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Posts from Video cards of the *ATI* family (Just the facts)

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18 years ago
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Many people have such video cards. This section is dedicated specifically to them)
P/S-You know my opinion regarding video cards.
But I always respect the opinions of other people.

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I decided to start the same old "post-flight analysis"... with the ATI Radeon X1900XTX

When a new top-tier video card is born, any professional journalist wants to write an interesting introduction for the material dedicated to the new product. Analogies for the development of 3D graphics accelerators have been drawn with courier trains, aircraft turbines, and even falling into an abyss, but the pace of development shows no sign of stopping. The arms race, which all reviewers have already written about a dozen times over, continues, and there is no end in sight for the near future. Today's material will be dedicated to a new board that has two goals: "Become the most performant solution on the market for the next six months" and "Win the hearts of all hardcore gamers by showing all doubters exactly who the market leader is." But let's take everything in order.

First, let's travel back to the recent past. In late spring 2005, NVIDIA announced its new G70 chip and its new top-tier product based on it, the GeForce 7800GTX. This accelerator was truly interesting to both specialists and gamers, as 24 pipelines combined with an improved architecture provided a serious performance gain compared to the previous NVIDIA top solution, the GeForce 6800 Ultra. And if you consider that the ability of accelerators to work in SLI mode provided the power of 48 pipelines, it becomes completely clear that NVIDIA had taken a very firm position in the market and did not intend to move from it for the next six months.

But what was happening during this time with NVIDIA's competitor, ATI? They were gradually implementing a plan to regain their leadership position in the market, while simultaneously creating the R520 chip, which became known around the same time as NVIDIA's G70 chip. However, the release of the R520 chip was delayed by about six months, and it was presented to the public much later than its competitor, the G70; plus, the new chip had only 16 pixel pipelines. And what did ATI tell us then? That happiness is not in the number of pipelines, and that our 16 work much more efficiently than NVIDIA's 24, and generally, NVIDIA cards cannot do many things, and their anisotropic filtering is nonexistent. But what matters to the user? The user does not want compromises, and although the new ATI product beat the GeForce 7800GTX in some tests, it still had equal performance. At the same time, it was clear to many that any subsequent product from NVIDIA would resolve this rivalry in its favor—even a simple release of the NVIDIA GeForce 7800 Ultra with increased frequencies compared to the GeForce 7800GTX could easily push the R520-based ATI X1800 XT into the background.

Around the same time, rumors began to circulate about the upcoming release of the R580 chip, which, according to all market logic, was supposed to be simply an overclocked version of the R520 chip, and a product based on it bore the Radeon X1900 index. It was clear even to the uninitiated that the X1800 series would not differ much from the X1900, which confirmed the general theory of an overclocked 1800 XT version. It seems that even the marketers at NVIDIA believed this—and they miscalculated.

As it turns out, all this time ATI engineers were creating a product that followed R520 in architecture. They did it quietly, without hype or fueling rumors. And when it became clear that the release of the R520 would be delayed until the end of autumn (instead of early summer), they faded into its shadow entirely. Then they went and announced a new product for journalists immediately after the New Year holidays. A certain calculation or plan can be traced in all this, and if this plan succeeded, we will not see a counter-move from ATI's competitor, NVIDIA, for quite some time. Think about it yourself: if you see that your competitors only have a chip that works the same as one you already possess, and they have problems with it to boot, then you don't need to worry particularly or rush, but can simply rest peacefully on top of the mountain, feeling like the leader. Especially considering that the next product, which no one has even seen yet, promises to be merely a continuation of what was already created. Therefore, NVIDIA's marketing department did not push its engineers, did not prepare to fend off attacks from the competitor, but calmly observed the development of events and, it seems, overlooked a rather important moment.



The seemingly unremarkable ATI X1900 based on the R580 chip suddenly turned out to have 48 pixel pipelines inside a single chip plus the ability for boards based on it to work in CrossFire mode, which means the possibility of obtaining 96 pixel pipelines in the system. This is exactly twice as many as NVIDIA's top product, which, by the way, sells for the same money as presumably some Radeon X1900 series models. And if you consider that all of ATI's words regarding the X1800 series also apply to the X1900 series, it becomes clear that the ATI X1900 will have the ability to use branching in shaders without a drop in performance, excellent anisotropic filtering, and many other interesting features that look very attractive compared to the competitors.

Thus, ATI prepared a secret coup, which undoubtedly succeeded. In any case, at the time of writing this material, NVIDIA has not responded to the new ATI product with anything. Therefore, let us welcome the new leader in the world of gaming graphics accelerators—ATI. Let's get to know their brainchild more closely, and we will start with the technical specifications table:

As can be seen from the table, the new X1900 series consists of two video cards, or rather four, but we will talk about the remaining two later; let's just say that the first product not shown in the table is the Radeon X1900XTX CrossFire Edition, and the second is the Radeon X1900 AllInWonder. But let's return to the solutions displayed in the table. Both cards differ only in memory and GPU clock frequencies, while possessing 48 pixel pipelines and 8 vertex ones, 512 MB of memory with a 256-bit bus width and ViVo support. If you compare the new solutions with the previous series, you can notice that both the ATI Radeon X1900XT and the ATI Radeon X1800XT have absolutely identical starting prices; also, these products have an absolutely identical core frequency, and the memory frequency does not differ much. This does not mean that both of these video cards will be present on the market at one price; it's just that the ATI Radeon X1900XT came to replace its predecessor, which, in turn, is now simply obliged to become cheaper and gradually leave the market. The ATI Radeon X1900XTX, conversely, has no analogues among previously released products and therefore has even a new letter index designed to emphasize the special power of this accelerator. Perhaps now competitors, following good tradition, must release a product with an identical letter prefix but meaning the absolute opposite, something like a GeForce 7800 XTX with lowered frequencies... But we've digressed. The ATI Radeon X1900XTX costs $100 more than the same junior model, the ATI Radeon X1900XT, and has an increased GPU frequency of 25 MHz and a memory subsystem frequency increase of 100 MHz.

If you compare new ATI solutions with similar NVIDIA solutions, the win for the former is obvious. Now the NVIDIA GeForce 7800GTX doesn't have "a full" 24 pipelines, but only 24; the amount of local memory on the ATI Radeon X1900 is twice as much as on the NVIDIA GeForce 7800GTX, and functionally the X1900 series has a clear advantage—the ability to use anti-aliasing together with HDR effects alone proves this. We do not believe that the NVIDIA GeForce 7800GTX version with 512MB of memory gained wide distribution, as it often has a heavily inflated price, so we did not include it in the comparison. Now let's look at the internal structure of the R580 chip and try to understand what changed in it.
GPU (process)
R580 (90 nm)

_______
GPU Frequency, MHz
650
_______
Memory Frequency
775 (1550 DDR)
_______
Memory
512 MB GDDR3

Theory


First, let's look at the internal structure of R580's predecessor, the R520 chip




Look at it carefully and try to remember the location of the main modules, as the diagram below is very similar:



As can be seen, changes affected only the pixel pipeline blocks (they are marked in green). Now there are noticeably more of them, but as before, they are all managed by a multitasking sharing processor. The vertex pipeline blocks remained untouched, as did most other blocks. The general internal structure of the chip remained absolutely identical; changes affected only the internal content of the texture cache and z-buffer. It is also visible that pixel pipelines are divided into blocks of 4, and as before, such a chip structure allows disabling groups of four pipelines if they malfunction due to errors during the creation of a specific crystal. This means that in the near future, a fairly large number of R580-based products with different numbers of pixel pipelines may appear on the market from culled processors. Moreover, given the total number of pixel pipelines, it is absolutely clear that there could be quite a few options for the number of active blocks—for example, 44, 40, 36, 32, 28, 24 and so on. This same point could serve future attempts to unlock potentially working pipelines that were disabled for marketing reasons, as there will clearly be fewer products than options with active blocks. Overall, it can be said that the chip structure is quite successful. However, not everything is so simple. By increasing the mass of pixel pipelines to 48, ATI has most likely completely removed the narrow bottleneck from the pixel pipeline module—now the pixel pipelines will not hold back performance; the question is different—what will hold it back now? First and foremost, this is memory bandwidth, second—a possible lack of vertex pipeline power, as there are only 8 for 48, meaning 6 pixel pipelines per one vertex; on the other hand, vertex pipelines have had little influence on performance recently. And third, and perhaps the most significant limiting factor for graphics accelerator performance, is the central processor. If in a tech demo you can overload a frame with special effects while putting minimal load on the CPU, then in the case of real games things are slightly worse, because there's real physics and AI to calculate. Therefore, to feed such a monster as the Radeon X1900XTX with data, an ultra-powerful processor is needed, not to mention for the Radeon X1900XTX CrossFire. There is an opinion that none of the existing processors, including multi-core ones, will be enough for this type of accelerator. Of course, this is more than compensated for by enabling all possible levels of anti-aliasing with anisotropy, HDR and a resolution near 1600x1200, so the ATI Radeon X1900 series has a future, and it is bright. However, the generation of accelerators after R580 will have problems, because increasing the number of pixel pipelines is a path as finite and dead-end as simply increasing clock frequencies: someday a limit will be reached, and the number of pipelines will no longer reflect performance as radically as it does now.



The cooling systems of the ATI Radeon 1900XTX and ATI Radeon 1800XT do not differ at all, so they clearly don't deserve separate descriptions; however, a brief run-through won't hurt. The design of the cooling system itself raises no serious objections. The GPU core is cooled by a separate copper heatsink, through whose fins the main airflow passes. Memory modules are cooled by an aluminum heatsink via a layer of thermally conductive films. These thermally conductive films have been a subject of long-standing disputes and disagreements, but so far manufacturers haven't come up with anything better, which is a pity. Dividing the cooling system into two heatsinks is a very correct decision, because if it were one heatsink, even copper, the GPU could heat the memory modules through the same heatsink to the point where the memory modules' own heat output would simply be unnoticeable. The second objection to the cooling system is the poorly polished copper base for the GPU.




If this element were absolutely smooth, the heat exchange functions of this same heatsink could significantly improve, but alas. And the third objection is noise. Actually, it's not even an objection, but a statement of fact—the most powerful video cards are noisy, and they are very noisy. During a heavy load on the accelerator, air blows out of the vents like from a good hair dryer set to maximum temperature—obviously, not an industrial one.
CrossFire and AllInWonder

Modifications of boards from the X1900 series such as the ATI Radeon X1900XTX CrossFire and ATI Radeon X1900 All In Wonder barely fit into today's description. The first accelerator differs little from its non-pairing sibling, the ATI Radeon 1900XTX, yet it costs almost $100 more. This price is for the ability to pair two ATI Radeon X1900XTXs and obtain an unprecedented power of 96 pixel pipelines. The difference in the ATI Radeon X1900XTX Cross Fire lies in a special connector installed instead of one DVI connector, to which an additional splitter cable connecting the two boards is attached. By the way, the entire ATI Radeon X1900 series, as well as the X1800, has DVI outputs with support for connections required to achieve high resolutions on digital monitors and LCD panels.

As for the ATI Radeon X1900 All In Wonder, its differences from the ATI Radeon X1900XTX or ATI Radeon X1900 XT are quite noticeable. First of all, it has a reduced single-slot heatsink; second, frequencies that are lowered compared to the ATI Radeon X1900 XT; and third, excellent capabilities for processing TV and video signals.
Preliminary Conclusions

One could go on for a very long time talking about the innovations implemented in the ATI Radeon X1900 series, and we will have many more materials for this, but it's time to draw some kind of line. Judging by the description and sober logic, ATI's new product is a success. Like a bolt from the blue, the announcement of the ATI Radeon X1900XTX stunned all reviewers, especially considering that it was not expected since the ATI Radeon X1800 series had been announced not so long ago. Well, we shall see—perhaps NVIDIA will be able to pull a similar rabbit out of its hat, but tricks don't work for everyone and not always.

From the website http://www.ferra.ru
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18 years ago
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I was looking for a video card for my computer that has an AGP connector. I found the best one in the world: the **Palit Radeon X1950GT Super 512Mb AGP**. But I ran into a problem. It's not available anywhere for sale. And it was released in the fall of 2007. This is the only video card that can compete with powerful PCI-E video cards because: Here. Judging by all the parameters. Is it possible to order it from some store? Because here, they simply don't know about it and probably haven't even seen it.
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18 years ago
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Yes, WitcheR-L, that's certainly an interesting question. In Sunrise, there's only this one, more or less suitable option: 1) AGP 256Mb MSI ATI RX9550-TD256 TV DVI TV-out, DVI 8951. And even that might be gone by the time you read my message. But you know what, I'll give you the same advice I give everyone: sell the system unit as soon as possible. Otherwise, in about a year, it will be worth next to nothing. And I don't see any point in buying an expensive graphics card. Your RAM is also expensive because it's no longer manufactured. I don't even want to talk about the motherboard. Is it a *478*? I think so. Or an Athlon 2500+. *************************************************** You know, it would be much cheaper for you to replace the motherboard, get at least 1 GB of RAM, and buy a graphics card later. If you don't have enough money, get one with integrated video. Yesterday, I assembled a system unit on an Asus motherboard (P5SD2-VM). It's a micro motherboard, but it's not bad. It has DDR2-667 memory (2 slots). Integrated video + PCI-16e + HD audio!!! + 45 nm CPU + Intel Core 2 CPU ready... It costs 2000 rubles. And the memory... = 2xDIMM 1024Mb PC2-5400 (667Mhz) Kingston (2 GB) (1100 rubles!). I wouldn't advise getting stuck with expensive, outdated hardware. Always glad to help. Indigo
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18 years ago
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I have 845, a Pentium (P). My parents don't want to sponsor me for a new one. And I'm slowly starting to hint to them about getting a Book. Like, for university and stuff, plus my uncle goes to Japan (he's a sailor), maybe he can bring me one. Sorry for the off-topic.
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18 years ago
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WitcheR-L!)
You have a 845 chipset, and your socket is 478) So, it's either a Pentium or a Celeron, that's clear

As for your parents, uncle, and the book – that's all good.
But keep in mind that if you pay, for example, 50,000 rubles for a laptop, for the same money you can buy a desktop computer that is 1.5-2 times more powerful than a laptop.
I have a laptop (Dell-1700), and I use it for testing and data recovery. Basically, it's a low-quality device with a blurry screen. Because a *good* laptop costs between 100,000 and 150,000 rubles.
That's the situation. So, think about it.
Sorry for the off-topic.
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18 years ago
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Yes, that's good, but setting up a stationary computer where I'll be studying is basically impossible. And what are those books that cost 150,000? P.S. We should create a new topic or move this to a more appropriate section. Otherwise, we'll just end up spamming:D.
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18 years ago
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WitcheR-L, these laptops are made to order, they are not for us. But something like this: (But not made to order) Sony VGN-AR71ZRU Sony VGN-AR71ZRU: 17", 3.9kg, Intel Core 2 Duo 2500MHz, 4096 Mb DDR2-667MHz, 640 Gb SATA (5400rpm), DVD±RW (BluRay Read), nVidia GeForce Go 8600 GT, Bluetooth; Camera (1.3); Wi-Fi 802.11n 81550 rubles. And so on = with a screen up to 21.1 inches. Increased memory, HDD, etc. This doesn't threaten us. ******************************************* I'll continue: PCI-E 512Mb ATI Radeon X1900XT, ASUS EAX1900XT CrossFire HDTV, 2DVI GPU Manufacturer ATI Graphics processor Radeon X1900 XT Core frequencies 625 MHz Memory frequency 725 MHz Video memory size 512 MB Video memory type DDR3 Bus PCI E x16 Memory bus width 256 bits Pixel pipelines 48 RAMDAC 400 MHz Maximum resolution 2048x1536 Frequency at max. resolution 85 Hz DirectX 9.0 OpenGL 2.0 Cooling system Active/Passive Connectors: DVI 1 HDTV Yes SLI/CrossFire support Yes Physical characteristics: Package size 8.8 x 47.3 x 31.2 cm Weight (gross) 2.1 kg Link to the manufacturer's website www.asus.com.tw ***************************************** 512Mb PCI-E ATI Radeon 2900XT, ASUS EAH2900XT/HTVDI, 2DVI, DDR3, retail GPU Manufacturer ATI Graphics processor Radeon HD 2900 XT Core frequencies 750 MHz Memory frequency 1650 MHz Video memory size 512 MB Video memory type DDR3 Bus PCI E x16 Memory bus width 512 bits Pixel pipelines 16 RAMDAC 400 MHz Number of supported monitors 2 Maximum resolution 2560x1600 Frequency at max. resolution 60 Hz DirectX 10.0 OpenGL 2.0 Cooling system Active/Passive Connectors: DVI 2 S-Video 1
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18 years ago
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Yeah... laptops are impressive, for sure. But they're for people living in a different world:D. Well, what can I say, they're not very good:D:D
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18 years ago
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Hey guys, I recently bought a Radeon 4850 512mb. Do you think it's a decent graphics card?
18 years ago
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VICH_89, excellent choice! NVIDIA has been slightly lagging behind ATI lately, so today, the Radeon 48xx series video cards look very, very interesting, not to mention the dual-chip Radeon 48xx X2 versions. As for the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260/280, the press is already using phrases like "the worst NVIDIA video cards in the entire history of the California brand," and they believe that ATI could double its market share (from 20% to 40%).
In reply to Майор Вихрь
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18 years ago
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I don't think so. Yes, the 280 chip will lose to a pair of 9800X2, for example, but that's also a matter of money (we all remember the "crisis"), but time and overclocking will put everything in its place, so I think this chip will still show its potential by spring (although it's not a fact that the arms race will again turn into a cold war in a year or two, as it was last year).
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18 years ago
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The press is already featuring phrases about the NVIDIA GeForce GTX 260/280, such as "the worst NVIDIA graphics cards in the history of the California brand."
Why is that? The GTX260 performs better in tests, but the price is high. However, as already noted, this is temporary. I'm trying to understand: what is generally more powerful: GF9800GTX or HD4850? And how are the drivers for the new Radeon cards?
18 years ago
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Friends, no one doubts the power of the new GeForce cards. Yes, they are powerful. And I've already mentioned somewhere that AMD's new strategy doesn't involve releasing ultra-powerful, high-priced video cards (like NVIDIA does). They are taking the path of releasing inexpensive chips with an extremely high price/performance ratio, and then offering configurations that combine them in Crossfire or dual-chip options. Judging by preliminary tests, the Radeon 4870 X2 outperforms the GeForce GTX 280 by an average of 50%. However, I wouldn't take it at face value just yet; let's wait for the video cards to be released and then we can talk about who is better. However, I want to draw your attention to the fact that in the past, during the Radeon 3xxx and 2xxx era, AMD was not competitive in the high-end segment, and their top cards couldn't even come close to the 8800 Ultra, but now the situation is different, and AMD is already challenging the Californians' claim to the most powerful video card. You can roughly compare the performance of video cards like this:

Radeon 4850 ~ GeForce 9800 GTX
Radeon 4870 ~ GeForce GTX 260

But this doesn't mean that they produce almost the same fps in games. In some games, the Radions excel, in others, the Geforces do (and they excel quite a bit), and the Radeon 4870 struggles with resolutions higher than 1600x1200 (probably due to a lack of video memory) and cannot compete with the GTX 260.

By the way, NVIDIA's pricing policy also makes you think, because it's not for nothing that they started lowering prices on their chips a few days after the release. I suggest you take a look here. I based my message yesterday on this information.

P.S. I don't know about you, but I'm tired of NVIDIA's constant leadership. Not only is it simply uninteresting to read tests where the "green" cards are predictably in the lead, but they also inflate prices, albeit within reasonable limits. Now, for the first time in a long time, NVIDIA is facing fierce competition, everything will fall into place, and the average prices for top-end products will automatically decrease. We should be happy about this, not sad about the failures of NVIDIA, which some people love.

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