Tactics for Dungeon. — Tactics

invisible

18 years ago

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when playing 2/2 or 3/3, even 1/1 NECROS can only compete with CONFLUX and INFERNO!!!

I used to think that way too, but later, after analyzing it, I realized that necros are only scary starting from week 3. If you attack on week 2, they have very few chances. I tried to prove to one player that necros are powerful, but a lot depends on the layout. I once had 127 350 skeletons and 5 angels (could have been 8, but I was a bit unlucky). In that game I was playing against Rampart with Ivor at the helm, and had the potential to win, but I messed up a bit in the FF and consequently lost. So, for the hundredth time, I say that there are no weak towns, only weak players. For example, I don't know how to play Tower or Inferno. But there are players who consider Tower a strong town and can actually prove it in practice. Someone here was laughing at the fact that Fortress is a weak town! I personally believe that if I'm playing Fortress not against Rampart, Dungeon, or Conflux, I have an advantage, especially if I start with Tazar.

One of the few downsides — starting on a map with Dungeon, you begin in a cave.

Dungeon is bad because the narrow passages cause many blockages; also, the underground is usually poor, though it can be the opposite — lots of dwarf cottages (tons of experience and gold), crypts, and so on. In Dungeon, troglodytes have an extra +1 speed, which is very important, especially for taking conservatories. Upgraded trogs in the underground under Shakti's leadership have speed 7, which allows you to take almost any conservatory as early as 121 with just troglodytes and no losses.

Their large numbers in final battles greatly distract the enemy.

The strength of Dungeon lies precisely in its piercing power from the start with the help of trogs! I'm not saying that trogs rest in the final battle, but with a more or less decent layout, Dungeon's strength is in its furious tempo, which troglodytes facilitate! I had online games where, having built only an Eye in the citadel in three weeks, I completely cleared several respawns with just troglodytes!!!

Minotaurs. Decent cannon fodder.

A very mistaken statement! Minotaurs are not cannon fodder :). Minotaurs are a shock stack! Many build manticores at all costs in the first week. I personally build them in the first week only when I have their external dwelling, or if I have a lot of gold. I prefer to build minotaurs in the citadel or the castle. In terms of combat stats, minotaurs and manticores are almost equal, BUT: minos are cheaper, which allows you to buy them out by 121 without stress! The downside of minotaurs is their low speed, but their upgrade is the solution to all problems. I remember a game where by 131 I had 50+ minotaurs (their external dwelling and a second native town with built summoning portals). I don't know anyone who could beat them: all neutrals died on the first hit from this most powerful stack (too bad I didn't find a water elemental at that time).

BBD no comment

BBD is power, you can't argue with that, but there are few games that allow you to survive long enough to upgrade the dragons!

Я ламер и играть не умею, нах!:smile33:

CFmag

18 years ago

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I'm a Dungeon enthusiast through and through! Minotaurs, Minibosses, Black Dragons...
I consider Minotaurs to be the best creatures of level 5... maybe Gorgons could compete...
Glory to Dungeon!
Glory to Nighon!
Black and Blue! Only black and blue!

Dark Princess

18 years ago

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In my opinion, it's a great Castle... All the units are useful in some way, and many of them are quite strong. Just look at the black dragons with their strength and immunity to magic...

Арсений

18 years ago

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I like the Knight in the Dungeon who has Meteor Shower; I don't remember the Knight's name, but he's very cool. If you play as him, it's great for gathering resources with Meteor Shower. Awesome!!!

Добро потеряешь - не много потеряешь,
честь потеряешь - много потеряешь,
мужество потеряешь - все потеряешь.

Potap

18 years ago

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I read the whole thread, but I still didn't see any tips for playing as Dungeon. There are only arguments about whether a Castle is good or not and complaints that it's difficult to build Eyes. I always play on 200% difficulty. Take the first creature with crystals, and as a bonus, take a servant – that's 2 resources out of 4 available on the second turn. If the map isn't too bad (in that case, I'll rest once – I have the right to do so without explanation), then there will be a lot of some kind of resource lying around. Plus, you can conquer, trade on the market for the last one, or take pearls from the dancer. So, I don't see any particular problems with Eyes; they are built very easily. The only drawback is that you can't always get a good hero in the tavern, and sometimes, on the contrary, you get a hero that fits the situation, like Krag Hag or Mephala.

In reply to Арсений

StraikeR

17 years ago

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Arseniy;188434

You know, I like the Knight in the Dungeon who has Meteor Shower. I don't remember the knight's name, but he's really cool. If you play as a Fortress, it's great to gather resources with Meteor Shower. Awesome!!!

The Meteor Shower specialization... His name is Deemer... he initially has Wisdom and Scouting.
In general, it's great to have this type of player when playing as Necropolis with the hero Aislin, who has Sorcery and Wisdom, and the specialization is, of course, Meteor Shower.

In reply to StraikeR

BlackSerge

17 years ago

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Dungeon is my favorite castle; most players who use other castles usually say that Black Dragons are great, but I disagree. It's just a decent unit that's hard to build. It's very difficult to get it on week 2, and it's okay on week 3. But you still need to upgrade it and buy it, which is very expensive. Let's say we managed to get it on week 3. Dragons are already available, and 1/3 of the game has passed, but we only have red dragons without resurrection. They are just meat on their own!
In my opinion, the most successful unit is Minotaurs. It's better to have 50 minotaurs and 2 dragons than 10 dragons and 20 minotaurs. Even 3 minotaurs on week 1 are already a combat unit; they're great for scaring away neutrals, and 9 of them on week 2 are awesome!
Trogolodites aren't that bad either. Even 30 trogs + a couple of harpies can do a lot (even without a miner, which I don't like). They give you the opportunity to hold out until you get minotaurs and gather resources for them. Then, together with them, they allow you to destroy any dwarf cities on the second week without losing minotaurs. Later, they are needed to storm the Undead; dragons attack them well.
The Dungeon has good unit speed, which is a plus, but the overall castle building is difficult (eyes, minotaurs, and dragons are problematic to get on 200% difficulty).
A plus is the ability for one hero with a basic army to already kill something (if you don't have enough money for the first day). Not all cities can afford this (without buying troops and without buying a second hero). This often gives a good start, allowing you to develop this slow machine. In a long game, the summoning portal will also save you, which often (very often) makes the game. It doesn't matter who it summons (as long as it's not troglodites and harpies). Even eyes and medusas in a population of 2 are a force, not to mention minotaurs and dragons!
Magic is strong, and in combination with mana vortex, it becomes a big threat. They can throw implosion at you. Fortunately, there are decent mages.
It's a good castle, strong in all stages of the game. You can defend against a rush, and you won't be ashamed in the final battle

In reply to BlackSerge

Dirty_Player

17 years ago

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BlackSerge;200376

Black Dragons are really awesome! 300 HP + immunity = cool! It's just that it rarely gets to that point... Personally, I don't remember when I last upgraded to level 7...

Black Dragons are really awesome! 300 HP + immunity = cool! It's just that it rarely gets to that point... Personally, I don't remember when I last upgraded to level 7...

BlackSerge;200376

(I don't even like him without a miner)

Shakti is too good to not take him from the start.
Alternatives:
Gunnar - he can move further, but he can't even dream of hitting like Shakti!
Ajit - with a good setup, you can gather enough eyes on the first day to shoot everyone, but for him to arrive with eyes, and for the second hero to build another one on the first day as well - that's only possible in TE :)
Damacon - you can never have too much gold... But still, Shakti is Shakti, and he can immediately take away so much money that Damacon will be bringing it in for a week!
Das - good starting skills, but Shakti has the same ones :D
And +1 to the speed of a troglodyte is much more important than +1 to the speed of a minotaur, because the lower the base speed, the more significant the bonus! And the starting army is not that great anyway....
Arlash - a cannon is cool, but if he arrives without a ballista, you can immediately surrender, and his attack is not as good as Gurnisson's, so you can't really rely on that....
Sinka - basic literacy is just... meh
Lori-Lei - no comment!!! In TE, you can still find a use for her, but in SoD, definitely NOT!
Warlock - they are not even considered as starting heroes, because you constantly need to replenish mana, and building a GM in the first week is not ideal...
From all this, we can conclude: If you want to control the initiative, start with Shakti!!!!

BlackSerge;200376

in a long game, the summoning portal will also save you

The portal is great everywhere and always! Some build it on the 2nd day if they have a good stash!

BlackSerge;200376

a good castle, strong at all stages of the game

Well, you can't argue with that!!
The only downside is the possible start underground, but the advantages compensate for it!

In reply to Dirty_Player

BlackSerge

17 years ago

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Dirty_Player;200390

Black Dragons are really awesome! 300 HP + immunity = great! It just rarely gets to that point... Personally, I don't remember when I last upgraded to level 7...

I said pretty much the same thing.)

Added 13 minutes ago

Dirty_Player;200390

Shakti is too good to not take him at the start.
Alternatives:
Gunnar - he can move further, but he can't hit as hard as Shakti!
Ajit - if you get lucky, you can gather enough eyes on day 1 to shoot everyone, but for him to come with eyes, and for another hero to build another town on day 1 - that's only possible in TE :)
Damacon - you can never have too much gold... But still, Shakti is Shakti, and he can steal so much money right away that Damacon will be collecting for a week!
Das - good starting skills, but Shakti has the same ones :D
And +1 to the speed of a troglodyte is much more important than +1 to the speed of a minotaur, because the lower the base speed, the more significant the bonus! And the starting army isn't that great anyway....
Arlash - a cannon is cool, but if he comes without a ballista, you can just give up, and his attack isn't as good as Gunnisson's, so you can't really rely on that....
Synca - basic literacy is just... meh
Lori-Lei - no comment!!! You can still find a use for her in TE, but definitely not in SoD!
Warlocks - they are not even considered as starting heroes, because you constantly need to replenish mana, and building a GM on the first week is not ideal...
From all this, we conclude: If you want to control the initiative, start with Shakti!!!!

Shakti has a number of unpleasant drawbacks in addition to his advantages:
1. Due to upgrading troglodytes, he slows down development by a day, which deprives you of either 1 unit or a growth bonus if you sacrifice the Stronghold.
2. If the map is HL and the game is long, then in the final battle with his 300 troglodytes, he is, to put it mildly, not as effective as Das or any hero with another specialization (Jedite and others).
3. There are situations when you don't need that much attack power and you can just collect resources without much stress, building a town (if there are not many gnomes on the map, etc., the scenarios are different).
4. He can also end up in the Tower.
5. +1 to the speed of a minotaur on the same first week is not much worse than +1 to the speed of a troglodyte, and later it's even better.
That's all, and I just don't like him) consider it a personal dislike, and I don't rule out that I will change my mind:smile04:
Gunnar is also very good, but there is one "but", in battle his specialization is absolutely useless.

Added 3 minutes ago

Dirty_Player;200390

The Portal is great everywhere and always! Some build it on day 2 if they have a good stash!

You can even build it on day 1 if you find eyes or medusas, for example. I mean that if the game drags on, the additional + to population seriously tips the scales in your favor.

Added 7 minutes ago
They didn't talk about the artifact market, very helpful boots or gloves bought on weeks 2-3, you can also earn by selling scrolls and significantly increase the chance of collecting some small assembled artifact like cursed daggers or elixir of life (a great artifact and it's easy to collect) which greatly ease your life :) -

In reply to BlackSerge

invisible

17 years ago

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BlackSerge, I really want to say a lot, but I can't be bothered :). Here's my ICQ: 472101962. Let's play: I'll take the blue dungeon with Shakti, and you take the red dungeon with Das. I understand that you don't have online experience, and my post isn't just bragging. I've just read a lot about all this, and I want to prove what Shakti is, who Das is, and in what situations +1 to the speed of Minotaurs and Trogols is effective.

P.S.

5, +1 to the Minotaur's speed in the same first week isn't much worse than +1 to the Trog's speed, and later it's even better.

Personally, in one game, playing as Dungeon, I built only the Eye in the Citadel in three weeks, but I still raised myself to level 20+, cleared several treasure locations, raised a dozen Angels and a couple of dozen Vivs - and all this with just some Trogols :)
ChD (Cyclops Death) are undoubtedly strong, but you usually don't get to them when playing against strong players.

The only downside is the possible start underground, but the advantages compensate for it!

It's ambiguous whether it's better for Dungeon to start underground or above ground. The downsides are that there's less money underground and frequent blockades. But if there are a couple of resource locations (1-2) near the castle, it's a pleasure to take them with Dungeon underground, because Trogols have a speed of 7, which allows you to take them without any stress in the first week without losses, even without a book!

Я ламер и играть не умею, нах!:smile33:

In reply to invisible

BlackSerge

17 years ago

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invisible;200413

BlackSerge, I want to say a lot, but I can't be bothered :). Here's my ICQ: 472101962. Let's play: I'll be blue Dungeon with Shakti, and you be red Dungeon with Das. I understand that you don't have online experience, and my post isn't just bragging. I've read a lot about all this, and I just want to prove what Shakti is, who Das is, and in what situations +1 to the speed of Minotaurs and Trolls matters.

No problem, 417147554. I'll be home after the 19th, although I might have some time constraints, but I think we can find a time. We can chat and arrange a game. Do we need a licensed version for this?

In reply to BlackSerge

invisible

17 years ago

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BlackSerge, I messaged you on ICQ, but please authorize me. When you have time, let me know, and we'll definitely play. A license isn't necessary. The main thing is that you have version 3.2 or 4.0 (Platinum), or the expansion pack. P.S.: Shakti is the best :smile14:

Я ламер и играть не умею, нах!:smile33:

In reply to invisible

КостяN

17 years ago

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Very interesting Castle! In my opinion, Chaos Dragons are second only to Archangels and Titans (and even then, only if there are faster and powerful enough units in the same army as the Titans to break through the Chaos Dragons). Paired with Scorpions, which are often criticized, they seem to form the best assault combination of flying creatures (although Ifrits + Devils might argue with that), but the fact that the Dungeon has two types of ranged units instead of one, like Inferno, puts everything in its place. With the support of a fire or earth mage, who are the strongest here in terms of damage and mana reserves, destroying "meaty" garrisons of almost any Castle is not a problem. In "field" conditions, of course, Minotaurs rule over all their 5th-level counterparts, and against roughly equal Gorgons, you can come up with some special tactics: for example, weaken (and if you're lucky, even paralyze!) them with Scorpions or hit them with a more powerful spell beforehand, since the Swamp has no native magic resistance:p. Actually, I'm not a big expert in this breeding ground of Harpies and Trolls. I would like to know in more detail (day by day, if possible) the order of actions (construction, hero development) for the first 2-3 weeks when playing Impossible difficulty on a random XL map and with a random hero (and not necessarily Shakti - as if she's the only one that exists:rolleyes:). Thank you in advance!

Ибу ибуди - хуйдао муди - Шаг за шагом можно достигнуть цели (китайская мудрость)

Кто к нам с пером придёт, тот от пера и погибнет!:smile51:

In reply to КостяN

BlackSerge

17 years ago

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КостяN;200421

Actually, I'm not a big expert in this Harpy and Trog nest. I would like to know in more detail (day by day, if possible) the order of actions (buildings, hero development) for the first 2-3 weeks when playing Impossible difficulty on a random XL map and with a random hero (and not necessarily Shakti - as if she's the only one that exists:rolleyes:). Thank you in advance!

It's hard to say for sure, because firstly, everyone plays the way they want, and secondly, 200% difficulty introduces adjustments; sometimes there's one thing, sometimes another.
I try to develop like this:
Hero with a bonus to gold.
Day 1: If I found enough gold, I get 2 heroes; if not, I don't build anything. If there's a lot of gold, I buy two heroes and build a Town Hall (again, if there are enough chests, I immediately build a Harpy nest).
Day 2: Town Hall, if it's already built, then a Harpy nest; if those are built, then an Eye; if there's enough gold for it, sometimes, if I've already captured an outer dwelling, I build a Portal of Summoning (a normal dwelling with Eyes or Medusas and higher).
Day 3: Eyes or a Stronghold, if something else isn't available.
Day 4: If I'm still unlucky, I either build a Treasury or a Castle, depending on my gold needs. If there's a chance to find something, I build a Castle; if not, I build a Treasury.
After that, it's completely unpredictable; I build whatever monsters I can afford and create the ideal setup. In the first week, I build a Town Hall, a Castle, and all the monster dwellings except for the Dragon lair; then, in the second week, I build a Capitol and a Dragon lair, and I'm good to go. This has worked for me only twice on Impossible difficulty.
Usually, I get Dragons by week 3, sometimes even by week 4. The good thing is that there's some flexibility, even if it's not much. If I can't build an Eye, upgraded Harpies can be a lifesaver.
If I have enough gold, I build an Armory on week 3, hoping to get some boots.
P.S. I wrote how I play; I'm not imposing it on anyone.

Added after 9 minutes

invisible;200419

BlackSerge, I sent you a message on ICQ, but please authorize me. When you have time, let me know, and we'll definitely play. A license isn't needed. The main thing is that you have version 3.2 or 4.0 (Platinum), or TE. P.S.: Shakti is the best :smile14:

I have version 3.0, which I bought on a disc about 8 years ago.
I'll authorize you when I get home; I don't even have ICQ right now

In reply to BlackSerge

Dirty_Player

17 years ago

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BlackSerge;200402

Shakti has several significant drawbacks in addition to his advantages:

Let's go through them point by point:

BlackSerge;200402

1. Upgrading Trogols slows down development by a day, depriving you of either 1 unit or growth, if you sacrifice the Stronghold.

Let it slow down, but no one said you need to build the entire Castle. Having Eyes and the Castle on week 1 is considered normal! We'll find troops in reserves and hives, maybe even in Pandoras :smile20:

BlackSerge;200402

2. If the map is large and the game is prolonged, in the final battle with his 300 elite Trogols, he is, to put it mildly, not as effective as Des or any hero with another specialization (Jedite, etc.).

If the game is prolonged, then the specialization of Thazar and Kreg usually decides the outcome, but not Das!

BlackSerge;200402

3. There are situations where you don't need that much attack power and you can simply collect resources without much effort, building the Castle (if there aren't that many Dwarves on the map, etc., the scenarios vary).

Attack power and Shakti are synonyms! :D But I can't even imagine a situation where attack power would be superfluous!

BlackSerge;200402

4. He can also end up in the Tower.

Of course, he can, but I don't think you should count on it...

BlackSerge;200402

5. +1 to the speed of the Minotaur in the same first week is not much worse than +1 to the speed of the Troglodite, and later it's even better. Everything, I think.

Is there a difference between speeding up 150 Trogols or 3 Minotaurs? And later, +1 to speed doesn't really matter, whether it's Shakti or Das. The main thing is to start well!

BlackSerge;200402

Well, and I just don't like him) consider it a personal dislike, I don't rule out that I will change my mind:smile04:

That happens. I don't like Shakti either for some reason... That's why I don't play as the Dungeon. But I understand that Shakti is objectively the strongest hero of the Dungeon!

BlackSerge;200402

Gunnar is also very good, but there is one "but": in battle, his specialization is absolutely useless.

It's important to approach the final battle with dignity, and for this, you need artifacts and creatures! Having such a fast hero as Gunnar, we get speed as a bonus, which allows us to run around the map faster than our opponent and snatch, for example, a Utopian from under his nose... And if, with approximately equal troops, your parameters are 10 higher than your opponent's, then it doesn't matter what your specialization is, even Navigation :p

BlackSerge;200402

You can build on day 1, find Eyes or Medusas, for example, I mean that if the game is prolonged, the additional + to population seriously tips the scales in your favor.

In a prolonged game, other factors usually decide the outcome (parameters, magic, control)