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In reply to S-t-i-n-g
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18 years ago
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S-t-i-n-g;181350
Of course, Chaos is the strongest race in HoMM 4. And about something else that hasn't been discussed yet: the skills of the Rogue and the Lord. Don't you think that the Rogue's skill is much more useful? And if we compare magic, hypnosis, illusion/mirage, these are the only decent spells. Well, maybe also ice bolt. But can they compare to Chaos magic, like disintegration?

1) The Lord's skill is much more useful than scouting. 3 Titans per week is very strong, especially against Castle, and it will be easier to buy them back.

2) Let's compare magic. The Chaos faction has a very limited set of spells. There's almost no one to cast buffs on, and against direct damage, you can always find a way to defend. A Titan with accuracy will wipe out half of the Chaos army (they have two advantages: protection and growth). With teleportation, either Nagas or Titans will be sent to the Chaos faction's rear, and they will survive for 2-3 turns. Castle will have a hard time against Titans and Nagas. And who else does Chaos have? Ifrits and Nightmares. And both can be targeted with Berserk or Hypnosis against the Chaos faction or Castle.
Another advantage: Order has faster access to tactics compared to Chaos, which is an additional army buff.
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18 years ago
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Another advantage of Haven over Chaos is quick access to tactics, which provides additional army reinforcement.

Well, actually, Chaos also has quick access to tactics))) with the exception that Haven has two heroes to choose from: one of life and one of death... while Chaos only has one of death... but in principle, the difference is insignificant...

As for the confrontation between these two factions, I'll say that both are good in their own way... and you can win with either faction... Haven has very insidious magic, while Chaos has very destructive magic))) Haven has Titans, which effectively resist Chaos, but Chaos has Black Dragons, which resist everything :-D in general, everything is relative...))) the main thing is to correctly and effectively use the advantages of one faction and the disadvantages of the other to achieve victory)))
In reply to Ларс
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18 years ago
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L@R$$ON;181870
Well, Chaos also has quick access to tactics ))) with the exception that Order has two heroes to choose from: one of Life and one of Death... but Chaos only has one of Death... but in principle, the difference is insignificant...

As for the confrontation between these two factions, I'll say that both are good in their own way... and you can win with either faction... Order has very underhanded magic, and Chaos has very destructive magic ))) Order has Titans, which effectively resist Chaos, but Chaos has Black Dragons, which resist everything :-D in general, everything is relative... ))) the main thing is to correctly and effectively use the advantages of one faction and the disadvantages of the other to achieve victory )))

Much depends on the size of the map and the artifacts available to the two opposing sides. It can be noted that it is always much easier to develop with Order due to Djinns and some useful spells for the hero (for example, teleport). With Chaos, Black Dragons don't appear immediately, and it's not always possible to clear out neutrals without losses using Nightmares. The hero doesn't immediately become capable of destroying neutrals alone without an army. It's also bad that there is no hero with the Nobility skill in the Chaos castle to increase the growth of Black Dragons and other creatures. Considering that Order has such a hero, the Order army can be one and a half times larger than the Chaos army. At the same time, Djinns with the illusion of Titans are very effective. So, no matter how you look at it, Order has more chances in the fight against Chaos, which, of course, does not guarantee it victory. As I said, the size of the map, the location of the castles, and the artifacts can significantly affect the outcome of the battle.
In reply to Zybr
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18 years ago
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ZYbr;96628
I don’t remember either; in general, the spell itself doesn’t allow for resurrection; the body disappears as if after acid, but if the hero already has a potion, I don’t remember...


It is impossible to resurrect after disintegration. Therefore, this is a good way to kill a hero in one go. The body does not remain.

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Смерть попсы;99986
That’s exactly the point; the balance of power in Heroes 4 distinguishes it from other strategies, where there are clearly defined strong and weak factions. I prefer order – it’s easier to start with, and I like the 4th and 5th level magic of Order more.

I absolutely agree. The balance of power in Heroes 4 is the best of all. You can win with both Order and Chaos. It depends on the accuracy of the game and the skill of the opponents. It is always easier to develop with Order. That’s why I never play as Order. It’s not interesting. It’s always better to solve complex problems.
In reply to snaiper133
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17 years ago
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First of all, let's get this straight: which version of the game are we talking about? In Equilibria, it's unambiguous—Chaos is more powerful than Order, and there's nothing to be done about it. In the original version, I believe there was a balance, although some other players claim the opposite—that there is an imbalance in favor of Order. Let's figure it out.
1). Original (from the very first version to Vortices of War):
Order bets on "skillful" spells. Chaos players will have no countermeasures against Order's spells. Because if Chaos players take Life magic, they rid themselves of Hypnosis/Berserk/Forgetfulness, but have problems with Illusions/Accuracy/Blinding, and if they take Death magic—it's the other way around. Taking Order magic is very difficult for them, and then they'll still have to search for the specific "Dispel" spell... in short, if Chaos players manage to do this, their success will be completely deserved)))
Order has either no resistance at all to Chaos spells (mage-djinn, titans are 50/50), or they will have to sacrifice everything for resistances, but take golems-nagas-dragon golems. In this case, direct damage spells won't save the Chaos players, but they will have a lot of fun with Mass Misfortune; moreover, Chaos melee units are much stronger than their Order counterparts. In a word, Order will also lack resistance to Chaos spells. Unless the heroes have pumped magic resistance, but for that case, Chaos has the Black Dragon ;)
As a rule, the outcome of the entire battle depends on who moves first—the mage or the sorcerer. If the sorcerer moves, he casts Disintegration on the mage, the mage is wiped out, and then the mage's troops are cleared without any problems. If the mage moves, he casts Hypnosis on the sorcerer (if the sorcerer has magic resistance—then on the medusas or ifrits), and then all Chaos troops are wiped out by endless Titan illusions without any losses at all.
As for the game strategy for Chaos and Order—specifically strategy, not tactics—there is an equilibrium here. Chaos moves much faster—effectively, the movement can be three times greater if Order is lugging around hobbits (and a smart player will never discard hobbits). On the other hand, it is easier for Order to clear neutrals—Hypnosis is far more useful compared to direct damage spells, since computer armies are monstrous in number and negligible in intelligence. A significant bonus is also given due to the presence of the Lord—but to buy out all grown units, Order has to sweat hard (few people pump finances and mining mastery—it's better if the tactician or a second mage earns this experience). Chaos has enough money—monstrously long turns + loot gathered by thief-heroes.
Summary:
I believe that in the original version there is a balance between Chaos and Order in terms of both battle tactics and strategy. The only caveat: if everything is decided by the question of "who moves first," then a priest/GM of leadership plays a very important role. And it is still easier for Order to obtain a Life hero.
2). Considering the case with Equi. Order is heavily nerfed; most importantly, Hypnosis and Teleport require line of sight. Consequently, you can no longer kill Chaos players from the first turn. Blinding and Forgetfulness can only provide a delay; moreover, a Chaos player will almost certainly be protected from blindness (magic resistance, helmet of sight, shield of mind, lich class—obtaining one of these is definitely not a problem). With Chaos, it's the old story—we crush Order in one turn, long live Disintegration! The opponent will likely resort to "low-budget" spells like illusions and basic curses, and therefore, they have already lost by proxy. If both heroes—both Chaos and Order—are endowed with magic resistance, the battle unfolds slightly differently. Chaos mages easily reach vulnerable Order units "hidden" behind their comrades—djinns, mages, hobbits—with spells and brutally bash them with a tea kettle/disintegration/inferno. Order mages are left only to cast mass Forgetfulness (if the battle is not in a Chaos castle, this makes little sense) or Hypnosis on ifrits/nightmares. If the Chaos players don't stand around idling and quickly remove the hypnosis (and most likely they will, as by the finale Chaos usually has one more hero than Order—perhaps Dispel or Exorcism), then Order mages will get almost no effect—well, they delayed the advance a bit... well, they nipped one hero (but the mass Forgetfulness still wasn't removed). On the other hand, removing the death effect of several dozen djinns is definitely beyond the power of Order mages )))))
In the end, it turns out that the advantage lies with the army that has more heroes. Since Order will bring hobbits to repel the Black Dragon, they will have one fewer hero. If they don't bring hobbits, they will lose even more; you can't really fight with Titan illusions alone, and their own spells are too convoluted (no proper summoning, no universal buffs). Four Chaos mages against four Order mages—in Equi, Chaos will win in any case.
Since Chaos mainly runs with heroes rather than creatures—this means the movement increases further, resources become even more plentiful, and the heroes' experience also exceeds the experience available to Order. Lords can no longer balance the scales, and on the adventure map, the lead also tips in favor of Chaos.
Summary:
In Equi, there is a noticeable predominance of Chaos over Order. The only practical option for Order is to brutally drag out the game, for about three months, so that a bunch of creatures grown with Nobility minimize the damage from the sorcerers' spells. And on small maps—only Chaos! :smile13:
In reply to Тралоск
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17 years ago
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Since if the Chaos faction takes Life magic, they get rid of...

But where, I wonder, will the Chaos faction get Life magic from? In their Castle, they have Nature and Death magic. :)
Moreover, let's say they immediately get Exorcism. Where have you ever seen a Chaos faction hero using it to remove curses from their units? Considering that their army consists of either only Black Dragons or Black Dragons and Efreet/Nightmares (or maybe Goblins?).
The Order faction has no counter-spells against Chaos spells (Djinn mages, Titans are 50/50), or they will have to sacrifice everything for resistances and take Golems, Naga, and Dragon Golems.

I didn't quite understand that phrase...
Titans have Chaos Ward, meaning 50% protection from magic and +50% armor against Chaos creatures. The fact that they take 500 damage instead of 1000, in my opinion, indicates that they do have resistance...
But Naga, Dragon Golems, and mages with Djinns have no protection at all...
Moreover, Chaos melee units are much stronger than their Order counterparts.

Who said that? O_o Even with their mediocre combat stats, a Titan can still give Black Dragons a hard time thanks to Chaos Ward and the bonus. Naga is one of the best Tier 3 units (they're beasts in Equilibrum). As for Chaos, they have slow but high-HP Nightmares and strong attackers, but very fragile Efreet. I don't really see the point in talking about the others, as they're not needed in battle.
With Chaos, it's the same old story: we destroy Order in one turn, long live Disintegration! The opponent will definitely resort to "low-budget" spells like illusions and basic curses, so they've already lost.

But why? What curses are you going to cast? Teleport is much more effective, along with mass spell steal.
Order is severely weakened; the main thing is that Hypnosis and Teleport require line of sight.
Have you tried teleporting your own units? :) It's very effective to teleport Naga or Titans/Dragon Golems "behind the back" of the enemy mage or tactician with a Wraith.
Order mages are left with only one option: cast General Forgetfulness.

It's not in the latest version of Equilibrum. ;)
Four Chaos mages against four Order mages - in Equilibrum, Chaos will win in any case.
Again, why? :) A Life Tactician + a Priest + a couple of Order mages, and everything will be fine. :)
As a result, it turns out that the army with more heroes has the advantage. Since Order will bring Hobbits to fight the Black Dragons, they will have one less hero.

An ode to Hobbits! About 200 Hobbits against 1 Black Dragon: D, it might work. ;)
If they don't bring Hobbits, they'll lose even more; you can't really fight with just illusions against Titans, and their own spells are too complicated (no proper summoning, no universal buffs).

Then why do many people call Order magic the most versatile? It's a mystery... :rolleyes:
Since Chaos mainly uses heroes and not creatures, the turn time increases, there are even more resources, and the heroes' experience also exceeds the experience available to Order.

:D :D :D First, creatures don't gain experience. Second, it's the CREATURES that increase the turn time (besides pathfinding and artifacts)!


And finally
It's still easier for Order to get a Life hero.

Oh yes! You won't believe it... he's in the tavern!



And now, to summarize. Everything depends on the map and the player's skill. :)
Some people find it easier to play as Order, others as Chaos, but in essence, they are equally strong
In reply to Zybr
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17 years ago
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Firstly, creatures do NOT gain experience. Secondly, it is the CREATURES that increase the heroes' turn (in addition to pathfinding and artifacts)!
And what does this have to do with anything? I meant that Chaos runs around with ifrits + Black Dragons, fairly quickly abandoning the other creatures. Replacing, for example, medusas and orcs with two additional heroes. Doesn't this increase the speed of movement? A load off the wagon – the horse walks easier. And if the speed of movement increases, it means we will be able to defeat more neutral creatures. And if we defeat more neutral creatures, it means we will earn more experience. And for God's sake, tell me – where did you read such nonsense that "creatures gain experience"??? :eek:
I didn't quite understand the phrase...
Titans have the Amulet of Chaos, i.e., 50% protection from magic and +50% to armor against Chaos creatures. The fact that they receive not 1000 damage, but 500, in my opinion, indicates that resistance does exist...
But nagas, dragon-golems, and mages with djinns have no protection...
I'll explain: the protection of mechanical creatures and golems from direct damage spells is higher, and some curses do not work on them. Golems, unlike mages, will not die after the first potion. Nagas have more hit points than djinns – so they will be able to absorb more damage, i.e., to reduce damage from Chaos spells, you should take a naga. I suggest taking dragon-golems because they are mechanical – and the strategy I proposed focuses on mechanics and spell immunity. Of course, I myself fight only with Titans))) But as I said, the described strategy is flawed. And the classic one (mage-djin-titan)(golem-djin-titan) leads to greater damage from higher Chaos spells.
And where, I wonder, will the Chaos creature get life? In the castle, he has Nature and Death
Moreover, let's say he immediately gets Exorcism. Where have you seen a Chaos creature removing curses from its units? considering that his army consists either only of Black Dragons or Black Dragons and ifrits/nightmares.
He will remove hypnosis from ifrits/nightmares. And if there is a hero without a magic resistance skill in the squad, then it may be necessary to remove the spell from him as well. There are always two or more mages in Chaos armies, so one cast Exorcism will not paralyze the army. And in general, the calculation is for the first turn, and if the Order mages still move first and cast hypnosis, Chaos automatically becomes the defending side. Life magic can be obtained in a seminary/university, school of magic, university of magic, witch's hut, and found on an altar. This is a fairly wide range. I'm not suggesting taking a priest or knight into the Chaos army – if you decided that, then you misunderstood me again. I suggest studying Life magic as an auxiliary skill for one of the existing heroes. But if there is no Life magic, then there isn't, and you will have to be content with "Remove Curse."
Have you tried teleporting your own? It's extremely effective to throw a naga or titans/dragon-golems "over the shoulder" at an enemy mage or tactician with a Wraith.
I've tried it, of course. But teleporting enemy units, regardless of the line of sight, is an incomparable thing. Which is missing in the Equilibrum expansion. And teleporting Titans doesn't give much – enemy heroes will be under Zone of Control, you won't kill them with the first blow. One hit on an enemy tactician is great, but you also need a second. Besides, Titans shoot with accuracy from the edge of the map in general just as well as at close range, and the only reason to teleport them is to reach a blocked target. But as I noted, this target is not easy to defeat – most likely. There will be no one to finish it off – Black Dragons and wizards will deal with the Titans.
Oda oda, hobbits decide! something like...200 hobbits against 1 Black Dragon might work.
Two hundred hobbits with a Noble skill are not a problem. For me, the question is always – to take a priest of life or hobbits into the army. I usually take hobbits, and you don't have to throw rotten bananas at me. Because there is little use for a priest of Life – djinns from the Blessed faction are only good for Joy (and even then not necessarily – there is Grand Master of Leadership). For Titans, there is already accuracy, and everything else is not essential. Hand of God is good, but you don't always have time to develop it, it doesn't always drop in the guild of mages, and in my opinion, it's better to hit the Black Dragon with hobbits than to watch your heroes die, hoping for Hand of God.
But I agree that the strategy of using units of the first level is not the best.
Oh yes! You won't believe it....it's in the tavern!
Don't tease me ;) :D :D
In reply to Тралоск
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17 years ago
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But what does this have to do with anything? I meant that Chaos uses Imps + Chaos Devils, and quickly abandons other creatures. Replacing, for example, Medusas and Orcs with two additional heroes. Doesn't this increase movement speed? Less weight on the cart means the horse can move faster. And if movement speed increases, it means we can defeat more neutral creatures. And if we defeat more neutral creatures, it means we'll earn more experience. And for God's sake, tell me, where did you come up with this nonsense that "creatures gain experience"???

I agree with this :) Only it didn't follow from the first sentence.
Let me explain: the defense of mechanical creatures and golems against direct damage spells is higher, and some curses don't work on them. Golems, unlike wizards, won't die after the first spell. Nagas have more hit points than Djinns, which means they can absorb more damage, i.e., to reduce damage from Chaos spells, you should take Nagas. I suggest taking Dragon Golems because they are mechanical - and the strategy I proposed focuses on mechanics and spell immunity. Of course, I only fight with Titans myself))) But as I said, the described strategy is flawed. And the classic (wizard-djin-titan)(golem-djin-titan) is fraught with great damage from Chaos's higher-level spells.
Only golems and titans have magic resistance. There are no others. The immunity of mechanisms to mind control spells is not fatal; we only ignore confusion.
As for Life magic, what's the point of it anyway? It's better to choke them once with a strangler, or catch them with a cloud of confusion.

I didn't understand something about dispel... it only removes buffs... it won't remove hypnosis. But it can remove immolation from heroes without any problems.
I've tried it, of course. But teleporting enemy units regardless of the line of sight is an unparalleled thing. Which is missing in Equilibrum. And teleporting Titans doesn't give much benefit - enemy heroes will be under Zone of Protection, you won't kill them with the first hit. One hit on the enemy tactician is great, but you also need a second. Besides, with accuracy, Titans shoot from the edge of the map just as well as at close range, and the only reason to teleport them is to reach a blocked target. But as I noted, this target is not easy to reach - most likely. There will be no one to finish it off - Chaos Devils and wizards will take good care of the Titans.
Two Order heroes, one casts General Spell Steal, the second teleports the Titan into the enemy camp, and that's it :) even better with a Naga (in Equilibrum).
Two hundred Hobbits with a specialist in Nobility is not a problem. For me, the question is always - should I take a Priest of Life or Hobbits into the army. I usually take Hobbits, and you don't have to throw rotten bananas at me. Because there is little point in a Priest of Life - Djinns from the Blessed faction only benefit from Joy (and even that is not necessary - there is Grandmaster Leadership) and armor. There is already accuracy for Titans, and everything else is not essential. Hand of God is good, but you don't always have time to develop it, it doesn't always drop in the Guild of Mages, and in my opinion, it's better to hit Chaos Devils with Hobbits than to watch your heroes die, hoping for Hand of God.
But I agree that a strategy using units of the first level is not the best.
They will take down your Hobbits at the first more or less convenient opportunity. Moreover, you won't be fighting against 1 Chaos Devil, so you need a lot of them. And they slow down the turn very much. Life has Guardian Angel, General Joy, General Protection, and regeneration - aren't these useful spells? Especially Guardian Angel. Oh, and there's also resurrection (if the enemy doesn't have Dispel).
And wizards will be hitting Titans for a long time
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17 years ago
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Shnurov and I were discussing this not so long ago. And, in fact, the Dread Knight is better than the Titan. The Titan deals 1/2 damage from the starting position. To deal full damage, a hero's turn is required. Either Accuracy or Teleport is needed. For the Golem to deal full damage, a hero's turn is also required – Teleport. That is, for this mediocre, fourth-level unit to become useful, a hero's turn is needed (for both). And the Dread Knight has much better stats. Therefore, we should build it. Besides, if I remember correctly, it's easier to build them.
Two Order heroes, one steals charms from the General, the other teleports the Titan into the enemy's ranks, and that's it.
This tactic isn't quite right. You enter the final battle with Immortality potions, right? Let's say you have 5 heroes, Titans, and Nagas. So, how many Immortality potions can you steal? That's right – 2. And the rest will remain intact on their owners. Well, and according to Murphy's Law, they will, of course, be removed from some runner and a weak mage. That's how a strong, fast Order hero's turn is wasted.
Life has an Angel of Light, General's Joy, the same General's Protection, and Regeneration – aren't these useful spells? Especially the Angel of Light. Oh, and there's also Resurrection (if the enemy doesn't have Dispel).
Life has Sanctuary. Period.
Everything else is good, but Sanctuary is much better than everything else available.
In reply to oxygen_hl
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17 years ago
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Life has Sleighs. Period.
Everything else is good, but sleighs are much better than anything else available.
Actually, yes. That's true. When choosing Order with a focus on melee combat (golems/nagas/titans/dragons), it will be incredibly useful. Chaos will have nothing left to do but focus on buffs – we can take them out in one turn, no problem. By the way, you gave me a very valuable idea! Thank you! I think I'll forget about hobbits for a while.
As for the magic of Life, what's the point of it anyway? It's better to cast a single powerful spell like Strangulation or catch them off guard with a Cloud of Confusion.
I didn't understand something about the Dispel spell... it only removes buffs... it won't remove hypnosis. But it can remove Immortality from heroes without any problems.
I mean that when Order heroes lose their Immortality, they won't be able to cast hypnosis anymore. This means that you can use Death magic instead of Life magic. Or use Dispel to deal with the illusions of titans. As for upgrading Life magic – the first level (second in Equilibrum) won't make the main upgrade path too difficult, but it's a very good backup. It's not a given that all five heroes in the army will get Magician. This means that there will always be potential victims for hypnosis. I think it's easier to have one amateur in the field of Life magic than five heroes with 100% immunity to magic.
In reply to Тралоск
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17 years ago
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Tralosk
Actually, yes. That's true. When choosing Haven and focusing on melee combat (golems, nagas, titans/dragons), it will be incredibly useful. Nothing will be left for Chaos but to focus on buffs – we can take them out in one turn, no problem. By the way, you gave me a very valuable idea! Thank you! Perhaps I'll forget about hobbits for a while.
You're welcome. I think you'll forget about them forever. ;)
It's not a given that all five heroes in the army will be able to get Magresist. This means that potential victims for hypnosis are ready. I think it's easier to have one amateur in the field of Life magic than five 100% immune to magic.
Against Haven, magic resistance is essential. As is against Chaos. Because otherwise, berserkers and your dragons and ifrits will burn their own.
In reply to oxygen_hl
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17 years ago
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The fact that resistance is essential is just as obvious to me as it is to you :)
However, when playing on a small map, where everything is decided within 20-40 days, it's quite difficult to max out five full resistance skills... If only we could choose the desired skill ourselves, it would be much better. As it is, you often get random skills, and sometimes you have to choose between skills that are completely useless for the current build :( The only skill that consistently appears is Combat, and there's no reason to complain about that. But instead of resistance, you often get melee or ranged skills, which are usually completely useless for a mage.
In reply to Тралоск
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17 years ago
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The tactic isn't quite right. You enter the final battle with Immortal items consumed, right? Let's say you have 5 heroes, Titans, and Nagas. So, how many Immortals can you steal? Correct – 2. And the rest will remain intact on their owners. Of course, according to Murphy's Law, they will be removed from some weak runner or pathetic mage. That's how a strong, fast Haven hero's turn is wasted.

Why 2? Based on the number of creatures? It seems like all beneficial effects are removed and randomly distributed to friendly units, and several buffs can be applied to one unit...
Isn't that right?
In reply to Zybr
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17 years ago
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I think the number two is here because our heroes already have immortality. And two identical blessings cannot be active on a unit at the same time. The number of free units is 2, so two immortality effects will be removed... something like that.
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17 years ago
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Tralosk speaks the truth. Exactly as much morale will be lost as can be. The rest will remain.
when everything is decided in 20-40 days, it's quite difficult to max out five full resists...
Why full? An advanced resist is already above 50%. And an expert resist exceeds 70%. I'm not counting cloaks, as they may not be available. But if they are, then it's even higher.

Now tell me, will you risk it and spend a turn with a powerful Haven mage, trying to cast hypnosis/berserk on a unit with a resist above 50%? I won't. It's better to focus on creation: teleport or something else. Or berserk on the same ifrits.

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