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Posts from Timy vs. Gur

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Offline Тими
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#18
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Dear Gur! There is such a thing as greed. A person acquires money not for any specific purpose, but for the sake of money itself. And no matter how much money he has, he needs more. He drains the Earth, searches for new lands, conquers neighbors, builds and improves everything from which he can make money. Sincerely, Timi.
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Offline Гур
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#19
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Dear Timi, I completely agree with you that there is such a thing as greed. Although your example is more reminiscent of avarice. However, this is not essential. You say that "a person earns money not for anything, but for the sake of the money itself." Then my question is: what does this person do with the money after he has earned it? Sincerely, Gur
"Пришел, увидел и пропил..."

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#20
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Dear Gur! It depends on the person. Romantics usually spend them (there aren't many of those now), while others save and increase them (like dragons guarding their gold). Sincerely, Timi.
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Offline Гур
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#21
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Dear Timi! EVERY person spends a portion of their money on acquiring certain goods. On food, housing, and so on... Do you agree with this? And another question: what do "others" "save and increase" their money for? Sincerely, Gur
"Пришел, увидел и пропил..."

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#22
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Dear Gur! Food, clothing, and shelter are basic necessities. Many people waste large sums of money that they or their ancestors have accumulated. But many invest in metals, stones, housing, stocks, bonds, and other investments so that their children can live without worries. If investments are made in production, then that production introduces its own modernizations, purchases equipment, which subsequently affects the product being produced, resulting in improvement + profit. Sincerely, Timi.
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Offline Гур
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#23
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Dear Timi, I don't deny that food, clothing, and shelter are necessities (although this can be debated). I only mentioned food and housing as evidence that money is a means to acquire certain benefits. Now, let's analyze your statement: "Many spend large sums of money, accumulated by them or their ancestors, in vain." Essentially, this is a repetition of my statement in message #15 (expressed in different words): "When we earn money, we earn it not for the money itself, but for the benefits that can be acquired with that money." In your case, the benefit takes a specific form – the form of idle pastime, the form of empty and subjectively unnecessary things. And in general, the wording "in vain" is incorrect, because what may seem useless to you may not be so to another person and, therefore, does not "make the world go round." Let's move on. You say: "But many invest money in metals, stones, housing, stocks, bonds, investments..." Again, this is essentially a repetition of my aforementioned statement from post #15. In this case, the benefit takes the form of metal, stones, and so on. Thus, you yourself say that a person spends their money on acquiring benefits. In other words, money is only a means, including a means of accumulating new funds to obtain a benefit, and therefore cannot be the fundamental motive for human actions. So, as you yourself put it, many people spend their money in vain, while others spend it on metals, etc. But both spend it on some kind of benefit. What, in your opinion, makes a person choose certain things (both spiritual and material) from the entire set of benefits? Sincerely, Gur
"Пришел, увидел и пропил..."

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#24
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Dear Gur!
In your opinion, what motivates a person to choose certain things (both spiritual and material) from the entire range of available options?
Desire, in the case of spiritual things. And the thirst for accumulation, in the case of material things. I'll explain: A person spends a lot of money to satisfy their spiritual needs. A person doesn't necessarily need to love what they do, but they will have peace of mind. With material wealth (metals, stones, housing, stocks, bonds, investments), a person buys them to increase the very money they invested. Sincerely, Timi.
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Offline Гур
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#25
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Dear Timi, Please explain your statement: a person doesn't need to love what they do, but they should have peace of mind. And a personal question: what are your spiritual needs? (Timi, no implications; I'm not demanding accuracy, just name a few interests that can be called your spiritual needs). Sincerely, Gur
"Пришел, увидел и пропил..."

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#26
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Dear Gur!
Please explain your statement: a person doesn't need to love what they do, but they should have peace of mind.
A person can do something they don't like (or don't want to do) in order to achieve spiritual satisfaction.
And a personal question: what are your spiritual needs? (Timmy, no offense; I'm not demanding accuracy, just name a few interests that can be called your spiritual needs).
First and foremost, I would include faith in the Almighty and prayers to Him as spiritual needs. Next is the need to forget (or at least try). Next is meditation and self-control. Next is entertainment. That's it, I think. Sincerely, Timmy.
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Offline Гур
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#27
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Dear Timi! Let's discuss: 1) Your explanation of your own statement from message #22. 2) The answer to a personal question. 1) In this case, the primary thing is peace; peace for this person is a good thing, and he is willing to perform actions that he doesn't like in order to achieve it ("doesn't like/doesn't want to"). Performing unpleasant actions is just a MEANS to achieve the good of "peace." These actions are performed because peace for this person belongs to the category of values; this person treats peace as something valuable. And the attitude towards something as valuable, based on the definition of love given in post 13 and confirmed by you in post 14, is love. Therefore, the reason for this person performing unpleasant actions is love for peace. 2) I am impressed by your spiritual needs (there is not a drop of irony here). For me, the main spiritual need is reading. The spiritual need "reading" was not mentioned among your spiritual needs. From this, we can conclude that our spiritual needs differ. Why do they differ? It all depends on our attitude towards them: I treat reading as something important (valuable) to me. Therefore, based on the definition of love, I love reading. In other words, my love for reading makes me pick up a book. The same applies to your spiritual needs (here I will omit the intermediate conclusions, as the course of the proof is not different from the previous one): You believe in God because you love God; You meditate because you love to meditate. And so on. Sincerely, Gur
"Пришел, увидел и пропил..."

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#28
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Dear Gur!
1) In this case, the primary thing is peace; peace for this person is a good thing, and they are willing to perform actions that they don't like in order to achieve it ("don't like/don't want to"). Performing unpleasant actions is merely a MEANS to achieve the good of "peace." These actions are performed because peace is a value for this person; this person treats peace as something valuable. And treating something as valuable, according to the definition of love given in post 13 and confirmed by you in post 14, is love. Therefore, the reason this person performs unpleasant actions is love for peace.
Peace is an intermediate stage between work. I have a counter-question (I'm not denying that there is love for something and someone): Why do people then strive not for what they love, but for where there is money? And many drive themselves to an early grave for the sake of "base metal." Why does everything then come down to money?
2) I am impressed by your spiritual needs (there is not a drop of irony here).
For me, the main spiritual need is reading. The spiritual need "reading" was not mentioned among your spiritual needs. From this, we can conclude that our spiritual needs differ.
Why do they differ?
It all depends on our attitude towards them:
I treat reading as something important (valuable) to me. Therefore, according to the definition of love, I love reading. In other words: my love for reading makes me pick up a book.
The same applies to your spiritual needs (here I will skip the intermediate conclusions, as the course of the proof is not different from the previous one):
You believe in God because you love God;
You meditate because you love to meditate.
And so on.
I believe in God because He exists (IMHO), and prayer helps to relax the nerves. I meditate to get rid of feelings (which make us do rash things) and to gather my thoughts. Sincerely, Timi.
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Offline Гур
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#29
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Dear Timi! "Rest is an intermediate stage between work." This phrase reveals a confusion of concepts. In this sentence, the word "rest" implies "absence of work," while in post #22, it refers to a state of mind (a state of tranquility). Confusing concepts is a violation of the laws of logic. Therefore, your statement from post #26 cannot be considered an argument. "Why do people strive not for what they love, but for where there is money? And many drive themselves to an early grave for the sake of 'base metal.' Why does everything come down to money?" Because, in order to get what we love, we need resources. If we didn't need anything (or if we decided to give up all comforts), we wouldn't need money. Regarding those who "drive themselves to an early grave for the sake of metal," again, this "base metal" is merely a MEANS. Money itself has no intrinsic value. I know only one person for whom money and accumulation were important – it's Gobsek. However, if we reflect on Balzac's character, we will understand that he treated money as something valuable to him. And an attitude towards something as valuable is love. Therefore, Gobsek LOVED MONEY. Before we analyze the second part of message #26, I will make a small digression. There is a concept called need. Need is the feeling of lacking something. Need is the foundation of human actions. Needs can be different, both physiological and social, and so on (it is not necessary to list all types of needs here). There is also another concept: need. A need is a need that has taken on a specific form depending on the individual's personality. Let me explain: a need is, for example, food; a need in this case is a specific product (for some, satisfying hunger will be a piece of lamb, for others – a dog). Needs are formed depending on our attitude towards something as valuable. That is, if someone feels a need for rest, then one person will develop a need, for example, to listen to music (and this person will take certain actions to listen to music: turn on the tape recorder, go to the store for a CD, buy a ticket to a concert of their favorite band), and the other will have a different need. But in any case, needs will be formed based on what is valuable to a person. If a person does not accept active sports as a form of relaxation, then, no matter how much money they have, they will never spend money on such leisure activities. Now let's analyze the second part of your message. You say: 1) "I believe in God because he exists." This is unarguable. I also exist, but you don't believe in me. 2) "Prayer helps to relax the nerves." Relaxing the nerves is a need. Prayer is a need (I relax my nerves by playing NHL). 3) "I meditate to get rid of feelings (which make us do rash things) and to gather my thoughts." In this case, getting rid of oppressive thoughts is a benefit for you. The absence of such thoughts is a value for you. Meditation is just a way to get rid of them. That is, the reason for meditation was your love for the state of "absence of feelings that make you do rash things." Sincerely, Gur
"Пришел, увидел и пропил..."

Хай Гурий Слесарь
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#30
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Dear Gur!
1) "I believe in God because he exists." This is not an argument. I also exist, but you don't believe in me.
I believe in you.
2) "Prayer helps to relax the nerves." Relaxing the nerves is a need. Prayer is a need (I relax my nerves by playing NHL).
By the term "relaxing the nerves," I meant striving for perfection.
3) "I meditate to get rid of feelings (which make us do rash things) and to gather my thoughts." In this case, getting rid of oppressive thoughts is a good thing for you. The absence of such thoughts is a value for you. Meditation is just a way to get rid of them. That is, the reason for meditation was your love for the state of "absence of feelings that make you do rash things."
The absence of feelings is a similar striving for perfection. Sincerely, Timi.
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Offline Гур
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#31
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Dear Timi, Regarding faith in God. It is quite possible that in this case, we used the verb "to believe" in different senses. However, this does not relate to the essence of our dispute. You say: "by the term 'relaxation of nerves,' I meant the pursuit of perfection." Fine. However, this absolutely changes nothing. Perfection is a need, and prayer and the subsequent relaxation of nerves are merely means of satisfying that need. Similarly: perfection is what you treat as valuable, and meditation and the absence of feelings are means of achieving what is valuable. I, however, do not treat perfection as valuable and therefore do not take any actions to improve myself. If I were to love self-improvement, I would make an effort to make myself more perfect. Sincerely, Gur
"Пришел, увидел и пропил..."

Хай Гурий Слесарь
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Offline Тими
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#32
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Dear Gur!
Regarding faith in God. It is quite possible that in this case, we used the verb "to believe" in different senses. However, this does not relate to the essence of our dispute. You say: "by the term 'relaxation of nerves,' I meant the pursuit of perfection." Fine. However, this absolutely changes nothing. Perfection is a need, and prayer and the subsequent relaxation of nerves are merely means of satisfying that need. Similarly: perfection is what you treat as valuable, and meditation and the absence of feelings are means of achieving the valuable. I, however, do not treat perfection as valuable and therefore do not take any actions to improve myself. If I were to love self-improvement, I would make an effort to make myself more perfect.
This is not a desire; it is a necessity. I am used to it. And I cannot give it up; I know the consequences. Sincerely, Timi.
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