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If someone wants to learn how to play, they should do it on the standard version. This is normal, understandable, and obvious to me.
That makes sense, but it also needs to be ensured that this version is widespread enough so that rejecting the flawed version doesn't negatively impact the tournament participants. For example, I don't ban the buggy Necropolis in my Heroes II tournaments only because it would immediately eliminate half of the participants.
I probably don't understand something... But, in my opinion, a tournament with 5 strong pros who will share their strategies is much more interesting and useful for a beginner than playing with 50 other players who are at the same level, and with minimal effort...
But, in my opinion, it's more useful if 5 pros and 50 beginners play in a tournament, so that the beginners can learn from the pros' strategies. They already know everything themselves.
Because if a person wants to learn, they will. And you are trying to force as many people as possible to participate in the hope that something will come of it later.
There is experience in growing and developing. Both generally and personally.
shnurov_hl
18 years ago
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In my opinion, it would be more beneficial if 5 pros and 50 beginners played in the tournament, so the beginners could learn from watching the pros play. They already know everything themselves.
Well, you have some very strong players. Learn from them. Those who play as Equilibris will almost certainly not switch back, even for a single tournament. I don't know what kind of motivation would be needed. Although, I tried it here. I remembered about the infinite poison and managed to kill 150 thieves with a level 1 hero and an imp. I had a good laugh.
There is experience in growth. Both general and personal.
Excellent. As they say, may it continue.
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It's logical, but it also needs to be widespread enough so that rejecting a flawed version doesn't negatively impact the tournament participants.
By the way, let's not confuse things – a disc that needs to be found and bought is different from an archive downloaded from the internet.
Catch
18 years ago
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By the way, can I ask a question? Are there official tournaments for the Dungeon faction in the Equilibris map?
By the way, can I ask a question? Do they play on Dungeon in Equilibris in official tournaments?
Yes, of course.
SandroXXL
18 years ago
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Yesterday, I downloaded Equi, played it, and liked it. The mod is more convenient, the AI is better, and many bugs have been fixed. I don't think 3 MB is a significant issue for users with modems, as I myself downloaded it using GPRS.
The differences between the official and unofficial versions are so significant that the differences between the versions themselves are smaller. So why mix them? If shnurov_hl;182611
2ZYbr The point is not that Equilibris is "better" – it's a balanced (as much as possible in Heroes) version specifically for online play.
– then it's even more unclear why you need to switch to Equilibris in offline mode? Catch has already talked about this.
I can't assess the usefulness of certain Equilibris features for online play. But for offline, their positive side is not noticeable, and the concept of "balance" is almost meaningless for offline. The negative effect, however, is significant – the need to remember which version a particular feature works for, and how exactly it works. ZYbr has already spoken about newcomers. And, please, don't filter out newcomers based on the criterion of "they will only play a couple of maps" – they will all be filtered out. Including those who, under more friendly entry conditions, would have played, gotten hooked, become interested, learned, grown – and then they could themselves choose whether to switch to Equilibris or whether "the best is the enemy of the good."
The most significant advantages of Equilibris for offline are that the swamp slowdown has been removed, and the experience gained in a battle is displayed explicitly. Yes, that's useful. But I can't recall any other noticeable improvements, maybe I forgot something. I'll note one serious drawback – there's no attack by pressing Enter. This really hinders when selecting a field for a battle. The bugs that Equilibris fixes, according to Lu's description, are good. Only, I'm a slowpoke, I didn't even know about these bugs, I didn't encounter them or didn't notice them – well, they don't interfere in offline mode. And those that do interfere remain in Equilibris. At the same time, they added new errors, as if there weren't enough old ones: - does the enemy drink an immortality potion before the battle? Okay. But how many times, and from where? You attack, kill, the immortality effect triggers, you run away/lose. You attack again immediately, but the immortality effect is still active on him. And, moreover, his pockets were empty. That's annoying. - when selecting a field, mana is drained from the staff. Apparently, the value is not always updated when loading. - in battle, there is a counter-attack with a shot in response to magic. - the morale calculation in battle is buggy. There are other issues, but I'm too lazy to write, it's not interesting. shnurov_hl;182499
Well, you don't understand much. By the way, we strongly request that the new release also include the ability to write cheat applications and the checksum of the save file. Is that also unnecessary?
Yes, I don't understand much, and I don't hear answers. And now it's still unclear. There is a key question – will this information be available for reading to every player, or only to particularly important ones? Last time, the developer answered this question incorrectly – he put users in unequal starting conditions. Or, if that's the case, then state it directly in the documentation: the program was created by order of so-and-so and so-and-so, and it works exactly in their interests, as they understand them. The same applies to other, more abstract terms: The program has functionality hidden from the user, which is not needed for normal operation and is not an error or garbage. It consists of collecting certain information about the end-user's operating modes. This information can be used by third parties, and a well-intentioned user usually does not have this possibility. - Am I understanding this correctly? Because it already looks like a description of some kind of Trojan. It's time to write recommendations to run the new Equilibris only on a virtual machine, after backing up to an external drive. oxygen_hl;182707
Catch, the position is clear. Let's have races on broken-down cars. What? It's more accessible, closer to the people. ... Maybe you just don't know how to prepare it? ;)
They are. It's called "monoclass." And there, it doesn't matter if it's a Lada or a WRC, the main thing is that everyone is in the same cars, in equal conditions, and only skill decides the outcome. And it never happens that the judge races in the overall standings, but in a slightly different car, because it's "necessary for his position" :D - this is about the ability to prepare shnurov_hl;182738
Although I tried it here. I remembered about the infinite poison and killed, like, 150 thieves with a level 1 hero and an imp. I laughed.
I doubt there were no other conditions... How did you run away from the thieves, especially from two squads?
And whether the poison is infinite or not – that's a minor issue. There are countless battles in the fourth game, and the vast majority of them are present in Equilibris. Removing them would be a different conversation.
yasnikov
18 years ago
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Can I share my opinion? Although I haven't played in any Heroes 4 tournaments, it's precisely because I don't have "Warlords of the Ancient Races." However, I do have the original Heroes 4 in English, and I haven't bought any expansions and don't plan to, because I'm not that much of a fan. It's enough to download new maps from the internet. I would gladly play in some tournament... But what happens? I'm not allowed because the version is wrong. That's why "Equilibrium" is so good – it can be installed on any version of Heroes 4 in any language. So, who here is talking about newcomers? Or do you think that everyone has a licensed copy of "Warlords of the Ancient Races"? Believe me (although you may not), that's not the case. And in this respect, "Equilibrium" is a more accessible and widespread version, which would contribute more to popularizing and promoting Heroes 4. Note that I haven't said anything about balance, etc. I'm just refuting your insinuations about the greater popularity of "Warlords of the Ancient Races." And if we also remember the balance and gameplay fixes, then any arguments become completely pointless. In other words, just say directly that you are conservatives and don't like new things, and there's no need to come up with other excuses. That's my well-reasoned opinion.
Zybr
18 years ago
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1) Still, there aren't many players who only have the base version, and I think (although I might be wrong) that these are mainly fans of other installments. They don't particularly like the fourth game and seem to return to it occasionally for a short time, or something like that (maybe I didn't express it very clearly).
2) So, a person likes the fourth game and wants to play not against the AI, but against real people. He knows that the fourth game has two expansions, and therefore, through logical reasoning, he decides that it would be wiser to install the latest expansion. He comes to the portal, and they tell him: "Friend, we've been playing Equilibrium for a long time, it's a fan-made mod, but it significantly changes the balance. You need to download and install it on top of the game. Here are more changes to read." The poor guy opens the link and sees a long article about the changes. Well, of course, if the desire is very, very strong, he might install it and even study it, but as practice shows, usually a person asks to play a game specifically on the "Whirlwinds" because he just wants to play.
3) A tournament is, of course, an important event, but mainly for the organizer and for the players who are playing to win. Those who just want to play will simply sign up because they don't see any other way to compete at first. And then, under duress, they will install the mod, or they will be lucky and find an opponent who says: "Want to play? - No problem. What version do you have? - Whirlwinds, that's great, let's play on them." But then, why would a player who just wants to play need to install and learn something, essentially having to relearn the game?
4) Regarding learning and gaining experience, it's all great, but those who want to win are the ones who learn. They will install this Equilibrium without hesitation and go for glory. But not everyone is like that. Some just want to spend an evening playing their favorite game with a cup of tea or coffee. They don't need to install anything because they will find an opponent.
Somewhere I saw a great quote from Mugais, that he doesn't participate in tournaments because he doesn't want to measure himself by achievements, but he enjoys playing just for fun.
In principle, you can play just for fun even in a tournament, but on the condition that it doesn't become stressful.
P.S. This applies to online play.
In other words, just say directly that you are conservatives and don't like new things, and there's no need to come up with other excuses.
That's why I noticed you're not a conservative :D You can't even install the official add-on :) I'm tired of repeating myself. The add-on should be publicly available. That is, everyone should be able to play it, not just those who have been given a link to it online. In other words, as Undergrounder put it, we need "more user-friendly entry conditions." If you want more people to play Equi, don't force them to play it. That's the paradoxical logic. Tournaments will attract newcomers, and there's a chance they'll switch to Equi over time. If you don't let them in, they'll never play it.
oxygen_hl
18 years ago
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- the enemy drinks an immortality potion before battle? Ok. But how many times, and from where?
On Expert difficulty and above, AI heroes always have immortality applied. One. There can be no ambiguity or misunderstanding here. Or are we talking about realism? :D
The most significant pros for offline play in Equi are that the swamp lag is gone, and the XP per battle is shown explicitly. Yes, that's useful. But I can't recall any other notable perks, though I might have forgotten something.
At least the summon and necromancy menus. Well, that's not the point. The point is that people often play both online and offline. Now, doing this on two different versions is impossible—it creates a mess in your head. As for attracting players, Monsieur Shnurov noted correctly: back in the day, the entire ToH played on Equi. Nothing hindered the influx of new players; if anything, it helped.
It consists of collecting certain information about the end-user's operating modes. Third parties can use this information, while a conscientious user usually has no such possibility. - Do I understand this correctly?
No. Incorrect. The program doesn't send anything anywhere, so you can't slap a SpyWare label on it, no matter how you spin it.
They do. It's called "mono-class." And it doesn't matter if it's pennies or WRC, the main thing is everyone is in the same cars, under equal conditions, and skill is the only thing that decides.
The mass appeal is immediately obvious. I've never heard of such competitions, let alone witnessed them. It couldn't be more massive ;)
And it never happens that a judge competes in the general standings, but on a slightly different fuel, because it's "required by their position" - this is about knowing how to cook
Fascinating. When and in what tournament do our judges drive some other version of the game than the mere mortals?
2) Here's a person who liked HoMM 4, and they want to play with real people instead of computers. They know that HoMM 4 has two addons, and therefore, through logical reasoning, decide it's more reasonable to install the latest addon. They come to the portal and are told: "Friend, we've been playing on Equilibrist for a long time now; it's a fan mod, but it significantly changes the balance. You need to Download and install it over the game. Read the changes here." The poor guy opens the link and sees a long article about changes. Of course, if the desire is very, very high, they might install it and study it, but practice shows that usually, a person asks to host the game on Winds of War specifically because they just want to game.
A person bought Warcraft III and decided to play online with people. He entered battle.net, and right off the bat he's told: "Kid, download 150 MB, or we won't let you in at all, and the changelog looks like an encyclopedia." Yet it doesn't hinder the mass appeal.
4) Regarding learning and gaining experience, that's all wonderful, but those who want to win are the ones who learn.
For the benefit of the poor. Running a tournament on deliberately worse software for the sake of attracting those who just feel like riding a pony? A worthy endeavor, very promising.
Tournaments will hook a beginner, and there's a chance they'll switch to Equi over time
Ah, so it's implied that tournaments run on two versions simultaneously? Meaning, those who want to play in WoW do, and those who want to play in Equi can switch? I didn't quite catch where that was declared initially. And if not, where are they switching to? To hotseat with a buddy?
Added after 2 minutes
A bit about the balance of power - the balance of power in Winds of War is perfect.
Amazing. A man has arrived and explained everything at once. And here we were wondering why Dalai's team has been struggling with all this for five years... :D
Zybr
18 years ago
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I don't understand why having the option to use both versions, Whirlwinds and Equi, wouldn't be good for online play.
So, does that mean tournaments are held for both versions simultaneously? Meaning, those who want to play WoW can, and those who want to play Equilibrium can switch over? I didn't quite catch that it was declared initially. And if not, then where should they switch to? To Hotsite with a friend?
There are resources that play on Equilibrium, and there are those that play on Vortex. You want to move this resource to Equilibrium. But there are few players on Equilibrium, and it's unlikely that many will switch from League to here. However, Vortex players can realistically leave here. You can run tournaments on both simultaneously, but transferring all official tournaments to Equilibrium, especially the World Cup, is not possible. That's my opinion.
shnurov_hl
18 years ago
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I think I understand everything in general. And even if I manage to explain that, with the Equi mod, Whirlwind becomes an incomplete game, the opinion won't change.
People aren't ready to replace stale store-bought bread with homemade bread because "what if guests come, and they'll only have store-bought bread to offer?"
Well, each to their own. :)
You need to decide what determines seriousness: the organization, as in your previous post, or the "straightforwardness" of the version.
The game version is just one aspect of the organization.
There are resources that play on Equilibris, and there are those that play on Vortices. You want to move this resource to Equilibris. But there are few players on Equilibris, and it's unlikely that many will move here from the League. However, players from Vortices could realistically leave here. You can run tournaments on both, but moving all official tournaments to Equilibris, especially the World Cup, is not a good idea. That's my opinion.
No, it's not like that. There is a version that is accepted as the standard for playing in any inter-portal or world competitions. You can try yourself as an alternative and play on Vortices (or even on The Guild System) or accept the generally accepted scheme.
