Discussion about Sylvan (Wood Elves). — Sylvan

Snowball

18 years ago

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2Psi
I wasn't talking about all races or all heroes. It's just that, for example, if a hero can break through a stack with a hundred Hydras in the early stages of week 2, that's not normal:)
As for the Cove faction, I believe that it doesn't have any obvious advantages and is generally well-balanced. That's all.

Psionic

18 years ago

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Yeah, and when is it a good time to play as Elves? :) In the early game, they'll get crushed by any rush. In the mid-game, they'll be overwhelmed by magic, only Wing will put up a fight. In the late game, the same Orcs or Knights, with training, and not just them, but with better upgrades and artifacts, due to their much faster start, will crush them without a chance. :) Harmony :) By the way, for the Warlock to start struggling and his magic of chaos to weaken, it needs to be a very late stage of the game, which will never happen in real games. Even in the fourth month of the game, his chaos is still very effective. Plus, Spell Research and the Warlock's collection become quite realistic, which is a very scary combination. If you take into account the mentor, BPD, and various cunning skills, it becomes somewhat uncomfortable even in such a timeframe... Added after 9 minutes

Snowball;161066

2Psi
I wasn't talking about all races or all heroes. I'm just saying that when, for example, a hero can break through a stack with a hundred Hydras in the beginning of the second week, that's not normal. :)
As for the Elves, I think the race doesn't have any obvious advantages and is generally well-balanced. That's all.

In terms of balance, I think Mages are the most balanced of all the races. Both in the early and late game. There aren't any major imbalances, except perhaps for a few strong minor artifacts for initiative in the late game. The Elves, on the other hand, are not well-balanced at all. If you're going to make a race with a slow start, weak in the beginning, but powerful in the late game, as it would be right for the Elves, then you need to give them something in the late game that will really make them feel their power. For example, increase the Elven luck by a factor of 4, so that it really becomes a lucky race, compared to other races. Or something else. And the Knights. For some reason, they look much stronger at any stage of the game, and the further you go, the worse it is for the Elves. For example, the much-praised Elven archers. As a race of archers, they should be very strong. But, a Knight comes along with empathy, inspiration, shooting, and retribution, under blessing, punishing, and acceleration, and his crossbowmen start shooting like a machine gun, becoming much faster, stronger, tougher, and also protected from arrows by armored units, compared to the much-praised Elven archers.

Snowball

18 years ago

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2Psi
I'll come back in the evening and provide a more detailed response to your post. I don't have time to write everything out right now.

Gunslinger

18 years ago

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in the early game, they will be easily defeated by any rush strategy.
in the mid-game, they will overwhelm with magic, only Wing will put up some resistance.
in the long game, the same Orcs or Knights, with training, and not just them, but with better upgrades and artifacts, due to their much faster start, will win without a chance.

Harmony

By the way, for the Warlock to become weak and his chaos magic to start to fail, it needs to be a very late stage of the game, which will never happen in real games.
Even in the fourth month of the game, his chaos is still very helpful.
Plus, Spell Research and Warlock's collection become quite realistic, which is very scary in combination.
If you take into account the mentor, BDP, and various cunning heroes, it becomes somewhat uncomfortable even in such a timeframe...

Added 9 minutes later
Quote:Message from Snowball
2Psi
I wasn't talking about all races or all heroes. I'm just saying that when, for example, a hero can break through a stack with a hundred Hydras in the beginning of the second week, that's not normal.
As for the Castle, I think that the race doesn't have any obvious advantages and is generally well-balanced. That's all.

In terms of balance, I probably like the Magic faction the most.
Both in the early and late game. There are no particular imbalances, except perhaps a few strong minor artifacts for initiative in the late game.

The Elves, on the other hand, are not well-balanced at all.
If you're going to make a race with a slow start, weak at the beginning, but powerful in the long game, as it should be for the Elves, then you need to give them something in the long game that will really make them feel their power.
For example, increase the Elven luck by 4 times, so that it really becomes a lucky race, compared to other races. Or something else.

And the same goes for the Knights. For some reason, they look much stronger at any stage of the game, and the further it goes, the worse it is for the Elf.
For example, the much-praised Elven archers. Ideally, as a race of archers, they should be very strong. But, a Knight comes with empathy, inspiration, shooting, and retribution, under blessing, punishing, and acceleration, and his crossbowmen start shooting like from a machine gun, becoming much faster, stronger, tougher, and also protected from arrows by spearmen, compared to the much-praised Elven archers.

Well, according to you, the Castle is "weak at all stages of the game," but in my experience, I haven't noticed that the Castle looks bad in long games against the Warlock. If the Wing hero and troops reach him, it's unlikely that the Warlock will have time to do anything serious with Chaos.
Regarding the Knight and Orc, I also don't think that in a fairly long game, they can 100% defeat the Castle. It would be great if the Castle gets Tom of the Void, then neither the Knight nor the Orc will have a chance, and even without this artifact, you can try playing as Anven (although I still prefer Wing), and the damage to the cursed will be very, very good (and if you also get Spell Research).
I've played long games against both the Elves and the Order, and I've won. By the way, Psionic, you play as the Castle, judging by the faction, and as I understand, you consider them to be underdogs, so explain why you still play as them?

In reply to Gunslinger

ValgallaWolf

18 years ago

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Does anyone have the Tome of Darkness for the Elves? Now, let me share my opinion. When it comes to artifacts, you can only really hope for them with the Elves and the Mages (and it's clear why). The strategy you plan before the game shouldn't be based on the idea that "Oh, it would be great if I got the Tome of Darkness." And what if you don't get it? So, you shouldn't rely on artifacts for the Elves; if you get it, great, if not, who cares. The Elves are more flexible in this regard because they can rely on artifacts and still have a decent chance. What to do with the Orcs is still unclear to me. And even more so with the Elves: you can't max out their resistance – they have an overwhelming resistance; they couldn't care less about our mega-resistance. Plus, the troops would then be weak. Arch-enemies? ... As long as I've been playing, Elves and Dwarves are the rarest neutral creatures. A super ability? ... They won't even get to use it. At least not in the Anniversary Edition. So, as sad as it is to admit, the Elves are not in the best position right now. But the harder the difficulties, the more interesting it is to overcome them, right?

P.S. My opinion about overpowered heroes. (I play more in duels, so I'll keep an eye on overpowered heroes on the duel server). In 1.3-1.4, Erin was crushing everyone; you just had to think a little. In 1.5, as one Austrian put it, "...Inferno bitch with 8 archdevils...." and she also had 80 churchills, 60 demonesses, and a bunch of other stuff, plus a ballista – you didn't have to think much anymore; you could make 10 mistakes and still win (she did have Ravenna as a counter, but it was impossible to win against the masters).
In 2.1, Helmar was summoned from the caves of Bjorngeird and he was destroying Dalek with one right-hand attack, and that was it. Now, the situation has more or less improved, but there is still an imbalance – why play as Razaz when you have Karl? Why play as Dirael when you have Ossir? What am I getting at? That there will always be one or two overpowered heroes! And there will be an overpowered race because new customers are needed! And how do you attract them most easily? That's right – by giving them what they want, namely easy victories. This is true for Hv and League, where there are masters who don't need easy victories, but the average player (at least all my friends) plays as Hafiz, Leto, Kaspar, Krag, Haggeh...
Besides, can you remember even one game with perfect balance? I can only remember Starcraft. But first, how old is it? And second, how many races are there? THREE! And we demand perfect balance from 8 races...

Well, I've gone off-topic. If I wrote something wrong, lower my rating; I won't be offended because this is my personal subjective opinion, and it doesn't have to match the general opinion.
But this is my opinion...

TonyMontana

18 years ago

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yes, I think everything has been explained in detail... no complaints:D

In reply to Gunslinger

Starhan

18 years ago

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shaddar;161529

By the way, Psionic, you play as Sylvan, judging by your faction, and you seem to consider them outsiders. Explain why you still play as them?

:)

What's not clear here? I like the race and want to play as them (and especially since you're a master, you're not looking for easy ways :)). But for some reason, it doesn't seem logical to the master.

Gunslinger

18 years ago

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2ValgallaWolf

The Tome of Darkness for the Elves? Now, let me share my opinion. You can only hope for artifacts with the Elves and Mages (and it's clear why). The strategy you devise before the game shouldn't be based on the idea that "Oh, it would be great if I got the Tome of Darkness." And what if you don't get it? So, you shouldn't rely on artifacts for the High Elves; if you get one, that's great, if not, who cares. In this regard, the Elves are more flexible because they can rely on artifacts and not just any artifact.

I have never relied on artifacts, I don't rely on them now, and I won't rely on them in the future; that is, as you said, "if you get one, that's great, if not, who cares."

A super ability?...They won't even reach that point...At least not in the Heroes of Might and Magic III.

You misunderstood; I was referring to a long-lasting stage of the game, so they will definitely reach it. And the Stronghold ability of the Elves really helps and makes the lack of attack power almost unnoticeable.

But the more difficult the challenges, the more interesting it is to overcome them, isn't it?

That's exactly why I play as them.

I don't believe (and I haven't lost much playing as them, so I'm so confident in this race) that the High Elves are as they are described here, and that's why I'm trying to prove the opposite, but, as I see, it won't work =(. I know all the shortcomings, but still...I try to be an optimist. If anyone thinks that I'm writing nonsense, that's fine, but this is just my opinion, take it as you like.

Sincerely, shaddar.

Psionic

18 years ago

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Yeah, I play because I like the race. :) Not because of its strength or weakness, I just like the race itself. Regarding the weakness at all stages of the game, I didn't quite express myself correctly. At the beginning of the game, they are the weakest, the start is slow, there are no engineers, you are unlikely to get machines, and the troops have very few hit points. In general, it's very easy to rush the Elves on small maps. That is, it's better not to play as Elves in the final stage on the first month on a map with average wealth. Yes, they become stronger later, and yes, Wingard in a long game for Warlocks is quite a headache, but: 1. Wingard is not the only hero in the race; other races somehow manage to play without relying on just one hero, and they are fine. 2. In a long game with a final stage at the end of the second month or later, there are races against which I don't even know what to do. For example, the Knights with their monk training, or the Orcs with their crazy start and their wild shield of fury. There is a small hope for the Ultimate mode, of course, and for luck with the Nemesis... :)

Snowball

18 years ago

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The starting position for the Sylvans is indeed not very strong (but it's still playable), and in short games, we are far from being the favorites, but that doesn't mean you shouldn't try to play. There is always a chance in any game and against any opponent, and it depends on various factors: the skill of the opponents, the neutral creatures on the map, the artifacts, the abilities, luck, morale, spells in the Guild of Mages, the effect of the week, objects on the map, and so on.
So, you need to try to find ways to win based on the actual situation in the game.

2Psi
Against the Heavens, you can come up with something:)
As an option:
1) Imps in the spellcasters.
2) Deadly Cold (with the perk). With the new Druids, all Chaos magic will work well:)
3) Fire spells (with perks for fire in Chaos magic).
4) Dark magic.
5) Blinding of unique units.
6) Lightning (with the perk).
7) The new archers are quite good against the Heavens with their enhanced arrow.
8) Artifacts for initiative.
9) Light magic (buffs and Vengeance - which can severely damage them, considering they are a damage-dealing stack).
10) Morale and luck.
The Heavens may have a better chance of winning in a long game, but that doesn't mean anything:)

Psionic

18 years ago

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generally speaking, it seems that playing as the Tribes of the East has become easier when facing Knights in a long game :)
and the Spell of Aggression is becoming a viable strategy, and these new ranged units, with their partial armor penetration in a long game, especially against Knights, is probably the most important skill :)
having Incas as sworn enemies is a dream :)

I've tried different Chaos magic spells before, burning armor, but it's not very effective, even with the increased spell power now.
Light magic is better, and Vengeance is now available there too, which is also powerful, especially in a rain of arrows :)

Blinding Unicorns is completely ineffective against trained Incas. First, you have to somehow reach them, and second, the chance of blinding such a large group is very small, even with Soldier's Luck.

Artifacts that boost initiative are, of course, only useful against Knights, I guess :)

In general, with the Tribes of the East, all hope lies in the Spell of Aggression, Vengeance, the new ranged units, and a rain of arrows with various tricky blinding spells, Berserk, Vengeance, Hive, Wall of Swords, etc. :)

Gunslinger

18 years ago

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The divine retribution of a Knight can accomplish a lot (+Seraphim). If, with the Commander's Aura, all units of the Sylvan faction have a chance to strike first, and especially if the Forest Archers deal significant damage, they won't be able to fire more than once or twice ((.
Tome of Darkness, powerful artifacts with initiative - are rare for the Sylvan faction, but, as mentioned above, the Sylvan faction is largely dependent on random chance.

Snowball

18 years ago

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2Psi
Okay, during a long game, you can put the entire lineup of Haven units on your enemy list:)(well, not all at once, but choose 3 of the most evil from the list).
I'm not arguing that Light is always necessary, but if Chaos is also present, that's even better (why not upgrade 2 schools of magic?).
First, quickly buff your units with mass blessings (this takes 1-2 turns), and then help with magic.
Artifacts are always a gamble:)

For example, if you use the Freezing spell on Incubi, with a Spell Power of around 30, they will take significant damage from the spell, plus they will be frozen for 0.3 turns, and physical damage to them will be almost twice as high.

Dracon Малласа

18 years ago

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I'm not arguing that Light is essential, but if Chaos is also present, that would be great (why not level up 2 schools of magic?).

Because it's better to level up something more worthwhile, or just one thing. I never level up either Air or Water magic with 2 spells unless absolutely necessary. Why waste levels?

Psionic

18 years ago

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Yeah, the battle will end quickly.
Either we'll kill them, or they'll kill us. :D
Cold is certainly a powerful element, especially with the "Rain of Arrows" spell, but:
- It's easily countered with antimagic on key units.
- They might have resistance.

If we're focusing on light magic, we'll only have time to cast that spell throughout the entire battle.
Mass Haste, Divine Punishment, Bless, Stone Skin... there won't be time for anything else.

By the way, "Armor Burning" can increase damage, potentially more than double, but it didn't help as much as casting light spells.

If you're attacking with a single, powerful spell, then for a knight, neither cold nor fire will be as terrifying as...
"Rain of Arrows" with beehives or sword walls.
If you manage to find 3 or 4 enemies, of course, and have those spells.
Plus, there's an advantage in that it doesn't really matter which enemies are in your cursed units. The main thing is to have a lot of these stacks in the enemy army for more targets for the "Rain of Arrows." :D
It's just very difficult to gather all of this, even in a long game, although it depends on the map...
I remember one battle where my elf had 4 enemies and the "Archer's Dream" skill, and I saw "Rain of Arrows" with beehives and sword walls, and the elf's spell power was over 70. That was truly intense. :D

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