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In reply to Gynnar
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18 years ago
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Gynnar;130570
Well, you're not entirely right....
1. If I'm completely wrong, do you need to lower my morale like that? So, you think I won't be able to prove you wrong? I see.
Gynnar;130570
Firstly, this is a universal tactic for all random map templates...
I'm telling you that it's not universal, or are you presenting your own opinion as an argument? I don't have "fresh examples" right now, but on regular random maps, the difficulty is 200%, the monsters are strong, there's no easy money on any map, and in the first week, there will be a maximum of 3 heroes – and even on the 3rd week, there might not be 8 heroes, etc.
Gynnar;130570
As for the fixed maps, this tactic is the ONLY one that works there because opponents are often located close to each other, and if you don't buy as many heroes as possible from day one and immediately explore and build an army, trying to steal money, resources, and artifacts from your opponent, then defeat is inevitable, even if you have a super advantage at the beginning (playing with a couple of heroes, not fighting right away, but just focusing on money is definitely not a strategy for fixed maps, even against the AI – I can say this with authority because I attended almost all the tournaments live as a spectator, organized by Maestro Horn on fixed maps in St. Petersburg).
It's hard to argue with that example, but the fixed maps you're talking about are obviously specific... because, for example, the fixed maps we play on don't have that kind of universal tactic... The number of heroes rarely exceeds 5 (even at the end of the game), and usually only 2 heroes are bought in the first week, as the rest go without an army...
To confirm what I'm saying, go to the "Heroes 3 Tournaments / Online Tournament 'Seasons'" section... and look at the "Victory and Defeat Reports" and both tournament threads, where these fixed maps are posted.
Read the descriptions in the reports, download, and look at the saves...
How many heroes are there? – and how did the development go?
In defense of the maps, I'll say that they are collected from various sources, including HeroesPortal, but there is also manual work by our masters.
Gynnar;130570
Furthermore, everything I write applies, first and foremost, to SoD!!!!! (although almost all the tips and tactics are also valid in TE, as it is the same SoD (and not another game, like Wog or version 4 or 5 of Heroes), but specifically modified for convenience, and, above all, for balancing multiplayer gameplay (player vs. player).
It's pointless to explain that TE is not SoD!!!
TE is an unofficial patch (not even an add-on).
Gynnar;130570
Now, please explain what reasoning you used to form your arguments (about the fact that my tactic is only suitable for random maps and certain templates, and that it's "+for the TE version"), and why, after accusing a "newcomer from another resource" (me) who "dared to present such a tactic," but at the same time being "especially smart" (since you put the word "smart" in quotes, it means the opposite, as I understand), you didn't "indicate the type of map before ridiculing or imposing your own development tactic, which confuses newcomers and causes disagreement among more advanced players." (I explained that my tactic is universal, and I didn't impose my tactic on anyone or ridicule anyone (I just pointed out the tactics of weak players and the tactics of good players), so you accuse me of this (although, as I showed, it's unfounded) – but why, at the same time, didn't you explain how and why you thought that (quoting your words):
1. If you read the previous paragraphs carefully, I think no further explanation is needed.
2. Absolutely no offense or accusations... I used the term "newbie" because you're new to the portal.
3. "Smart" means that you're not a newbie in Heroes, but you're not applying your knowledge quite correctly, which is what I pointed out.
In reply to Alex_R
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18 years ago
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Kolya! Don't take everything so seriously.
You've created a very good topic on tactics, and I'm sure it will be popular. And as for the smart alecks who are bothering you... just ignore them.
Honestly, I'm surprised by the amount of work you've done! To write so much, to spend so much time! Thank you.
You're a well-known player, and you communicate with the top players on the planet in Heroes 3. I think that those who shout that your tactics are too narrow and unsuitable for 75% of cases simply need to gain more experience in Heroes.
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18 years ago
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I completely agree. The game is designed this way to eliminate any "unexpected" situations, and trying to force Heroes (Sod, AB, 3.5) into a single tactical framework is simply a crime, although there is, of course, a foundation for development, but not a "universal tactic."
In reply to Er@ser
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18 years ago
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Er@ser;130792
I completely agree. Ultimately, the game is designed to eliminate all sorts of "surprises," and trying to force Heroes (SoD, AB, 3.5) into the framework of a single tactic is simply a crime, although there is, of course, a foundation for development, but not a "universal tactic."
Hmm, let me put it this way so as not to be immediately attacked...
The point is not about a single tactic; rather, Gunar described not a specific tactic but the principles of strategy games.
And these principles, as described by Gunar, can be characterized by two fundamental ideas:
1. Rapid scouting.
2. Rapid, aggressive development.

Can these two principles be applied to all the versions of Heroes mentioned? I personally believe that they can. Moreover, these are the principles that underlie the vast majority of strategy games, both turn-based and real-time.

Of course, one can describe cases where the tactic needs to be changed, but isn't there an exception to every rule?

P.S. And regarding Heroes, I categorically disagree with Alex_R about the 75%.
And a big thank you to Gunar for his patience and willingness to do something for the people; such initiatives should not be discouraged.

Added after 9 minutes
Alex_R;130709
I'm telling you that it's not universal, or are you presenting your IMHO as an argument? I don't have "fresh examples" right now, but in ordinary random games with 200% difficulty, the monsters are strong, and there will be no easy pickings on any of the maps, and in the first week, there will be a maximum of 3 heroes - and even on the 3rd week, there may not be 8 heroes, etc.
And here, allow me to express myself in the style of one of our well-known humorists from a website that shall not be named: "Haha."
If we're talking about Fixes, then we can still have some kind of debate, because in Fixes, you can draw whatever you want, but in the case of STANDARD templates generated for SoD (I don't know if there were any other templates in Armageddon?), the situation is completely different. For random games, what Gunar writes is 200% applicable, and that's the only way to play most effectively. If there are a maximum of 3 heroes on day 1, then you can just give up :). If you want, search the internet and look for descriptions of games from Chaos tournaments, where the game was played at 200% on fairly difficult templates with strong monsters. By week 3, people were consistently breaking utopias, not just barely managing to buy heroes.
And there were frequent cases of breaking utopias on week 2.
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18 years ago
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So, I also said that there is a framework for development, i.e., without which everything will collapse. For example:
1. Fast scouting.
2. Rapid aggressive development.

But Gunnar was talking about more than just that (although maybe I didn't fully understand it then, sorry).
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18 years ago
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and what if there are few resources? To build Cyclops and Behemoths, you need 30 crystals – not that much...
Guys, everything is beautifully described above, but finding 30 (or at least 10) crystals in the first week is not always possible... besides, you need 20 wood for Ogres, a lot of stone for everyone else, and money, of course... all this implies extraordinary luck for the player – and with this

Added after 58 seconds
I'll continue:-)
...with this luck, you can play as anyone – if you're lucky, then you're lucky!
In reply to Forrest
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18 years ago
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Forrest;130788
Kolya! Don't take everything so seriously.
You've created a very good topic on tactics, and I'm sure it will be in demand. And don't pay attention to the smart alecks who are bothering you.
Honestly, I'm surprised by the amount of work you've done! Writing so much, spending so much time! Thank you.
You're a well-known player, and you communicate with the top players on the planet in Heroes 3. I think that those who shout that your tactics are narrow and not suitable for 75% of cases just need to gain more experience in Heroes.
Well, of course - you're all "RP" players there, and we're just noobs.
In reply to Joshua
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18 years ago
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Joshua;130814
What if you have few resources? To build Cyclops and Behemoths, you need 30 crystals – not that much...
Guys, everything is beautifully described above, but finding 30 (or at least 10) crystals in the first week is not always realistic... besides, you need 20 wood for Ogres, a lot of stone for everyone else, and money, of course... all this implies extraordinary luck for the player - and with this

Added after 58 seconds
I'll continue:-)
...with this luck, you can play as anyone - if you're lucky, you're lucky!


Rapid development does not imply the need to fully build up the castle.
In reply to Papik
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18 years ago
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Papik;130799
P.S. And I absolutely cannot agree with Alex_R regarding the 75% figure for heroes.
Well, of course – he’s also into RPGs, I suppose.
But I used to compare everything based on my own experience – but that’s a fundamentally flawed approach... you need to look at everything logically, without egoism!
75% is, of course, an approximate figure – it might even be an exaggeration – but the point wasn’t that!
No one was trying to “show off” or “nitpick” Gunnar – it was quite clearly stated that the most important thing is to indicate against whom and under what conditions the tactic works.
I don’t understand why people engage in self-deception or try to pass off the unreal as real. I simply don’t understand people who talk about a universal tactic I DON’T UNDERSTAND!!!
Heroes is such a diverse game that there simply cannot be one single tactic (it’s even silly to explain this).
How can you believe your claims that you play better than everyone else when, for example, one of you writes:
Message from Gynnar
Only very weak players build up their economy in the early game, and by doing so, you will lose to even average players almost constantly.

This is complete nonsense, and it’s still presented as a universal tactic.
Guys, if you write things like that, then specify that you are not discussing TACTICS/HEROES 3 (see the topic where you post), but rather “TACTICS IN A RANDOM MAP GAME AGAINST A HUMAN PLAYER ON THE HEROES 3 TE VERSION”!!!
P.S. Everyone understands what they read according to their own level. ;)
In reply to Alex_R
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18 years ago
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Here, everyone is arguing, getting angry, and shouting at each other. I know how to end this argument (or at least pause it). The solution is a small duel, and the loser will apologize to everyone and admit that they had a flawed strategy. I can act as one of the seconds ;) . I think that for this, someone from the resource that shall not be named will agree to play on SoD?:) At least to two wins. And it will immediately become clear what needs to be built first on a random map: a Capitol or Behemoths))). What do you think?
In reply to Alex_R
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18 years ago
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Alex_R;130826
Of course - you're all "RP" players here, and everyone else is just a NOOB.
Alex_R,

The topic is actually useful precisely because it contains descriptions of game tactics - whether it's random maps, fixed maps, with or without economic development.

The description of tactics is just material for reflection; each reader has the opportunity to decide for themselves which of the tactics is acceptable. Therefore, you shouldn't worry so much about beginners: if a beginner has a "nutcracker" strategy, then even if you convey the "correct" tactic to him, he is hopeless.

In my opinion, if you continue to persistently determine who is a noob and who is a pro, and how THEY differ from THESE and Soda, the topic will again be overgrown with posts like "monsters are cool..." "Stronghold? Ugh, how can anyone even play it"...

Do you really need that??? What don't you like - Gynnar posted useful material, posted useful links?... I don't know, in your opinion, in order to determine what kind of player someone is, do you need to fill the entire "Stronghold tactics" topic with off-topic chatter? What does lowering morale have to do with it? What does "you're saying it's universal, but I'm saying it's not universal, through Pavel Morozov and Rosa Luxemburg" have to do with it?...

Just - describe your tactic, and the reader will decide for himself what is most useful to him from what is offered here.
Just - if you are so concerned about it, play a game and find out who is better, and then drop the subject.

I have nothing against you or your level of play; I am mainly concerned about the prospect of completely ruining the topic...
In reply to Vanechka
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18 years ago
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Vanechka;130839
The topic is actually useful because it contains descriptions of game tactics – whether it’s a random map, a fixed map, with or without economic development.
And who’s arguing? Did I say the topic is useless?
I just suggested specifying where to apply which tactic.
Vanechka;130839
The description of tactics is just material for reflection; each reader has the opportunity to decide for themselves which of the tactics is acceptable to them....
Message from Gynnar
Only very weak players build up their economy at the beginning, and by doing so, you will lose to even mid-level players almost constantly.

Is this what you call material for reflection, and what conclusion will readers draw?
Vanechka;130839
Do you need this??? What don’t you like – Gynnar posted useful material, posted useful links?... I don’t know, in your opinion, in order to find out who is what kind of player, is it necessary to fill the entire “Stronghold tactics” topic with off-topic content? What does lowering morale have to do with it? What does “you say it’s universal, and I say it’s not universal, through Pavel Morozov and Rosa Luxemburg” have to do with it?
I don’t need it – I wrote one post where I gave advice – after which there was a gathering of RPers who, with and without insults, tried to hint that everyone here is a NOOB.

Besides refuting the existence of a universal tactic, I wasn’t going to prove anything. If necessary, I’ll play a game.
In reply to Alex_R
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18 years ago
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Alex_R;130829
Well, of course – it’s also an RPG, I suppose.
But I used to compare everything to myself – but that’s a guaranteed misconception... you need to look at everything logically, without egoism!!!
75% is, of course, an approximate figure – it might even be an exaggeration – but that wasn’t the point!
Guys, if you write something like that, then you should specify that you are discussing not TACTICS/HEROES 3 (see the topic where you post) but "TACTICS WHEN PLAYING RANDOM MAPS AGAINST A HUMAN ON THE HEROES 3 TE VERSION"!!!
P.S. Everyone understands what they read according to their own level ;)
I’m at my limit. I’m a calm and often diplomatic person. But not always. I can also get angry, although I don’t like it and then I feel ashamed of myself.
And that’s why I won’t respond in kind. I will answer point by point.

1.
Alex_R;130829
Well, of course – it’s also an RPG, I suppose.
Not yet. But I really hope so. There’s not much left – 1 victory over Vik in an OРP tournament on a resource that cannot be named.
2.
Alex_R;130829
But I used to compare everything to myself – but that’s a guaranteed misconception... you need to look at everything logically, without egoism!!!
100% agree. That’s why I write based on the experience of Online players: Random players and Fixed players – from St. Petersburg, Minsk, Moscow (Chaos League and others). And also based on my own experience.
3.
Alex_R;130829
75% is, of course, an approximate figure – it might even be an exaggeration – but that wasn’t the point!
Approximate? Let’s try to calculate.
Let’s assume (since there is no way to compare – by the number of templates, it’s strange, and by the number of random-fixed games, I think it’s approximately equal) that Random and Fixed games are approximately equal, 50/50.
The universal tactic applies to all the templates I’ve seen for Heroes 3, both standard and those created by template builders. So, for starters, we have 50% (I’m ready to invite Alex_R, who disagrees with me on this postulate, to a game for money, say $200 – so it’s not too stressful, on the template he proposed – random, of course, where I will apply the tactic of a quick breakthrough, and he will build a Capitol in response. I’m ready to play up to 3 wins, say on SoD, with rules agreed upon by both of us.)
Next, Fixed games – here, of course, the situation is as God wills. I believe that there are maps where it is absolutely impossible to do without building a Capitol – but I am deeply convinced that these are few. It would be good to see your list of playable maps for a complete understanding of the situation with you, but I am sure that the number of such difficult and inflexible maps is no more than 20%.
In total, we have 90% – universal tactic, 10% (20% of 50%) – specific. I am ready to receive a different calculation in response.

4.
Alex_R;130829
Guys, if you write something like that, then you should specify that you are discussing not TACTICS/HEROES 3 (see the topic where you post) but "TACTICS WHEN PLAYING RANDOM MAPS AGAINST A HUMAN ON THE HEROES 3 TE VERSION"!!!
.
From the above in point 3, I can note
That, firstly, the specified tactic applies to all versions of Heroes 3 TE, SoD, WoG – against computers or humans – because the principles of the game have not changed, only the internal mechanics have changed partially. Moreover, the tactic applies to both 200% and 160% maps, but, of course, the nuances of development, the start, the speed of the breakthrough, and the pace of development will vary, but the general "template" of development remains unchanged.
That’s all I have on this matter.
I am ready to accept comments and discuss disagreements.

P.S. There have been several mentions of changes in magic, and mainly about Earth on level 2 – that it is impossible to cast on cursed land. Well, who prevents you from returning Earth to level 1 for such maps on TE? Even if there is no such bird, this can be done through configuration files. I think Horn can tell the world about this.
In reply to Alex_R
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18 years ago
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Alex_R;130846

Message from Gynnar
Only very weak players build up their economy in the early game, and by doing so, you will lose to even mid-tier players almost constantly.

Is this what you call food for thought, and what conclusion will readers draw?
My conclusion was as follows:
Vanechka;130584

...
From an economic perspective (i.e., even disregarding tactics), buying any hero with "+350 gold" is more attractive than building a prefecture.
Firstly: with the hero, you also acquire an army, which also costs money. So, when calculating the payback period, you should correctly reduce the cost of the hero for calculations by the cost of the troops purchased with him. Then, if the hero gathers monsters worth more than 750 gold (and this seems to be the case with all "+350" heroes, if you look at the creature list), then they are "more interesting" from the point of view of investment.
Secondly: the hero brings you resources, chests, external dwellings, participates in quest chains, and can ultimately develop "assets" - i.e., brings additional benefits, which also seem to be important... (and here we can think about how much 1000 gold is worth on the first day of the game, and how much it is worth at the end of the first month)
A special case is when you have enough money for both a prefecture and buying a "+350" hero.

In short, the statement that investing money in the economy of cities in the early game is a beneficial undertaking is far from being an absolutely correct one.

And as a result, if you buy the "last needed" hero in offline mode, which seems to be needed this week, then you should still hire him with a digger and dig for a +350 hero... just in case, at least....

What conclusions other readers will draw - unfortunately, I don't know...
I would also call several other posts by Gynnar as food for thought, possibly on related topics... Do I need to quote them again, or do you understand what I'm talking about?

But I see that you will manage without me... I'll be quiet......
By the way,
Alex_R;130846

...I wrote one post where I gave advice - after which there was a gathering of role-players who, with and without insults, tried to hint that everyone here is a NOOB...
Can you give me a link? Was this on their forum? Just curious...
And what are you going to do about it now?
18 years ago
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To Gynnar, To Forrest. Please, don't abandon the resource; it's interesting to read. There are probably scenarios where the economy is very tight, and you need to build a prefecture, a municipality, etc. But in a random game, it's always about the army, under any circumstances. Play a game with one of your opponents, and each side will stick to its own tactics. It would be even better if you create a "mirror match," i.e., both players are Barbarians, and then each of you writes about the game from your own perspective.

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