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Posts from Which subject is more important: mathematics or language?
PLEASE, NO ONE OTHER THAN THE PARTICIPANTS SHOULD POST THEIR THOUGHTS HERE UNTIL THE DEBATE IS OVER! Topic: Which science is more important: mathematics or language? Loken is trying to prove that mathematics is more important. T@mar@ is trying to prove that language is more important. Please behave respectfully and with dignity, as this is just a game.
Умирает не тот, кто устал, а тот, кто остановился.
T@mar@
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Yeah... as a mathematician, a medal winner, and also a former philologist, I'm in shock :( !!! This will be unreal, but I'll definitely try... hmm... depending on the language, if I could give the opponent a French kiss, victory would be closer :D ...
P.S. Loken - shall we start?
Added 1 hour ago
P.S. I dedicate this debate to my grandmother - who was a wonderful teacher of Russian and Japanese languages...
Mathematics is a weapon...
Language is politics...
If you can negotiate, do you need a weapon?
Can development continue if you "stumble" over a language barrier? :rolleyes:
What will remain of mathematics without Latin? :rolleyes:
One cannot be a true mathematician without being a little bit of a poet. (Karl Weierstrass)
- Информация... -вступление...
Твой друг назвал меня принцессой, А ты сказал, скрывая страх: Таких принцесс в старинных пьесах, В конце, сжигали на кострах...
Loken
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Sure, our math professor has absolutely no creativity... But that's not what we're talking about.
So, what's more important: math or language? Who is more useful to the state: an analyst or a humanist? Let's take a look. Language barrier. Well, perhaps at the time of the Great Divine Retribution, it wasn't very easy for the inhabitants of the tower to communicate with each other, and then language really was a barrier. But in the 21st century, this is not a problem. Now, every third person knows at least English. An international language. Politicians and businessmen certainly do. For those who are... incapable, there are translators and, so to speak, translation experts. And the demand for them is decreasing over time. Why? Because of what was said above. And today, from childhood, children are influenced by... hmm... "Americanization." From screens, on the radio, from posters and billboards. The mathematical aspect requires a maximum of brainpower only to understand the percentage of discounts. And that's right. Why overload the customer with trigonometry? And due to the ever-improving and faster acquisition of the language by the country, the popularity of such humanities is steadily declining. While mathematics is always needed. Without it, there is no progress. Without it, a person's mind is hardly capable of building logical chains and planning anything beyond harvesting and chopping wood. Mathematics develops all the most important thought processes in a person. It teaches him to think, and not just absorb words, extracting them from memory at the right moment. So, we've dealt with the language barrier.
Now, let's talk about our native language. My opinion is this: after a child learns a language, acquires a certain number of words in his vocabulary, say, by the age of ten (a random number), there is no further language development, or it is negligible. Mostly, these are unknown "smart" words and terms. And that's it. In any case, I didn't feel any difference between what we studied in Russian in the 5th grade and what we studied in the 11th grade. But in high school, literature plays a major role. I think it can instill moral qualities in a teenager, a love for poetry or books, and so on, but again, there is no development of "humanitarian" centers. Few people can write decent poems or prose. And often, literature plays not the most important role here. A person may write simply wonderfully, but he is not obliged to love "War and Peace." It's a different story with the exact sciences. There is always something new. New ways to solve problems, new puzzles and tasks. As many options as you like. Although mathematics also has its own framework of rules. But it develops the very ability to reason and analyze, has a positive effect on intelligence and ingenuity. While literature mainly develops memory. And even if you don't reread (study?) the texts, the increase will be quite small.
They didn't teach you that brevity is the soul of wit... okay, I'll explain... sorry for being harsh in arguments, I can get carried away... ;) Loken;170455
but in the 21st century, it's not a problem. nowadays, every third person knows at least English.
As if I didn't know that... we're arguing about what's more important... and primarily!!! and you're telling me about the population as if they all inherently know all languages :D if you don't learn languages, then that's a problem (especially in our century)!!! many people, not having learned at least English in childhood, struggle and can't open up new horizons for themselves... first, they write letters in workbooks in school, and only then do they start adding apples and candies... mathematics is a science of proofs and theorems, if you don't know the language and can't speak, you won't be able to prove anything or answer anything...
In general... not knowing a language well, would you (sorry for being informal) compete here in eloquence and the art of discussion??? Loken;170455
mathematics develops all the most important thinking processes in a person. it teaches him to think, and not just absorb words, extracting them from memory at the right moment.
it teaches you to think??? crosswords also teach you to think... and don't books develop thinking and memory - that's what's most important... a large part of the information our brain absorbs comes from books and communication... Loken;170455
so we've dealt with the language barrier.
you won't get away with this set of incoherent phrases... where did you figure anything out? by adding knowledge of foreign languages to innate instincts? :D wow - cool... so on a genetic level, you can immediately study the program for 11 grades... :D Loken;170455
mostly, these are unknown "smart" words and terms. and that's it. in any case, I didn't feel any difference between what we studied in the fifth grade and what we studied in the eleventh.
"I didn't feel any difference." Honey, where were you? well, you can, of course, communicate with simple words and sentences all your life (even at the level of the 3rd grade) - yes, but many people, hearing your communication at the level of the 5th - 11th grade, won't take you seriously (here I mean some person, not you specifically)...
This is not terms - it's vocabulary!!!
"War and Peace" is my favorite book, which you love to use as an example? couldn't finish reading it? (just kidding)... hmm... there's a book for every reader... a person who doesn't read at all risks becoming uninteresting to society... Loken;170455
another thing is the exact sciences. there is always something new here. new ways of solving, new puzzles and problems.
There are always new books and eternal philosophical treatises...
"new ways of solving"??? is that - new unproven theorems??? axioms? the theory of relativity? yes, something has been proven relatively...
here - ... from my favorite...
If a theorem cannot be proven, it becomes an axiom. (Euclid)
Pure mathematics is a subject in which we do not know what we are talking about, and we do not know whether what we are saying is true. (Bertrand Russell)
I turn away with trembling horror from your wretched cursed functions that have no derivatives. (Charles Hermite)
mmmm... yummy, what an exact science... :D Loken;170455
it develops the very ability to reason and analyze
playing Heroes and chess also develops these abilities... Loken;170455
and if you don't reread (study?) the texts, the increase will be quite small..
And if you don't remember all the rules, subtleties, and theorems, you won't be able to come up with, solve, calculate, or create anything in the mathematical sciences... or do you think you can have a bad memory and just surround yourself with a bunch of mathematical tables?
by the way... where is the argumentation for my first post?
Mathematics is a weapon... Language is politics... If you can negotiate, do you need a weapon?
I'm not finished yet... ;)
P.S. By the way, I've been wanting to say... I noticed your passion for katanas - I respect it!!!... I've been doing it for a long time... it's very calming... I only got my own katana for my twentieth birthday, but now I don't part with it ;) respect...
- Информация... -вступление...
Твой друг назвал меня принцессой, А ты сказал, скрывая страх: Таких принцесс в старинных пьесах, В конце, сжигали на кострах...
Loken
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well, okay) another night... mm... "sharpening my writing skills":)
first, in school, they write letters in copybooks, and only then do they start adding apples and candies... mathematics is the science of proofs and theorems; if you don't know the language and can't speak, you won't be able to prove anything or answer anything...
this is what it's like standing at the blackboard) but you can mentally and intuitively feel and calculate something, even if you can't express it in words. and, by the way, they start by teaching letters from a primer, then numbers and words, and only then do they start writing squiggles in notebooks)
excuse me for using "you"
no problem, I'm not a pensioner) using "you" is quite natural.
does it teach you to think??? crosswords also teach you to think... and don't books develop thinking and memory - that's the main thing... most of the information our brain absorbs comes from books and communication...
crosswords don't teach you to think, they just make you rummage through your memory and subconscious in search of the right word... if you put the question that way, then perhaps Sudoku develops thinking.. books do provide the main information. but how do you apply it? then the "mathematical" centers start working. and then, you need to apply it to something.
so we've dealt with the language barrier.
you won't get away with this set of disjointed phrasesnot quite :D but I don't see any clarifications)
Sunshine, where have you been? well, you can, of course, communicate all your life with simple words and sentences (even at the level of 3rd grade) - yes, but many people, hearing your communication at the level of 5-11th grade, will not take you seriously (here I mean some personality, not you specifically)...
oh... don't exaggerate, please. the fact that people's interests vary with age does not necessarily mean that "the younger, the dumber." I was talking about the classes themselves. there was nothing new in them for 6 years. we wrote dictations, broke down words into their components, "studied orthography." but in all 6 years, almost no results were achieved in the teacher's miracle teaching from the students. and it's not surprising, year after year - the same "n, nn," "zhi-shi," commas, etc. that is, the program did not become more complex. and in the first grades, we also studied parts of speech, cases, conjugations, and so on, and that was new. that's why I said that at some point, language development comes to a standstill, while mathematics continues to open up new horizons, which means it develops a person. and at least provides him with new information.
"new ways to solve"??? are these new, unproven theorems??? axioms?
no, new ways to solve are previously unknown and untested methods for that person. a clear example is analytical, graphical, and recursive methods.. moreover, the problems that a person faces are sometimes very different, and he gains experience somewhere that he can use in other cases. while expressing thoughts through speech or writing is essentially always the same, and an alternative arises only when choosing the right definitions/rhymes, limited only by the poverty of the language. if there were no such restrictions, the flow of words would be uncontrollable and would require a minimum of effort - to remember how this or that phenomenon/object/quality, etc. is designated. ... fortunately, we're not talking about heroes and chess here. and the basis of all this is logic, which is... a branch of rational, mathematical thinking. so this is just a discussion.
Mathematics is a weapon... Language is politics... If you can negotiate, do you need a weapon?
a very eclectic statement. mathematics is logic and the search for rational solutions in order to be able to negotiate. language is scarier than a gun;) and to top it off, a low blow (although it would hurt me much more:)) - mathematics is the Mother of All Sciences^__^ it is cyclopean and all-encompassing. words, speech are an ordered series of symbols. symbols, as well as the systematization of something, are all mathematics. if a Dryopithecus saw two separate trees growing in parallel, not having speech, he could not name them in any way. well, maybe "ugauht," or something like that. and even then, it's not really a definition. rather, it's an "intuitive impulse." seeing two other trees, he might even forget about it... but the point is? the point is that he still understood that they were parallel, that they did not intersect, even if he did not have the words and definitions for it. that's how it is.
yes, I like katanas;) I am, after all, a samurai:) I also like staffs)
Added 11 minutes ago
They didn't teach you that brevity is the soul of wit... okay, I'll decipher... sorry for the sharpness, I get hot-headed in arguments...
they did, and how) it's just that sometimes demagoguery just begs to come out. especially - such an interesting topic, in which you can express a lot. ..and don't be shy, a lively and heated conversation is much more pleasant than a dry and unemotional one.
Well... Both of these sciences are worldviews... that's why I'm trying to prove to you which one is more paramount in importance... and you're just chewing the same old thing again... For a person of any nation, knowledge of their native language is extraordinarily important for preserving their spiritual foundations... Every word of a language, every form it takes, is the result of human thought and feeling, through which the nature of the country and the history of the people are reflected in the word. (K. Ushinsky)
Mathematics is a mercenary science... language is a system of communication and cognition of the world... In my opinion, there are two types of science - fundamental and applied (financial)... so, language belongs to the first, and mathematics to the second... All over the world, mathematical sciences have long been merely an industrial business. Everything is for sale. We don't discover anything new; we only slowly rediscover the old things established with the foundation of the world... there are no new molecules; they are only new to us, even though they were formed millennia ago... The development of mechanical engineering will lead to the obsolescence of labor—an era will come where it's impossible to find a place in this world without global knowledge of the maximum amount of information... New mathematical innovations and ideas are just a way for poor mathematicians to earn even a little bit, because there is no work for them... only accounting and management are mathematically important now, so they can chew over annual money reports... Long ago—realizing this—I left MIFI (Moscow Engineering Physics Institute) and took up a profession that is not subject to full automation by machines and is needed against the backdrop of general mechanization, since people want to see at least something beautiful in the dusty cities around them... And I don't think you can force a person to prove theorems if they don't want to. And our youth, in my opinion, don't want anything but money... and they know mathematics exclusively at the level of calculating their salary... (meaning about 60-70% of the population)
By weapons, I obviously meant numerous atomic and chemical motivations... "language is more dangerous than a pistol"—what does that expression about people who can't master it have to do with this!!! :confused: Loken;170739
and first, by the way, they are taught letters from a primer. then numbers and words. and only then do they start drawing scribbles in notebooks)
I studied in zero grade... that's between kindergarten and first... first they teach letters, and only then numbers...Loken;170739
crosswords teach you not to think, but only to dig through memory and the subconscious in search of the right word...
And the subconscious just appears, does it? Is it genetically predisposed again? The main thing is vocabulary!!! Loken;170739
if we put the question that way, then perhaps sudoku develops thinking...
Yeah right... entertainment for people unable to think spatially and reflect... this is an elementary task that only shows how few people in our country possess mathematics even at a minimal level... and that doesn't speak in favor of your reasoning... Loken;170739
the main information comes from books, yes. but how to apply it? this is where the "mathematical" centers start working.
Is everything in your brain synchronized like a public library—what "mathematical" centers!!!??? Do you start reasoning mathematically before answering someone? :D exactly, books-speech are the main information, you finally admitted it yourself, while mathematics was created (until the 17th century it consisted only of simple calculations and geometric figures)......Loken;170739
didn't work :D but I don't see any clarifications
Exactly!!! I'm waiting for specific reasoning from you regarding my specifically posed question... Loken;170739
sigh.. please don't hyperbolize. the fact that a person's interests vary according to age by no means implies a pattern of "the younger, the stupider".
No need for filth—I have never held such an opinion ("the younger, the stupider")... but with age, vocabulary increases thousands of times... and interest in specialized books and scientific treatises grows—does it not?Loken;170739
And it's not surprising, year after year - the same "n, nn", "zhi-shi", commas, etc.
My God! Is it possible that over your school years, from lower to upper grades, your essays didn't reach a new level of expressing your thoughts... and phrases didn't become more complex after studying complex sentence structures... Forgive my impertinence... question... with what medal did you graduate?Loken;170739
while mathematics continues to open all new horizons, and therefore develops the person. and at least provides them with new information.
How far gone everything is... can't you see that applied science deals with using already formed theories in organizational and engineering practice for the purpose of financial return... while many brilliant specialists remained beyond the horizon and see no new goals for themselves...Loken;170739
while the expression of thoughts through speech or writing is, in essence, always the same, and an alternative arises only when selecting the right definitions/rhymes, limited only by the poverty of language.
Poverty of language? Or poverty of thought? So 10 digits are cooler than billions of words? Loken;170739
without these frames - the flow of words would be uncontrollable and would require minimum effort - to remember how a certain phenomenon/object/quality/etc. is designated
If you can't find new sensations, then in order not to become a mathematical robot, it's time for you to drop your calculations and turn to developing your imagination... because after your words, I became afraid for your perception of the world... all objects and phenomena can be perceived in thousands of gradations and billions of colors... even asphalt can be described differently... one day it shimmers with reflections in puddles... another it's strewn with autumn leaves, a third it reddens from the glow of the sunset... my ideas and impressions even about it are essentially limitless...Loken;170739
logic, what is it.. a branch of rational, mathematical thinking.
Logic (Ancient Greek λογική "science of reasoning", "art of reasoning" from λόγος — "speech", "reasoning") is the science of forms, methods, and laws of intellectual cognitive activity, formalized using a logical language. Since this knowledge is obtained by reason, logic is also defined as the science of (correct) thinking. Since thinking is shaped in language in the form of reasoning, a special case of which are proof and refutation, logic is sometimes defined as the science of methods of reasoning or the science of methods of proofs and refutations. Logic as a science studies ways of achieving truth in the process of cognition by an indirect path, not from sensory experience, but from previously obtained knowledge; therefore, it can also be defined as the science of methods for obtaining derivative knowledge. I advise you to check the meaning of terminology more often :D Loken;170739
mathematics is logic, and the search for rational solutions in order to be able to reach an agreement.
Reach an agreement mathematically??? :D yes... probably possible... by means of monetary masses :D Loken;170739
and as a follow-up, a low blow - mathematics is the Mother of All Sciences, it is cyclopean and all-encompassing. words, speech - this is an ordered sequence of symbols. symbols, just like the systematization of anything - that's all mathematics.
"An ordered sequence of symbols"... did you fall from the moon? Go ahead, give me a mathematical formula according to which any word of your choice is composed...:D or a theorem of letters? A word is information shaped in linguistic form... In the 1993 Guinness Book of Records, "рентгеноэлектрокардиографического" was named the longest word in the Russian language; in the 2003 edition, it was "превысокомногорассмотрительствующий". :D "Speech is an ordered sequence of symbols"—you know, then I think it's an ordered sequence of SOUNDS!!!
Hmm... (at the end) what a terrible and meaningless example—I expected more from you... If people refuse to believe in the simplicity of mathematics, it is only because they do not understand all the complexity of life. (John von Neumann) P.S. "I am a samurai after all" and how is that expressed? How well can you handle a sword? In real life, not in children's simulator games :D ??? just curious ;)
- Информация... -вступление...
Твой друг назвал меня принцессой, А ты сказал, скрывая страх: Таких принцесс в старинных пьесах, В конце, сжигали на кострах...
Loken
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Heh. Attacking the opponent signifies poverty and an exhaustion of arguments. Isn't that so?
Again, one step at a time.
Both of these sciences are world-view based... that is why I am trying to prove to you which of them is more paramount in importance... and you are chewing the same old thing again... For a person of any nation, knowledge of their native language is extraordinarily important for preserving its spiritual foundations...
What am I "chewing"? I am proving the primacy of mathematics, the science of all sciences. To preserve spiritual foundations, it is not at all necessary to know which line to use when underlining adjectives. And what do you even mean by preserving spiritual foundations? Knowledge of classical literature? Kindness to one's neighbor? Aversion to adultery and gluttony?
The development of mechanical engineering will lead to the obsolescence of labor—an era will come where it is impossible to find a place for oneself in this world without global knowledge of the maximum amount of information... New mathematical innovations and ideas are merely a way for poor mathematicians to earn a little something because there is no work for them... only accounting and management are mathematically important now, just to chew over annual money reports...
Now that is just science-fiction nonsense. It will be harder to get a job as a loader, but mystical machines themselves are capable of nothing. They need maintenance; they cannot perform complex tasks, etc., etc. And if you compare the demand for accountants, economists, programmers, and other bureaucrats with the demand for Russian language teachers, you might be surprised by the total dominance of the former. Investments, loans, trading, turnover, contracts, business in general—that is mathematics. So...
And first, by the way, they teach letters from a primer. Then numbers.
I studied in zero grade... that's between kindergarten and first... first they teach letters, and only then numbers...
Oh yes, thank you so much for the correction.
And the subconscious just appears, right? Again, it's genetically laid down? The main thing is vocabulary!!!
Why are you shouting? Are you relying on the volume of your statements? Linguistic memory is vocabulary. And so what? That is exactly what I said. Crosswords don't train anything; they only play on a person's lexicon. But Sudoku forces one to perform calculations. No one said it was very difficult. And so what? But it specifically strains spatial thinking. "So that the digits don't match." And a crossword—what is that? That's for pensioners. In general, it's a pretty stupid argument—Sudoku vs. Crossword. Don't overthink it.
Is everything in your brain synchronized like in a public library—what "mathematical" centers!!!??? Before you answer anyone, do you start reasoning mathematically? Exactly, books-speech are the primary information, you finally admitted it yourself, while mathematics was created (until the 17th century it consisted only of simple calculations and geometric figures)......
I never thought that for a medal winner this would be a mystery. In your opinion, is the brain a homogeneous puddle of gray matter? Then you'd better read a middle-school biology textbook. Mathematics was created) and books, "they were always there"? Or did they arise from thin air? And speech too? Or maybe the gods sent them from heaven? Everything except natural sciences is artificially created in this world, baby. And to organize natural principles and patterns for oneself, mathematics was created—as a Rampart of rationalism. And to organize the sounds produced by the larynx and oral cavity, to use them to designate phenomena and objects, speech was created.
No need for filth—I have never held such an opinion ("the younger, the stupider")... but with age, vocabulary increases thousands of times... and interest in highly specialized books and scientific treatises grows—is it not so?
Thousands. No, rather, billions. Well-well. If you compare the first year of life to the last—undoubtedly. If you compare the eleventh to the last—by no means. This isn't even a matter of geometric progression. Rather "by" some amount of words. And hardly by a thousand. As for highly specialized terms from books, I mentioned that in my first post.
My God! Is it possible that during your school years, from the lower to the upper grades, your essays did not attain a new level of expression of your thoughts... and phrases did not become more complex after studying complex-structured sentences... Forgive my impertinence... a question... with what medal did you graduate?
Essays and phrases become more complex not from dull drilling of commas and studying the complex-subordinate type of sentences. They become more complex over time, mainly thanks to simple literature. And also, they depend on one's worldview and state of mind at a given moment in life. Orthography and punctuation are merely tools. Just as buying a bow saw doesn't make you a Moldovan foreman. I finished school without any medals and with a C in chemistry. But I was always quick-witted. I won Olympiads. My intellect probably comes from my father; he is a gold medalist. And so what? Anyone could get a medal by cramming and "grinding" their studies. A crude word, but very fitting for this context. And why? I look at my father, and I see—the medal gave him nothing. If I talk to him about something philosophical or reason through something, he cannot sustain the conversation. Because his mind is unsophisticated, and his gaze is as straight as a sergeant's. And he certainly doesn't earn millions. In principle, he has already outgrown the moment when he could brag about a medal. Partly because it gave him nothing in life. And no one was impressed by it. There you have it. I not only answered the question but also provided food for thought, huh?
How far gone everything is... do you really not see that applied science deals with the use of already formed theories in organizational and engineering practice for the purpose of financial return... while many brilliant specialists remained beyond the horizon and see no new goals for themselves...
Really? And is technical progress not driven by the use of well-known theories? Is it driven by humanities scholars? How do the Japanese program robots? How do programmers write programs? Everything here is built on mathematics.
Poverty of language? Or poverty of thought? Does that mean 10 digits are cooler than billions of words?
Parrying this is simple—is an infinite number of numbers worse than 33 letters? I already said—all of this is a toolkit. And poetry and prose, yes, are limited only by the poverty of language. A simple example is the painstaking search for the right word/rhyme. Language is rich, but not omnipotent.
If you cannot find new sensations, then in order not to become a mathematical robot, it's time for you to drop your calculations and turn to the development of imagination... because after your words I became afraid for your perception of the world... all objects and phenomena can be perceived in thousands of gradations and billions of colors... even asphalt can be described differently... one day it shimmers with reflections in puddles... another day it is strewn with autumn leaves, a third day it reddens from the glow of the sunset... my ideas and impressions even of it are essentially boundless...
Far from boundless. I repeat, everything is limited only by the poverty of language. It has a certain number of words. And they can be used in different ways. But there is not an infinite multitude of them. And I will take the advice not to become a robot into account when I write my new story, thank you. Logic.. What does it matter that you copied an article from Wikipedia? As well as someone's statements? Recently you spoke about the boundlessness of perceptions. Does that mean the definition should not exhaust your idea? Logic is rationalism. Rationalism is mathematics. This is an axiom. And people who know the language but stutter and painfully search for words in conversation—is this not a triumph of irrationality? They cannot construct a sentence, even though they know many words.
...Mathematics is by no means exhausted by formulas. For the umpteenth time, I draw your attention to the fact that it is, first and foremost, rationalism, and you, instead of posting emojis and haphazardly hyperbolizing, would be better off bringing actual arguments in your favor. This is expressed in the fact that I engage in the arts, adore Eastern culture, master the katana and the staff—that is, everything written in the profile and "about us."
Ugh... how rude... and here you are, lecturing me about basic things... I haven't learned anything new yet, but you certainly know how to rip quotes out of context and repeat my thoughts in different words. I am merely commenting on them... yes... you want to win this argument so badly that you're clearly starting to get agitated :) why shouldn't I smile at that... I didn't attack anyone; I was just being a bit ironic, since you aren't bringing up anything particularly original yourself, and as a hereditary chemist and mathematician, you won't surprise me with any mathematical tricks... note that I didn't say mathematics isn't needed at all (I wouldn't have entered this argument if I didn't know for sure that they are equally important)... that never happened... I am simply continuing to express the thought about the importance of human communication and language... because millions of years ago, when there was no mathematics, humanity achieved its development only thanks to the emergence of communities that overcame difficulties together... by learning how to communicate...Loken;171229
he. attacks on an opponent signify a poverty and exhaustion of the stock of arguments. Is that not so?
And this isn't an attack... ??? ... what is the point of bringing you arguments when you don't even fully understand the meaning of the old ones—interpreting them your own way and cutting my phrases in quotes... Loken;171229
to preserve spiritual foundations, it is not at all necessary to know which line to use for underlining adjectives.
You are still treating language (any language, for that matter) as a school curriculum—what nonsense... we are discussing general concepts... a massive system of communication... without which nothing in our human world would progress toward development... furthermore, there are only two numerical systems, but hundreds of languages and various scripts...Loken;171229
and what do you even mean by preserving spiritual foundations? knowledge of classical literature? kindness to one's neighbor? aversion to adultery and gluttony?
I mean the language of ancestors that you speak... which is thousands of years old and continues to develop to this day, as new words appear, styles of communication change, speech changes, generations pass, and this knowledge is passed from mouth to mouth (everything we know, all the experience of generations since the appearance of writing and speech) and it will always be so, while other technologies, having reached their maximum peak, will cease to exist... damn... it's as if you don't understand this yourself... what will you teach your children first... mathematics? Will you not wait for their first word? Will you remain indifferent to that event? Is that not what is important?[/B][/SIZE]Loken;171229
well, that's just sci-fi nonsense. it will be harder to get a job as a loader, but mystical machines themselves are capable of nothing. they need maintenance, they cannot perform complex work, etc., and so on.
The first industrial revolution was back in the 18th century... then thousands of people were replaced by machines and those who led uprisings were exterminated... over the last hundred years, many things have been mechanized and this process continues steadily, and even every year hundreds of people lose their jobs... that is all I meant... if I wanted to bring up sci-fi nonsense, I would cite some book written 60 years ago that unfortunately described mechanisms that have become commonplace today (and there are plenty of such books)...Loken;171229
and if you compare the demand for accountants, economists, programmers, and other bureaucrats with the demand for Russian language teachers, you might be surprised by the total dominance of the former. investments, loans, trading, turnover, contracts, business in general—that is mathematics. so...
I've never made such a comparison, let alone been surprised... it's just that the primary professions now are those related to mathematics and performing monotonous routine calculation work... there are no creative principles for these robot-like professions... you're talking about the Russian language again... but how in demand are foreign language specialists now... they are snapped up instantly for university preparation... and finding a decent job knowing only one native language is practically impossible... I am studying Latin, for example... no... business, yes—mathematics... but the foundations of business are contracts and negotiations, and then, if they have a successful outcome, come investments, etc.Loken;171229
why are you shouting? relying on the volume of your statements? and sudoku forces one to perform calculations. no one said it was very difficult. so what? but it specifically strains spatial thinking.
I never shout—I am a very calm person by nature... exclamation marks don't just signify a shout, but an emphasis of thought on the phrase... !!! The best thing I know for developing spatial thinking is origami lessons, if you like... creativity also develops it...Loken;171229
I never thought this would be a mystery to a medal winner. in your opinion, the brain is a homogeneous puddle of gray matter? then you'd better read a middle school biology textbook. mathematics was created) and books, "they were always there"? or did they arise from thin air? and speech too? or maybe the gods sent them from heaven? everything except natural sciences was created artificially in this world, baby. and to organize natural principles and patterns for oneself, mathematics was created—as a Rampart of rationalism. and to organize the sounds produced by the larynx and oral cavity, to use them to designate phenomena and objects, speech was created.
Among the things you say, there are no mysteries for me... speech is sounds that humanity learned to use for communication... so they didn't come from thin air... I am not your "baby," you could get punched in the eye for that... it's impolite of you in an argument... sigh... please build me a model of a world where there are no languages, but there is mathematics... would that even be life... on the contrary, one can imagine that... The first book in school will still be the primer...Loken;171229
essays and phrases become more complex not at all from mindless drilling of commas and studying complex sentence types. they become more complex over time, mainly thanks to simple literature. and also they depend on one's worldview and state of mind at the current moment of life. spelling, punctuation—merely a toolkit. just as buying a pruning saw doesn't make you a Moldovan foreman. I finished school without any medals and with a C in chemistry. but I was always quick-witted. I won Olympiads. perhaps my mind is from my father; he is a gold medalist. and so what? anyone could get a medal by cramming and "grinding" their studies. a crude word, but very fitting for this context. and why? I look at my father, and I see—the medal gave him nothing. if I talk to him about something philosophical, or reason about something, he cannot sustain the conversation. because his mind is unsophisticated, and his gaze is sergeant-straight. and he certainly doesn't earn millions.
Here we go again... we are not talking about spelling right now, but about language, and you brought up the school curriculum yourself... I never bothered myself with studying... a medal is a useless thing that will never be needed... and why such disrespect toward your father... you are far from being a philosopher... and happiness isn't in millions...Loken;171229
how do the Japanese program robots? how do programmers write programs? everything here is built on mathematics.
Oh... did I deny that... here we go again... I write and program normally, but I don't believe that in my life this is more important than communication with loved ones and cultural heritage—it is only a way to earn money... as if humanity couldn't survive without robots... all these numerous technologies only ruin the environment... Moscow—my hometown—is becoming more and more enclosed by a gray shield of chemicals every year... driving out of town, one can see the terrifying dome of the triumph of mechanical engineering... Loken;171229
parrying is simple as pie... and poetry and prose, yes, are limited only by the poverty of language. a simplest example—the painstaking search for the right word/rhyme. language is rich, but not omnipotent.
:smile07: you wrote something stupid, and I merely commented on it... as for the painstaking search... that can also be said about solving certain mathematical problems and calculations... Loken;171229
far from limitless. I repeat, everything is limited only by the poverty of language. there are a certain number of words in it. and they can be used in different ways. but they are not an infinite set. and I will take the advice not to become a robot when I write my new story, thanks.
It's not about an infinite set... nothing in the universe possesses this quality—everything is finite... it's stupid to consider language optional because of this fact... numbers also possess infinity, and periodicity exists only in words... keep writing... although if a person struggles to find a rhyme, then they shouldn't write at all, as the rhyme should be born naturally without mechanical selection...
Loken;171229
logic.. what does it matter that you copied an article from Wikipedia? as well as someone else's statements? recently you spoke of the boundlessness of perceptions. meaning the definition should not exhaust your idea? logic is rationalism. rationalism is mathematics. this is an axiom. and people who know a language but stutter and painfully search for words in conversation—is that not the triumph of irrationality? they cannot construct a sentence, although they know many words.
This isn't an article, it's a definition... where everything is clearly written... and my quotes are favorites and on topic... you wanted a lively argument yourself... but I think you don't analyze them at all... what a waste... terrible is the arguer who cannot imagine themselves on the other side of the barricades... and a smart person will never reproach another for citing sources... Unlike you, I cannot give definitions out of thin air when it contradicts the truth... everyone has their own perceptions... and logic too... I gave you logic from the perspective of language... rationalism is, I believe, the science of logical reasoning, right? that's what you meant in this sense... but reasonings can be not only mathematical, but also linguistic or even combined... well, try to prove a theorem without saying a word... people suffering from such diseases are beyond mockery... it's damage to the nervous system; they know sign languages... blind people have writing—because no human being can live in total absence of communication in any form... Loken;171229
...mathematics is not exhausted by formulas at all. for the same reason I draw your attention to the fact that this is, first and foremost, rationalism, and you, instead of putting smileys and haphazardly hyperbolizing, would be better off bringing real arguments in your favor. my "rationalism" is expressed in the fact that I engage in arts, adore Eastern culture, master the katana and staff—that is, everything written in the profile
If you don't see real arguments, it's only because you don't want to see anything but yourself and your ideas... I smiled a couple of times pointing out contradictions in your reasonings, and you flared up like fire immediately... not very samurai-like, those who keep their thoughts cold and calm... commenting slightly on your statements as in any ordinary discussion, I move to reasoning... you haven't even brought real arguments in your favor yet... "mastering the katana and staff"—I feel that when you master them, I will challenge you to a duel... I practiced with a pole for 5 years; my father taught nunchaku... it would also be interesting to see your katana...
P.S. I think out of the two of us, only I so far accept that both sciences are as important in our time as air... but you will never convince me of the exclusive superiority of mathematics, treating language as secondary to human development, especially with such meager examples... well, your arguments just don't impress me...
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T@mar@
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I personally am calm… and my writing has always been full of ellipses, exclamation marks, and questions… and I don’t think that in this discussion I am overstepping boundaries… or failing to provide specific examples on the subject matter… Here is my IMHO… And why not talk about samurai and weapons at the same time… to ease the tension and clear our minds a bit ;)
P.S. Let's continue our debate…
Loken
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eh-he-he. I've always found situations like this amusing. Whoever writes the last long and intelligent post, refuting the opponent's arguments, wins... Maybe it's for the best. After all, I've already forgotten what it's like. And the funniest thing is that it can go on forever, until someone gets bored. And if they back down, it just means the "enemy" simply overwhelmed them with stupid stubbornness... Oh, well.
Ugh... how rude...
sophistry
And this isn't an attack... ??? ... what's the point of giving you arguments when you don't fully understand the meaning of even old ones - interpreting them in your own way and breaking off my phrases in quotes...
a completely meaningless phrase; I could say the same thing and be right.
You're still taking language (any language) to mean what you learned in school - what nonsense... we're discussing a general concept... a huge system of communication... without which nothing in our human world would develop... besides, there are only two numerical systems, but hundreds of languages and different writing systems...
no, that's not true. since we've fallen into a chain of exaggerations and simplifications, why shouldn't I write that way too? and what's the point of the last sentence? are we comparing logic and linguistics - "which is cooler"? it seems like nonsense to me. I'm not talking about different notations for numbers... although now everyone is more or less switching to Arabic numerals.
I mean the language of your ancestors that you speak...
is language the spiritual foundation of a nation? or is language not just a tool for communication, thanks to which these foundations can be passed on? I can reason about the transience of being, but without understanding it, the words themselves won't mean much to me. and the "language of the ancestors" has undergone terrible metamorphoses, as you well know.
what will you teach your children first... math? won't you wait for their first word? won't you be indifferent to this event? isn't that what matters?
the point is not the word itself, but the very fact of a child saying their first word, right? but this is an incorrect example.
then thousands of people replaced machines, and the rebels who rose up were exterminated... in the last hundred years, many things have been mechanized, and this process is steadily continuing, and every year hundreds of people lose their jobs...
back then, it was a revolution and a breakthrough. given the current situation, I doubt it. at best, it's a gradual adoption of new technologies, like a printer that changes paper... and besides, there's more bureaucracy now than there was then. therefore, the demand for officials is beyond doubt. even if it's not the most creative and interesting job. I myself think that this kind of activity is terribly depressing and boring. but that doesn't diminish the harsh facts.
specialists in foreign languages... they are in high demand for preparing for universities...
exactly. there are few options. either a teacher/tutor, or a rare translator...
oh... build me a model of the world where there are no languages, but there is math... would that be life... but the opposite can be imagined... the first book in school will still be an alphabet book...
yes. many things in the world are interconnected. sometimes, one cannot exist without the other. but we're not here to prove the "exclusive correctness" of mathematics or language, but rather their greater importance.
and why this disrespect for your father... you're far from being a philosopher... and happiness is not in millions...
are you a philosopher? and besides, it's not disrespect, but a harsh truth of life. I don't like to be hypocritical. nor do I like to create idols, role models, or elder comrades. and if the fact that you have a medal doesn't matter to you, why did you mention it? to show off or what did you mean by that?
it's as if humanity wouldn't survive without robots... all these numerous technologies only harm the environment!
cars also harm the environment. and humanity could have survived without them, relying in the 21st century solely on horses. but would that have led to a good outcome? but it's better to strive forward, isn't it? there is much less good in life than bad. no one said that humanity will never destroy itself.
although if a person has trouble finding rhymes, then they shouldn't write, because a rhyme should come naturally without mechanical selection...
let each person decide for themselves, okay? and also, pay attention to Lermontov, Nekrasov, Mayakovsky, Byron... when writing poems, they all painstakingly selected rhymes. the only poet who managed to write "in one sitting" was, strangely enough, Pushkin. he sometimes managed to do that. but the mood itself or a single thought that you want to express will not write a poem for you. it's as if "it's the destiny of true masters - rhymes that flow from the pen onto the paper effortlessly," but... this is the tale of a dilettante who considers himself an excellent poet. hard work is needed everywhere. at least, if you want not to follow the spontaneously emerging associations and coincidences, but to express the ideological content as it is, without adapting to conventions.
this is not an article, but a definition...
sophistry ...in general, a wise man once said, "don't feed me with the poison of other people's statements." it's like food that someone else has already eaten. if you want, you can throw around phrases here and there, using a minimum of your own, without bothering to put your judgments into your own form, but that won't contribute to triumph. take note, please.
if you don't see real arguments...
sophistry I wasn't "inflamed," I just caught the tone of your not-so-kind and respectful tone, and parried in the same way, which, apparently, had some effect.
in my opinion, of us two, only I still believe that both sciences are as important in our time as air...
yes, yes. but you forget about one small detail. as I said, we're not here to discuss harmony and interaction, we're here to prove the greater importance of the item that came up in the lottery. therefore, you can leave the bile and some kind of pretense, pathetic mockery, and so on. it won't benefit you. you talk about the poverty of my arguments, but you don't provide any yourself. you only try to refute mine. by the way, I understand your attacks - you desperately want to win the argument, but it shouldn't turn into a feud. if you're interested, I feel the same way about you as before, not badly. because I leave all the nonsense that goes on in discussion topics when I leave them.
1 I grew out of the "small flexes" age, as you put it, a long time ago... in this response, you've basically only commented on my words and added nothing new—that's actually hurtful... I was waiting... in the previous post, while commenting on something with one sentence, I continued to comment, but this time you didn't even stoop to that... where is the respect for the opponent here... This isn't "stubbornness" at all; I simply truly believe that I am right on this matter. 2... demagoguery happens in front of a large audience, which we don't have... I am communicating with you and proving it to you...
3 You were the one who started bringing up these examples, and I was being ironic just so you would understand and stop using this fact, which is essentially useless...
4 I get the impression that you don't understand anything of what I'm trying to convey to you—it's terrible... although at your age, I also didn't want to understand or listen to others... 5 The metamorphoses of language did not affect the knowledge passed down to us... and I mentioned all these metamorphoses in detail... it's as if you're reading me every other line...
6 (a comment unrelated to the dispute) Which word is used matters a lot... if a child says "papa" first, wouldn't that be doubly pleasant for you?... by the way, why is the example incorrect? You just don't understand it yet... and I told you about the fact of pronunciation as well... why always comment on me with your own words but say the same thing... I don't get it...
7 If you study English properly in school... tutors are no longer needed... tutors are usually hired for knowledge of a second language or when applying to a linguistics department... why are there few paths... in our age of language development, any language can be learned via video, listening to discs, numerous textbooks, etc. Isn't that the development of language? Loken;171623
eh-he-heh. Such situations have always amused me. 1 whoever writes the last long and smart post refuting the opponent's reasoning is the winner.. 2 demagoguery 3 "which is cooler"? it seems to me that this smells of nonsense 4 is language the spiritual foundation of a nation? isn't language an instrument of communication, thanks to which these foundations can be transmitted? I can reason about the fragility of existence, but without understanding these words themselves, they would give me very little. 5 and the "language of ancestors" has undergone terrible metamorphoses, as you know yourself. 6 the essence is not the word as such, but the same fact of a child pronouncing their first word. Is that not so? But the example is incorrect. 7 exactly. few paths. either a teacher/tutor, or—rarely—a translator.. 8 yes. much in the world is interconnected. often one cannot exist without the other. but here we are proving not the "sole correctness" of mathematics or language, but greater significance.
8 Come on... it hasn't even been a year since you put my thought—which I've already said dozens of times—into your own words; so it finally sank in?... phew.... humanity could have easily continued to exist without mathematics... but without communication and language—no... isn't that significant? There would be fewer machines and technologies, and thank God for that...
9 I just asked how you studied to understand why you seemed to treat school so poorly... it makes a difference... when applying to many educational institutions... like MIT, for example...
10 this would lead to a more ecological outcome :)
11 and did I place restrictions on anyone's rights? I just said that poems are born on their own... and I know poets without you... epiphanies happen—when you write in one breath, almost without thinking, and that is always the most successful..."without fitting into conventions"—why use conventions when you need to see the poems, imagine them, and the words will come themselves... that's my same-opinion... Loken;171623
9 and if having a medal makes no difference to you, why mention it? To flex or something? Or what did you want to say by that?
10 cars also spoil the environment. And humanity could live without them, relying exclusively on horses in the 21st century. But would that lead to a good outcome? No one said that humanity would never destroy itself.
11 let every person decide for themselves, okay? And mood alone or a single thought you want to express won't write a poem for you. It seems "this is the lot of true masters—rhyme, falling from the pen to the paper effortlessly"... without fitting into conventions.
12 ...generally, one wise person once said—"do not feed me the poison of others' utterances." ..... without bothering to clothe your judgments in your own form, but this will not contribute to triumph in any way. Please take note.
12 The examples of statements specifically referred to the thoughts I tried to convey to you before and were based on my reasoning, and I looked into the collection of aphorisms later because there are very beautiful expressions there that I agree with... I don't need your "note"... I love aphorisms... what does triumph have to do with this—I'm not petty... I love a lively discussion... your attempt at "demagoguery" about trees killed me... I was in shock... it truly just takes up space + usually, people try to give the most significant examples at the end... and then there's this... Loken;171623
13 I wasn't "inflamed," I merely caught the spirit of your not-so-courteous and respectful tone, and parried in the same vein, which seems to have had some effect.
14 well yes, well yes. only you forget one tiiiiny detail. as I already said, we are not here to discuss harmony and interaction; we are here to prove specifically the greater significance of the item drawn from the lot machine.
15 you speak of the poverty of my arguments, while you yourself provide none. except for attempts to refute mine. by the way, I understand your attacks—you passionately desire to out-argue your opponent, but this should not turn into an internal strife. if you're interested, I feel about you just as before, quite well.
13 Ordinary reasoning with questions for the opponent... the tone is perfectly normal—discussing, correcting, and being slightly indignant at stupid examples—I have that right... + I don't see respect for the opponent, since you don't bother yourself with convincing examples at all... 14 In my opinion, it's actually you who finally grasped this little detail from my reasoning regarding your quotes... these were more like corrections to get you back on the right track... one must prove things, but first and foremost, one must think and reason about the opponent's proofs... without asking yourself "am I right?", you cannot achieve results in a discussion; for some reason, you believe that everything here is already proven even without you...
15 open your eyes and reread everything in your spare time... I already said you just see nothing... and don't want to see... I keep trying to get through to you, but you couldn't care less... I also haven't changed my attitude toward the opponent at all... "you passionately desire to out-argue"—no, funny, I'm just truly 100% sure that I'm right... what can you say about that... Human strength is largely unnecessary now... Consequently, a process of degradation is occurring... just look at how people drive these cars... many absolutely do not want to think about what they are doing... this naturally leads to accidents... weapons too—someone thought it up, calculated it, but didn't bother thinking about the consequences... new technologies destroy nature… and most of these innovations, sometimes completely unnecessary, are introduced by manufacturers for the purpose of their own enrichment... so in many ways, I do not approve of the same-time excessive "mathematical" progress...
Our physicists are no longer needed—their cuts are 5 times higher… geologists, biologists, that's yesterday's news… professions are dying out ...especially mathematical ones, when the ceiling is already open... but language will remain in its place... it is important regardless of all factors...
Mathematics is a weapon... Language is politics... If you know how to reach an agreement, do you need a weapon? I believe this is correct and will continue to defend it...
language is a massive system of communication... without which nothing in our human world would move toward development...
"I mean the language of ancestors that you speak... which is thousands of years old and continues to develop to this day, as new words appear, styles of communication change, speech, generations, and this knowledge is passed from mouth to mouth (everything we know, all the experience of generations since the appearance of writing and speech) and it will always be so, while other technologies, having reached their maximum peak, will cease to exist"... here I wanted to emphasize above all the transmission of experience, without which every generation would have to start everything from scratch and we would simply never have developed to the current level...
At your age, you also didn't want to understand anything or listen to others...
You seem to be reading me line by line...
It hasn't even been a year since you expressed my thought.
You don't even bother to provide convincing examples...
etc, etc.
and yet, nothing has changed, right? "I am engaging in a respectful discussion"? Okay, I'm tired. Now I understand what that famous hot-headedness is all about. It's about stubbornness... By the way, it's very convenient to call your opponent's arguments stupid and accuse them of not understanding the subject at hand when you yourself have nothing to say. It's a good method. It immediately discourages the opponent from wanting to continue an idiotic argument on the verge of absurdity. So, as a person "of my age" who understands little about anything, I will yield. Let me be "like that." So, is it easier for you now? Has the rage subsided? Then maybe we can continue the discussion? : Humanity will sooner or later completely ruin the Earth. But with progress, there is a chance to spread the destructive process to new territories on new planets. What does this have to do with the importance of language versus mathematics?
Our physicists are no longer needed – their numbers are being cut by a factor of five... geologists, biologists, that's yesterday's news... professions are dying out... especially mathematical ones, when the ceiling has already been reached...
I couldn't help but smile when I read that. On the contrary, all of this is the future. The future lies in science. In the exact sciences, darling. All new and new inventions and modifications of old ones. And the rejection of technological progress and innovation should not obscure the real facts.
And you, apparently, don't understand the very essence of mathematics, no matter how many times I explain it to you. Mathematics is not just a subject in school. It is a global doctrine that encompasses, perhaps, all areas of human activity. Trade, money, negotiations (yes, again, logic), architecture, education, industry, advertising, art, corporations, agencies, show business, militarism, healthcare – everywhere, everywhere there is a significant amount of mathematics. And I'm not talking about logarithms or trigonometry; I'm talking about mathematics in general – everywhere there are numbers, everywhere at least the simplest arithmetic skills are needed, everywhere everything is organized and arranged on shelves in alphabetical order, everywhere there are inconspicuous at first glance automatic calculations, and in many ways, logic is needed (yes, again, logic)! Without knowing the language, you will still survive. In the city, in the forest – it doesn't matter where. Just remember hermits, residents of tiny villages, guest workers, homeless people. A homeless person can sit all day at a pedestrian crossing, not saying a word, with an outstretched hat or glass, a hermit can live in the forest, although the lack of communication can be very, very difficult psychologically, a peasant can plow the land, talking only in gossip with his neighbor, a guest worker can work as a janitor, and communicate with gestures, receiving food and shelter... but none of them will survive without knowledge of basic mathematical principles. A hermit will not be able to calculate the amount of wood to be harvested for the winter, a guest worker and a homeless person will not know how much money they have and what they can buy with it, a villager will never build a barn without knowing numbers and concepts of elementary geometry, will never harvest a crop without knowing how many days have passed, how many months it takes for a particular crop to mature. Understand, speech itself was created through mathematical thinking. Ordering different sounds, composing them into a single alphabet instead of a chaotic set... the list of familiar words in itself is nothing. To talk, you need to understand which words are needed, take them from this list-memory, and arrange them in a certain order. Then we get a coherent phrase. Even individual words need to be composed of letters in the correct order. We have all this at the level of automatism, but nevertheless, that is how it is. Remember your first attempts to learn a foreign language. Mathematics is taught as a subject in educational institutions. This is a more complex form, serving only certain purposes. But globally, it encompasses all human thinking. Logic, rationalism (aha, and again), ingenuity, the ability to isolate what is needed, to distinguish one thing from another, to set a goal, to make a plan, and to follow it, and much, much more – this is mathematics. This is the very essence of the human mind. You may not know programming codes or Newton's binomial formula, but you will always be able to distinguish a sphere from a cube, you will always be able to add one to another and figure out what will come of it. Because all this is mathematics. That's it.
Первый, кто был забанен за Правду.
ewgeniy
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Re: [DISCUSSION] Which science is more important: mathematics or language?
you might as well compare a comet to a cup of Brazilian coffee:smile54: mathematics is the law by which everything operates, language is a way of transmitting thoughts and more... And in general, there is such a thing as the "language of mathematics." There are things that everyone should understand, even non-humanoids - if such beings exist. Mathematics is a universal language that humans, computers, and even aliens will understand - so mathematics is the language. And if that's the case, why argue?
Added 2 minutes later Agilist;170327
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You might as well compare a comet to a cup of Brazilian coffee:smile54: Mathematics is the law by which everything operates, and language is a way to transmit thoughts and more... And there is also such a thing as the "language of mathematics." There are things that everyone should understand, even non-humanoids – if they exist. Mathematics is a universal language that humans, computers, and even aliens will understand – so mathematics is the language. And if that's the case, why argue?
That's what I think too – both are important, and you can't get anywhere without language, including in mathematics... I've written this a hundred times, but you, dear Loken, keep bringing up some unimaginable examples and arguments, and I have to respond accordingly, because I can't accept that mathematics is more important, and you don't want to agree that despite the importance of mathematics in our society's progress, no one will get far without language...
- Информация... -вступление...
Твой друг назвал меня принцессой, А ты сказал, скрывая страх: Таких принцесс в старинных пьесах, В конце, сжигали на кострах...
ewgeniy
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Well, there's an important detail here:
you mean items from educational programs, not mathematics and language (for example, Russian).
Undoubtedly, language was built using mathematics, and mathematics was learned using language. There isn't a main part here; they are impossible without each other.
In the sense of a school program and a minimum, language education is certainly more important – in the real world, it provides much more than the ability to calculate differentials. But I also can't imagine a literate person who has no idea about mathematics – there must be some mathematical basis, which is what schools provide.
In short, in the end:
It's a pointless argument – one is impossible without the other.
And to top it off, mathematics is a language. In fact, you can reverse this phrase – how is a cipher decoded (like a new language)? Using mathematical research on the number of symbols, their combinations, etc.
Okay, I'm tired of typing. Peace out. Stop the argument.
