Posts from Discussion about ATB in Heroes of Might and Magic V.

I think ATB needs a little rebalancing. For me, this is a pleasant situation because I won, but if I were playing as those 60 zombies that I shot down with all my ranged units, I would be upset that I only made 2 moves in the battle, while my opponents each got 4 turns.

That's what ATB is like. If you don't have initiative, you're doomed.
It's possible that this will add more tactics to the game, but who knows.

There's an opinion (not mine, but Catherine's, though I almost agree) that the ATV scale is inherently unbalanced... That's how it is...

Will the esteemed developers actually work on this (balancing)? IMHO, they are more likely to draw more naked elves and decide that everything else is irrelevant to the players!

There's an opinion (not mine, but Catherine's, though I almost agree) that the Initiative bar is inherently unbalanced... That's how it is...

Since the conversation turned to me, here's my take.
I must immediately state that I have never heard of any alternative ways to balance the Initiative bar from anyone.
Let's take a look.
What did we have with the old turn-based system? 1 turn, one attack, one response. That is, we always knew how many turns each side would take. There is, of course, also Morale, but its frequency is small enough that it can be ignored, or the Leadership skill can be given to equalize the opponents.
There is also the option of 4, I think it is the best, but most people did not like these innovations, so we will not touch it.
And when the number of attacks is the same, we can derive some constant coefficient (in our case, "1") and use it to calculate the balance.
Even if we have a slow zombie, we can teleport it, and it will fight on par with everyone else. 1 attack, 1 response per turn.
And now, the Initiative bar.
Firstly, there is no concept of a turn. But the worst thing is that there is no single constant value. For example, there is a beta test going on now. Most players play with one tactic. But now, let's say I appear and, instead of the usual fast-paced battle and carnage, I do things differently: for the first few turns, I press "Defense." I accumulate the bar, and then, for 15 turns, only I will move. I deeply respect all my opponents who told me about the problem-free nature of the Initiative bar, but this approach destroys the existing balance. Because the main thing becomes not what units you have, not their damage and speed, but only the Initiative parameter. That is, Chimeras are useless if a Griffin moves more often. With its increase, gaining three or four turns in a row, it will simply overwhelm an equivalent increase in Chimeras.
You will say that the characteristics of high-Initiative units can be reduced... But how will Nival calculate how many times I will press "Defense" to accumulate turns on the bar? After all, theoretically, by teleporting my unit away from the enemy, I can fill the entire bar with my turns using "Defense."
Balance:confused: No. And it never will be.

Will the respected developers address this (balancing)? IMHO, they are more likely to draw more naked elves and decide that everything else doesn't matter to the players!

You're probably right.

So, I don't understand, when you activate Defense, does the initiative get summed up and accumulated? I thought that the unit just moves forward in the queue, but not to the end, but somewhere in the middle... :eek:

So, I don't understand, when you press "Defense," does the initiative accumulate and build up? I thought that the unit just moves forward in the queue, but not all the way to the end, but somewhere in the middle... :eek:

If the unit moved directly to the end of the queue, it would be a turn-based system with elements of ATB (Action Turn-Based). And since one unit often goes before another by several turns, it seems that the initiative is accumulated. But in any case, this is a universal option. Moving the unit to the middle of the queue (if you press "Defense" three times) is already great, especially with only two stacks on the battlefield.
It seems that we are talking about the end of the unit'

No, I don't quite agree. I think "defense" is simply a unit delaying its turn until better (more convenient) times, but sooner or later it will still take its turn, or it will be overtaken by units that move along the scale without pressing the "defense" button – so everything is fine...

either he will be overtaken by units that move along the scale without pressing the defense button - so everything is fine...

They might overtake him, but whether they'll actually reach him is another story :)
I can explain how to protect one specific stack :)
Even if I was wrong about accumulating initiative, we have a combination of a unit and a hero with the same initiative. Meaning they move in turn. We do it like this: Pixies (no retaliation) and Teleport them out of there. Or even more aggressively with angels and Teleport.
Here's what's interesting: if you have a Phoenix (it seems to be the most initiative-heavy), then the hero will cast one spell on it while it moves several times. But if you have zombies, you can cast many spells, but it will move only once, if it moves at all :)

Well, after playing the beta, we can analyze the ATB scale. Defense simply skips a turn. And you get a 30% bonus to defense. It doesn't affect the frequency of turns on the scale in any way. Turn Frequency This is very strongly dependent on initiative. Units with an initiative of less than 10 are better not to build at all (they won't go anyway). But it's a pity that you have to build zombies because they are a prerequisite for the town hall, but they are not useful because they don't move. And hydras and treants seem to be almost like spies. Depending on the obstacles, a hydra can block the entire allied army. And the opponent will deliberately slow it down so that you don't get a turn. Turn Order I never thought that this issue would arise in Heroes, but the fact is that the first turn is distributed randomly. Even a zombie can go first. This, in turn, prevents griffins from killing a Sprite. Because the random gives a turn to the Sprites, and they cast a spell, summoning a Hive and pushing the griffins further and further back. They can even kill the entire stack, and the griffins won't get a turn. Morale It is definitely not equal. If it's negative, you simply skip a turn, but if it's positive, you get an increased frequency for the entire battle. So, after Morale, the witches went three times in a row, and this is not the limit. Morale could have worked one more time. Rollback on the scale If your unit is hit, it can move back on the scale. This is simply fatal for certain types of monsters. These were the facts. I haven't changed my opinion about the uselessness of the ATB. There aren't many tactics here. You build high-initiative units, and that's it (Academics (+10 to initiative (minor artifact)) are incredibly powerful).

So, balance is needed. ATV is a cool thing, but not fully developed, or rather, not thoroughly thought out. You can try to balance it by experimenting with the values for different creatures. Perhaps it makes sense to give some creatures bonuses to defense when fighting certain types of enemies, or something like that.
PS It's difficult for me to judge, as I haven't played the beta, so my judgments are based solely on the statements of other forum users. If I said something wrong, I apologize, it wasn't intentional.

There is a problem here. I have already repeated this many times, but I will say it once more.
In ATB, we cannot determine how many times an angel acts per battle relative to a zombie. That is, the ratio could be 1:2, 1:4, 1:5, 2:5, etc.
And relative to a Sprite, the ratio is different again.
This means that any value of unit characteristics does not constitute balance. Because they will be calculated based on certain ratios, but the player will be able to change those ratios depending on the situation, either by stalling or simply depriving the opponent of turns with a large number of strikes.
But in a round-based system, the ratio is 1:1. Consequently, the balance fits within the range of damage variance.
Options
1. Introduction of simultaneous strikes. This would compensate for the lack of initiative among monsters.
2. The defense button becomes a "skip turn" button. High-initiative units will not be able to strike and add to their own defense. Low-initiative units will essentially be entering combat all the time.
3. Remove the Academy's bonuses to initiative.
Not a great solution, but IMHO it will bring us slightly closer to balance:)

Got it!!! Well, it's a masterpiece (of course, if it's brought into order). I don't know about others, but I'm getting tired of battles that can be calculated with pinpoint accuracy up to the 4th round. But here, you have to think about the response separately for each attack or just move. I like it (I repeat, with proper balance)! It's almost a new approach, but I'm afraid it's controversial in terms of balancing. Let's hope it doesn't turn out like with the 4th installment.

The mini-artifacts for initiative in the beta simply don't work, and even if they did, they shouldn't work as described (I specifically asked one of the closed beta testers, and he said that in reality, it's not +24, but +2.4, which is a completely different matter and quite acceptable). Ugh, I'm so tired of answering questions about Hydras. Everyone is saying how useless they are, and even that they're detrimental to the player (although Infiltrator from the Ubisoft forum, who probably played with them more than anyone else, fortunately thinks otherwise). I agree that they move infrequently, but is the value of any unit solely based on dealing damage? Are there no other tactical considerations? For example, holding out until the hero's next cast or blocking a Matron from any enemies of size 2x2... In my opinion, all the arguments about accumulating initiative during a battle and then taking several turns in a row are only valid for battles with neutral creatures. In PvP, you'll simply get hit with magic for being too fond of using Defense with units that shouldn't be used for that.

I agree that they move rarely, but is the value of any unit only in dealing damage? Do no other tactical thoughts come to mind? For example, holding out until the hero's next cast or shielding matrons from any enemies of size 2*2 ...

It's better to use scouts for shielding matrons. And a hydra might even block the matrons themselves. Just standing there and pressing defense with the goal of holding out until the hero's turn won't work either. Because you've committed your fool, and then you just bash them for free with high-initiative units until it's her turn to move. Plus, her stats are very weak. How can a hydra stand up to a Druid? And in general, this is a problem for all walking monsters. On such a battlefield against ATB they are simply outplayed easily.

It's better to use scouts to take out the Matrons. And the Hydra can even block the Matrons themselves. Simply standing there and pressing "Defense" with the goal of holding out until the hero's turn won't work either. Because you've given up a weak unit, and then high-initiative units will attack for free until it's the Hydra's turn. And her stats are very weak. How can a Hydra counter a Druid? And in general, this is a problem for all melee monsters. On such a battlefield with ranged attacks, they are easily taken down.

Okay, I'll answer each point:

Regarding the scout – doesn't the fact that it will be taken down with one hit matter?

Regarding blocking the Matrons themselves – do they need to run anywhere?

Regarding "giving up a weak unit" and then attacking – this applies to neutral creatures. Where will you find one in PvP? And there are also high-initiative units on the side of the Hydras and Matrons, and the Matrons can easily reduce the initiative of someone particularly agile by half. I've used simply pressing "Defense" repeatedly because, as I said, it needs to be until the HERO's turn, not the Hydra's (and with an Expert Sorcerer, the initiative is approximately 13, I've checked empirically).

Regarding countering the Druid – I don't see how the Druid is better (in PvP, of course; as neutral creatures, Hydras are definitely easier to defeat). 8 Elder Druids (weekly growth from a castle) = 264 HP, 6 Chaos Hydras (weekly growth) = 600 HP + regeneration. So, which is better?
(I'm not claiming that Hydras are good in all cases, but definitely for a mage hero.)

Regarding the problem of all melee units – yes, as neutral creatures, they are easier to defeat than ranged and caster units. But this has been the case in all the Heroes series. Simultaneous attacks also didn't solve the problem because "single-damage" attacks and spells with 1 damage were used extensively. In my opinion, the only way to solve it is to introduce additional retaliations (like the Griffin). The higher the level of the monster, the more retaliations it has; for ranged and caster units, this number is lower than for melee units.