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Posts from Tactics for the Swamp (Fortress).

Tactics
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Offline Oelm
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#352
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I'd like to hear the opinions of experienced players:smile43:
Here's a situation from a game played with the Swamp faction, Shades of Darkness, during the first week of development:
By day 2-3, I have 3-4 heroes. And looking at the open territory, I see that Hydras are setting up in a Fortress, right on the edge. The question is: should I limit myself to this number of heroes and sacrifice the pace of development, or buy more heroes, risking not being able to upgrade them to level 7.
Let's assume there are factors indicating potential problems with this: slow roads, poor resource spawns, etc.
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#353
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Oelm;199396
I'd like to hear the opinion of experienced players:smile43:
Here's a situation from a game playing as the Swamp faction, Shades of Darkness, first week of development:
By day 2-3, I have 3-4 heroes. And from the open territory, I can see that Hydras are being placed in the Fortress, right at the limit. The question is: should I limit myself to this number of heroes and sacrifice the pace of development, or buy more heroes, risking not being able to reach level 7.
Let's assume there are factors indicating potential problems with this: slow roads, poor resource spawns, etc.
I'm not a strong player, but nevertheless :) My IMHO: in this example, Hydras are definitely not needed! Hydras are built on the first day mainly if you have enough money to buy troops on day 121, so you don't have to spend a couple of days doing nothing and thus maintain the pace of the game, which is very important! Or, if there are a lot of explored hives, then you can try to build Hydras to start shaking the trees from day 121.
But scouting is the most important thing!
Я ламер и играть не умею, нах!:smile33:
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Offline Forrest
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#354
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Oelm;199396
I'd like to hear the opinion of experienced players:smile43:
Here's a situation from a game with the Swamp Castle, SOD, first week of development:
By day 2-3, I have 3-4 heroes. And looking at the open territory, I see that Hydras are being built in the Fortress, right at the limit. The question is: should I limit myself to this number of heroes and sacrifice the pace of development, or buy more units, risking not being able to reach level 7.
Let's assume there are factors indicating potential problems with this: slow roads, poor resource spawns, etc.

In my opinion, it's impossible to assess on day 2-3 that Hydras are only being built in the Fortress! Based on what parameters? The loot in chests and crypts is much better in terms of level, for example. You need to take heroes and break through to neighboring resource spawns. You can immediately buy and defeat a built Hydra (a maxed-out crypt and a 15th-level Gnomish Workings can be taken by a level 1 mage without mana and without any tricks).
In SOD, there's basically no one to fight with without Hydras. Hydras are definitely the way to go. 2 Hydras are already a force, but 6 Geese are not. It's too early to upgrade Cows. There's not enough gold. Lizards are useless without the "Wisdom" skill. Practice shows that if you don't build them on day 1, you won't build them on day 2 either (either you don't need them or you don't have the money)
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Offline invisible
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#355
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In SoD, there's basically no one to fight with if you don't have Hydras. Hydras are definitely a must-have. Two Hydras are already a force, but six Griffins aren't. You can't upgrade Cows early. There's not enough Vassals. Lizards are useless without the Wistan. Experience shows that if you don't build them on day 1, you won't build them on day 2 either (either you don't need them, or you don't have the resources).
Tol, you probably haven't played SoD in a while ;) Hydras aren't built as often on day 1 as they are in TE. And if you don't have Hives and Nurseries, what's the point of having them anyway? They'll come to rush you on week 2, and you'll only have 2 Hydras in your army, the map isn't explored, and the paths aren't cleared. And all this is because of those two weak units that you built with your last resources, trading away all your resources, and that you won't even be able to buy on day 121 (there's no bank in SoD :D). If you have the money, I agree that you need to build them. But if, as described in the situation, you don't even have enough money for heroes, then Hydras will be an unjustified luxury :)
In general, you can't convey the situation in words to determine one or another development option. You need a save file, otherwise we're arguing about nothing :)
Я ламер и играть не умею, нах!:smile33:
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Offline Oelm
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#356
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Let me explain the situation: it was a random map game, L-shaped map, I don't remember the template. The roads are slow, the respawn points are poor, and there are no good hiding spots. I took the smallest crypt from the treasure chests on the first day, and there's also a large Naga Bank available. On the 2nd day, I have 4 heroes. By scouting the area, I see that if I gather all the groups of creatures, chests, and resources, the Hydras will most likely appear in a fort somewhere around the 7th day. But I decided to go to my neighbors. I hired two more heroes. There are two paths: one to the Barbarian lands, and the other to the Dungeon. I push through both. At the top, I run into Liches guarding the black market. I can't go around them, and I've already gone too far. I don't go deeper because of the penalty. In the Dungeon, I run into a lot of air elementals, and I break through with losses. On the 6th (or 5th) day, I take a secondary town. But the Hydras don't appear! After the game, I looked at the map, and if I had limited myself to 3-4 heroes, I would have been able to break through to the area with trees on the 2nd week and get some Geese. Usually, I hire at least 5 heroes at the beginning, and it has always paid off, but here it seems that I would have been better off with 4. 2invisible: I think the attack power of Hydras is much higher than that of Vivs, and not only because you can take Gnomish Enclaves with just one Hydra. And if you don't buy them on the first day, you can use your old troops to earn some money, and then buy them on the 2nd day. It always worked. After all, Hydras are powerful against neutrals or in confined spaces
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Offline invisible
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#357
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2invisible: In my opinion, the attack power of Hydras is much higher than that of Vipers, and not only because you can use one Hydra to capture Gnomish Strongholds.
It depends on how many Vipers you have :).
And if you don't buy them on the first day, you can use your old troops to earn money and buy them on the second day. It always worked.
No one is arguing that Hydras are strong. The main thing is to have something to use them for!
Я ламер и играть не умею, нах!:smile33:
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Offline Dirty_Player
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#358
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invisible;199540
It depends on how many Vipers you have :).

No one is arguing that Hydras are strong. The main thing is to have something to use them for!
The main thing is what and against what :)
I think it's pointless to argue about whether Hydras or Vipers are better, because the difference is significant, but if you don't have enough money, IMO it's better to stick with Vipers, try to get a Hive on the second week, and you'll have a decent offensive stack!
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Offline Oelm
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#359
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I see that opinions are divided. :smile32:

2DirtyPlayer: Hydras are still cheap. If they are placed, they are bought out within a day at most. I think that delaying by a day will pay off.

The difference between building vivs in a Castle and hydras in a Fortress is only 2,500 + resources. That is, only three vivs can be bought.
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Offline invisible
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#360
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The difference between building Wyverns in a Castle and Hydras in a Fortress is only 2,500 + resources. That is, you can only buy three Wyverns with that amount.
The difference becomes more noticeable when you encounter an opponent on the second week, and you only have 2 Hydras, which can be easily killed by a Valkyrie (she might not even need a new wave of units).
Я ламер и играть не умею, нах!:smile33:
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Offline Forrest
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#361
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invisible;199450
Tol, you probably haven't played SOD in a while ;) Hydras aren't deployed on the first day as often as in TE.

Just trust me, Grey. In a few years of playing SOD, I haven't deployed a swamp once or twice. :)
And there's no more profitable investment than two hydras for the swamp.
Price/quality, considering the Tazar, is simply excellent.

Added 2 minutes ago
Dirty_Player;199546
In my opinion, it's better to stick with Vivas and try to take a Hive on the second week, and then you'll have a decent attacking stack!

Are 2 hydras + 4 Vivas worse than 6 Vivas? :)

Describe to me how to take a Fortress with 6 Vivas - I'll learn. Guards + Flies.
Or 2-3 Cannons.

By not deploying hydras, you're dooming yourself until the 3rd week to get something good.

Added 3 minutes ago
invisible;199715
The difference is more noticeable when you meet an opponent on the 2nd week, and you only have 2 hydras, which are easily killed by Valeska (she might not even need a new wave).

Let's clarify. "only 2 hydras" means 2 hydras, 4 Vivas, a group of Flies, Greyge, 8 Wasps + Lizards, Gnol. Upgrading the Flies allows the swamp to break through fortresses focused on ranged units on the second week, if they haven't outpaced you in tactics. And believe me, without ranged units, it will be very difficult to kill those "cripples."
Hands off the hydras! :smile19:

Added 6 minutes ago
invisible;199540
It depends on how many Vivas you have :).

The main thing is to have something to take with their help!

Well, if there's really nothing to take, then it's time to surrender, you've been generated on a stadium map :)
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Offline Oelm
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#362
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People might not believe it, but I also almost always managed to get Hydras when I set that goal. Especially on the 2CM3 difficulty. I wrote my post here about the exception. There, Hydras were recruited, but only when hiring three heroes.
In general, for the Swamp faction in Shades of Darkness, the outcome depends a lot on the starting troops. But! If you get 20 Archers, you can break the maximum Gnomish stronghold without a leveled-up stack on the first day (it would be interesting to try with a leveled-up stack, but I haven't tested it). + Medusa is a great building for the Swamp. The pre-maximum building can be broken by Tazar, level 4 and higher. With a leveled-up stack, I broke it with Vistan (found in the tavern) without losing any Vivs or Lizards. + If you capture a second castle and build a Market, you can then recruit Hydras on days 5-6 and use the purchased Hydra to earn money for a Citadel.
Thank you all for sharing your opinions.
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Offline Oelm
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#363
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And yet, with hydras in the fortress, Tazar loses to Valeska in the second week on neutral ground! :smile08:

For example, both heroes are level 7. Valeska has an experience lead, and experience in ranged attacks. Tazar has experience in armor and advanced ranged attacks.

Tazar's army: 30 units of lizards, 14 units of flies, 46 units of gnolls, 4 units of vipers, 8 units of basic basilisks, 2 hydras.
Valeska's army: 56 units of marksmen, 60 units of pikemen, 12 units of crusaders, 21 units of griffins, 12 units of centaurs.
No spellbooks.
Tazar, with his army, is in a situation similar to the Germans under Berlin.

P. S.
The attacking side is Valeska.
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Offline Forrest
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#364
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Oelm;200458
Forrest - a deceiver!

Forgive me, I wanted to trick you, but you turned out to be wiser. ;)

Another example. Valeska with 1 archer and Tazar with the Chaos Hydra completely destroys her. ;)
Everything I write is based on my real experience in online games.
You can come up with many examples out of thin air.
If you keep insulting me, I will add you to my ignore list.
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Offline Dirty_Player
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#367
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Oelm;200458

Moderated: OFF-TOPIC in the message

Forrest - a cheater!
If Hydras are built in a Fortress, then Tazar loses to Valesk on the second week on neutral ground! :smile08:
Tips:
1. Build Wyverns in the Castle if that's easier for you!
2. Don't play as Swamp!
3. Think for yourself!
4. Apologize to Tolyan!
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Offline Fireball
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#368
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Tazar's army: 30 Lizards, 14 Flies, 46 Gnolls, 4 Wyverns, 8 Simple Basilisks, 2 Hydras.
Valeska's army: 56 Marksmen, 60 Pikemen, 12 Crusaders, 28 Griffins, 12 Centaurs.
No artifacts.
It seems to me that this is not a very accurate example.
1. 30 Lizards – 18 from the Castle and 4 from each of the three native heroes. Not bad.
But 56 Marksmen – 27 from the Castle and 29(!) from Valeska and two other heroes. So, Valeska has 3 stacks and two more heroes with an average of 6 archers each – that's optimistic. We're talking about SoD here...
2. 14 Flies... Why not 16, even if the heroes didn't have any? Okay, they were given to other heroes for speed. But where did the 28 Griffins come from if there are only 21 from the Castle, and we assume the heroes don't have any?
3. Why do you think the Castle built one more building?

This is how Valeska's advantage gradually built up in the endgame. And if we talk about hidden advantages, it always seemed to me that the Swamp has more of them on average, although I may be wrong.

P.S. Hmm, and by building Griffins instead of Centaurs, are you over-preparing to always have time to build the Castle, even if you don't have archers at the start, which is a big disadvantage for the Castle?
In TT, I would only play for the fact that it always has 2 levels.
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