Posts from What skills should Necromancers take when facing Orcs on a very large map?

In my opinion, 3 Warlords is utopia :) .

I think so too.

The Fiery Lands will reduce Rage, of course, but when there are many troops in a stack, the effect will not be impressive.

Could you please elaborate on this point? After all, we are considering the Fiery Lands as a means of combating the Rage of the Stronghold and as a good complement to Readiness, and not as a means of inflicting damage. The number of Rage points in a stack does not depend on the number of units in it. Or am I missing something:eek:

The effect depends on the quantity, just like the amount of health in a unit. It doesn't depend on the number of rage points, but on the number of rage points removed. The manual states:

Lost_Rage_Points = 1100 * Absorbed_Damage / Unit_Health

Let's consider an example with a unit of 70 Executioners. The health of one Executioner (without modifiers) = 40. 40 * 70 = 2800 - the total health of the unit. This is a standard situation where the Barbarian has Blood Rage at an expert level, meaning 70% of the damage is absorbed. Our Necromancer is level 25. This is quite realistic and achievable. Therefore, the Earth elementals will deal 75 damage. 70% of this is absorbed, so the absorbed damage = 52 damage (approximately). Next, we plug this into the formula:
And this is with 70 Executioners, which is not the limit by the end of the game. Although, of course, everyone can decide for themselves how accurately I have matched the number of units, the hero's level (although, plus or minus a few damage units shouldn't make much difference), and whether this is a lot of rage points or not. :)

The amount lost depends on the number of units, just like the amount of health lost by a unit.

1100 * 52 / 2800 = 20 units of rage lost.

And that's even with 70 Executioners – which isn't the limit by the end of the game. Although, of course, everyone can decide for themselves how accurately I compared the number of troops, the hero's level (although, plus or minus a few damage units shouldn't make much difference), and whether that's a lot of rage units or not :)

But here, the point isn't how many rage points the Fire Fields will take away (even if it's only 1), but that they will reduce the rage to the developed Blood Wrath, and the attacking stack will deal 40% damage instead of 30%.

For those who don't know, I haven't had a computer for about a year now, so I'll express my opinion in theory. I haven't had any practical experience because I have nothing to play on. First of all, it's not worth investing in Darkness. The Orcs will primarily boost their defense against it, and your spells won't have any effect whatsoever (I know a player who lost completely to Orcs this way; he cast some general spells, and none of them worked on any unit). I think it would be good to upgrade Summoning. There's Phoenix and Heavenly Shield (or one of them, or maybe both if you get Utopia). But in any case, it's not worth playing a long game against Orcs; Summoning won't help much there.

You're discussing Necropolis against Stronghold, but Necropolis is a losing proposition against Stronghold because Necromancers are mages, and Stronghold has those little Goblin Shaman units that disrupt magic, and their "Strength against Magic" ability means no need for any Dark Shield! And if you fully develop the Ballista's defense and attack, no magic will help against the Orc! So, Orcs will always win on a large map, and this has been proven time and time again.

LordViRuS, but wouldn't you agree that if there's a "Silence" spell, the Orc will lose fewer troops than without it? And also, imagine how many Goblins you need to give a good chance that the magic won't work. So, I'd prefer to take "Silence" against Necropolis.

Hmm....
If you take a silencer, you won't be able to develop other stats properly, and you'll just waste a level. As for the goblins, as far as I understand, we're talking about a large map, and the Orc will have time to gather a large army, especially since goblins have the highest growth rate among all creatures. And do you think that 1,000 goblins at level 20 will be a problem for the Orc?

LordViRuS, Heh, imagine if their hero is level 1. Hmm... and what will happen to your goblins. Plus, they place them near cyclops and shamans. And? One good spell, or even a charm, and the goblins are done:p. Half of them will be wiped out. And... that's it, your goblin rush will end. And, if we're talking about a large map, level 20 is still a bit of an understatement; it's more likely that they'll crush you, and you'll be left with nothing. And even without your goblin rush!

Moreover, not only without a suppressor, but also with a damaged army, which is completely inappropriate for a large map. If the game were played on a small map, then it would be possible not to upgrade the suppressor and simply quickly defeat the Necromancer with Orcs before he even has time to build a level 3 Mage Guild! But on a large map, it is impossible to fight without a suppressor.

It seems like here they are discussing what skills a Necromancer should develop, not an Orc. I'm too lazy to scroll through the thread, but I guess the argument started about whether or not to take the "Darkness" skill. Something like, "We took Darkness, but the Orc, acting as a spy, used it and weakened it." My conclusion is this: it's worth developing, even if you're 100% sure the Orc will use it. Berserk and Subjugation will work regardless. Yes, Cyclops won't be subjugated, but Orcs aren't just strong because of one-eyed creatures. And you should definitely add a summoning skill (I think this has already been mentioned in the thread). Two "Darkness" skills won't be effective, that's obvious. Not to mention that the attacking potential of the enemy will be reduced due to the 3-6 levels invested in "Darkness" (because instead of it, you can take Luck/Leadership/Mechanics, any of these skills in the hands of an Orc is devastating). It's a good idea to invest in Readiness if the game is long enough; Battle Fury and Resistance are almost a must-have. A good combination can be achieved by using Stone Skin from the Defense skill tree and Mass Weakness from the Darkness skill tree.

Berserk and Subjugation are the only serious arguments a necromancer has in a battle against an orc (other spells are basically unnecessary). Magic Dampening will certainly help the orc, but it's not critical. Trying to reduce their rage is pointless. Cyclops might manage to attack twice, and centaurs, led by Haghesh, and all three of them will attack before the necromancer's first turn (those who don't believe can check my replay in the corresponding thread). And since at level 25, which we're talking about, the centaurs will have a +19 attack bonus and a +13 defense bonus, the battle might end right there. Therefore, to prevent this, the necromancer's build should be as follows: Skilled Dark Magic + Keen Mind (correspondingly, Education and Logistics). Don't rely on the strength of YOUR army, so there's no need to take Attack, Defense, Luck, etc. The orc will kill itself if it doesn't manage to kill you first. Therefore, it's also advisable to take Sorcery. I want to say that I have considerable experience in this kind of confrontation (I consider it the most interesting), and I play as both the necromancer and the orc, so I can talk about the statistics: If you do everything right, the necromancer's chances of winning are about 80%. However, if you try to bombard the orc with bones or, upon gaining your turn, start summoning phoenixes or casting mass curse spells, then... the chances DROP SHARPLY.

2_Player, that's exactly what you need to do against an Orc – take defense. Otherwise, without it, the Necromancer's entire army will fall after the first attack. And in general, it's better not to let the Orc quickly level up, but to try to attack faster:smile12:. Also, regarding magic, I want to say that darkness:smile34: (and maybe even light, if you have spells available) will be very helpful. It's a shame that Necromancers aren't very strong with houses...:smile05:

It's a pity that Necromancers aren't very strong with Chaos magic...

Yes, there's no point in using Chaos magic at all. And it doesn't really fit the Necromancer. Besides, it's not their main school of magic, so there's a risk of not finding the right spells.
In general, my idea of a good build against Orcs is: Defense, Education, Luck, Attack, Darkness. Although you can ignore Attack/Luck and take Sorcery instead. In battle, this would look like: troops in defense mode (with readiness), followed by Plague, Berserk, Dominate, etc.

You're saying some funny things; most likely, many people simply haven't played on a large map against the Orcs. For example, WitcheR-L: "Okay, you put a Berserker on a Cyclops (although few free units are available, and they usually try to keep them away). He'll destroy half the Goblins, giving all the troops Fury. But the Orc's army isn't just Cyclops; there are also Executioners (who move very far and attack strongly), Warmongers (almost impossible to break through with Fury), Wyverns (which devour Necromancer corpses, making them impossible to resurrect), and Centaurs (which destroy all ranged units). So, I don't think it's about any kind of 'blockade'; it's better to upgrade Luck, Leadership, Logistics, and Defense!" Major Whirlwind and Player: "Necromancers don't necessarily need to focus on Darkness to defeat the Orcs, because Necromancers aren't strong in either defense or attack, but there are many of them. It's better to take Summoning and Light (Mines will disrupt Fury, and Divine Retribution will do the rest). The only problem is the amount of mana, so upgrade Education and Sorcery. Whether Necromancers can win 80% of the time depends on the map and the opponent."

Major Vikhr and Player Nezhite don't necessarily need to develop Dark magic to defeat the Orcs, since the Undead are not strong in either defense or attack, but there are many of them, and it's better to take Summoning and Light.

I don't understand the logic.

Mines will disrupt Rage.

Mines are a terrible thing against Orcs. There are only wyverns and one archer (Cyclops don't count; they shoot poorly). But once the Orc reaches them, they become useless.

Divine Vengeance will do the rest.

No, unfortunately, it won't. Vengeance, note, only attacks one stack at a time. Not to mention that the spell itself is masochistic. You need to suffer losses for it to become effective. And the Orc will crush the Undead easily. Neither House nor Vengeance will help here.

Well, you'll put a Berserker on a Cyclops.

Why on a Cyclops? I'd rather control Executioners; consider one attacking stack already neutralized, and Orcish units rarely reach you (and if the Necromancer develops tactics, they definitely won't reach you). You can use Executioners to attack Centaurs or Cyclops. It's not very pleasant, though. And Shamans aren't that scary. Goblins are a separate matter, but still, the chance that they will deflect the spell is not very high.

You're saying funny things; most likely, many of you just haven't played on a large map against the Orc.

You shouldn't make such harsh and unfounded statements.