team being selected solely based on this tournament. In principle, I support Pit 100%.

And one more thing: even though I am reproached for not having participated in tournaments, I'll take the risk and write one more consideration. In general, it was immediately clear to many that the idea of the tournament would sooner or later become analogous to "RP". And it seems to me that the RP idea is gradually outliving itself. When Baa appeared as a separate community, truly the strongest players gathered there. Now the situation is different. There are 2 other communities where strong players have emerged. And the future, in my opinion, lies in integration (movement towards unification). So why huddle in our own corners then? RP should be singular, and copies are always worse than the original.

In reply to Oelm

El Magnifico Sonic`

17 years ago

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Oelm

And the future, in my opinion, lies in integration (movement toward unification). So why huddle together in your own corners then? RP should be one, and copies are always worse than the original.

If that's the case, then let's close HeroesWorld and Heroic Ruins, and all go to Bai... We need to unite, after all :eek: !!!
IMHO, a tournament is needed, and it should have a clear link to the resource!
Anyone can participate in it, but every participant must understand that this is a tournament for ranking on this resource, and by participating, YOU align yourself with THIS resource! :cool:

Wicc

17 years ago

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"Empires are built on imperial ambitions" (c) don't remember.

To stand out from the gray mass, you need to play not catch-up, but ahead of the curve. This obvious thesis is understood by few, and implemented by even fewer.

In fact, most Heroes players (and indeed most people in life) are more inclined to catch up and copy more advanced examples. But to surpass others, you need to use more progressive concepts that public thought hasn't yet reached.

A fresh example — I recently made scripts to change the content of preserves/hives, introduced them into tournament practice, and announced that they would be enabled by default in 1.03r. Some people immediately started testing them, researching the issue, figuring out capture options for week 1 and week 2, making balance suggestions for the content, etc. But some started negotiating with opponents to disable these scripts. The reasons are understandable (laziness, unfamiliarity, playing for fun, etc.), but later these guys will find themselves in the role of the catch-up players — the progressive part of the player base will have long since devised capture strategies and will actively use them, gaining an advantage, while these others will be learning the hard way in far more important games than now. Or they'll wait for Stinger/Alex/someone else to show and tell them how and what to do.

And the same story with TE — the most advanced part of the HeroesWorld and HeroesPortal community, if not actively playing, at least tests TE, broadening their horizons and gaining the opportunity to play against stronger opponents. It's telling that, according to estimates from bai players, the strongest play (on SoD) is demonstrated precisely by such individuals.

So, as for the Higher League, the principle is the same — you don't need to blindly copy the organizational schemes of HeroesBattle and HeroesPortal; at best, you'll end up in the role of the little brother. Better to carve out your own niche — fortunately, there are plenty of options.