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Posts from 2000+ movepoints heroes after their death or deleting

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Regarding the stables specifically – firstly, this has nothing to do with the bug in Heroes 2, and secondly, it is one of the main features of the Castle, for which (among other things) players bid. I believe that removing such a feature as the special buyout of a hero in the Castle, gaining +400 mana there, then dismissing that hero and resurrecting him in another city, is wrong. It simply weakens the Castle and impoverishes the gameplay. However, the hero should be resurrected on the same turn with the same number of movement points as when he was dismissed; otherwise, with a sufficient amount of gold, we can obtain heroes with 4-6-8... movement points, which is, of course, absurd.
http://ru.twitch.tv/lizard_wt
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What will happen if a hero stands on a watering hole, the watering hole is removed, and then it's dug up again? Will it grant +1000 movement points?
This relates to the point about temporary effects.

The same questions apply to visiting a location that grants +400 or +600 experience before the next battle.
ICQ - 703804372
Discord - Xocenk#2473
In reply to Xocenk

I like Sav's ideas. 2k movements heroes are pain in ass, but bonus like stables and arts i think should be still available after digging.

Is it possible to make heroes 5lvl+ never coming in tav again after we kill them? If u want to have new control, u will need to farm exp... i think it's reasonable.

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In reply to =Lizard=

From my point of view absolutely top priority is to kill '2k' heroes, especially after exploit discovered.

if stable, artifact effects or object effects persist or not is completely secondary. At least disallowing object effects is consistent (so MP from slowest unit + artifacts is OK). Stable is questionable at this point, I would not mind to keep the effect, but this is not thing of great importance.

Killing heroes permanently or reseting their skillsets is other discussion for me. 

Fix should focus on removing 2k and block currently discovered exploit.

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=Lizard=
Regarding stables specifically – firstly, this has nothing to do with the bug in Heroes 2, and secondly, it is one of the main features of the Castle, for which (among other things) there is bidding. I believe that removing such a feature as the special buyout of a hero in the Castle, getting +400 mana there, then dismissing this hero and resurrecting him in another city is wrong. It simply weakens the Castle and impoverishes the gameplay. However, the hero should be resurrected on the same turn with the same number of movement points as when he was dismissed; otherwise, with a sufficiently large amount of gold, we can get heroes with 4-6-8... movement points, which is, of course, absurd.
What does weakening have to do with it if your opponent can also resurrect him? By removing the 2k bonus and leaving the bonuses from visited locations, it actually slightly improves the situation with randomness; instead of 2400, we have about 2100, and the situation is not much better.
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Sav
I've already written a fix for this and provided it to baratorch. So, I think it will be fixed soon.

Great, then I also support all the points. Thank you.

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In reply to Juristis
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I support all 4 points.
In reply to Xocenk
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Xocenk
What happens if a hero stands on a watering hole, you remove it, and then dig it up again? Will it grant +1000 movement points?
This relates to the point about temporary effects.

The same questions apply to visiting a watering hole that grants +400 or +600 movement points before the next battle.

I tested it in the game. If a hero stands on a watering hole, you remove it, and then dig it up again, they will have 3000 movement points. Moreover, if you move them around, remove it again, and dig it up, they will still have 3000 movement points.

Visiting a watering hole that grants +400 movement points before removal does not grant starting movement points when the dug-up hero is recovered.

ICQ - 703804372
Discord - Xocenk#2473
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Everything has already been said, just in a concise manner: - A hero from the tavern has a speed boost for the slowest unit in their army. - Fix for 2k. - Fix for invisible gnomes for rangers, necromancers, etc. - The bonus from artifacts should logically remain, as the hero "spends the night" with them in the tavern. - The bonus from the stables can remain, as it is a hero bonus for this week. - The bonus from the watering hole should be removed, as the hero spends the night in the tavern, not at the watering hole. - Killed support units receive a low priority for entering the tavern, so they cannot be summoned every turn. - When removed/killed, the limit on damage dealt per turn is reset. I support and approve! I would like to note that in the game, the hero does not die, but leaves the battlefield and is no longer under the player's control. Therefore, completely resetting the hero (experience, spells, skills) contradicts the game's logic. PS: I finished reading the thread, and overall, Sav outlined everything as described. Thank you for the patches.

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I agree with all the points. Regarding the issue with unearthed support units. It's incredibly frustrating when an opponent digs up both their own and your killed support units. And it's pure luck who digs up whom. Winning because you dug up support units isn't very satisfying, and losing is even worse. You have no control over it, and that's the most annoying part. I fully support this fix.
kolianxxxxxx#1890
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Yes, of course, the heroes should be completely reset, including all moves, bonuses, experience, and artifacts. Here's why: 1. The loss of support units will immediately become extremely critical because the tavern will no longer replace support units. 2. A lot of time is currently spent on digging and cycling through the tavern for heroes with 2k++ stats. This will become pointless and will result in more support units consuming the map. The game will essentially turn into Starcraft. As a result, the timer could even be reduced. 3. It will also become easier to set up traps, which will shorten the game time. It will be impossible to pre-arm from the tavern; the hero simply won't reach the location in time if a trap is set up correctly. 4. Situations like those in FFA with Goma and Savitar will be eliminated. In the event of crashes, reshuffling the tavern will play almost no role.
In reply to Sav
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Sav
Since many support the fix, I will write in more detail what specific changes I think could be made. What is indicated below is an ambitious plan. Perhaps not everything from this should be implemented.

1. When a hero enters the tavern, the number of movement points is set according to the army they came with. This means that there will be no heroes with 2000 movement points, and conversely, there will be no heroes with fewer movement points due to "phantom" 3 stacks (for example, when a hero arrives with 1 centaur, but the number of movement points is as if he has dwarves).

2. The removal of a hero in the tavern is treated as death (mana and movement points are restored).

3. When a hero dies, their temporary modifiers are removed: visits to stables, fountains of youth, etc. Also, the number of daily damage spells used in this turn is reset.

4. Expanding the mechanism that prevents digging up a hero. Currently, heroes who died simultaneously in battle are excluded from the pool. This can be expanded to include any hero deaths. At the same time, in order for the pool not to run out, the following mechanism applies:

— Each hero who can come to the tavern is assigned a rank depending on their level, artifacts, spells, etc. The minimum rank is assigned to level 0 heroes and weakly developed heroes (conditionally up to level 5 without artifacts). The next rank is for heroes up to level 10, etc.

— When selecting heroes for the tavern, a hero with the minimum rank is always chosen. If there are no more such heroes, then a hero of the second rank is taken, and so on. This prevents the hero pool from running out. At the same time, dead main heroes or heroes with powerful artifacts receive a high rank, and their arrival in the tavern is practically impossible.

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In single-player mode, all this should work exactly the same way. The mechanism against digging up heroes may damage games in the style of offline tournaments, where inviting a hero to the tavern is used. But I find it difficult to judge how much of a problem this is, and this format is not very popular in Heroes anyway. On the other hand, for casual play against the computer, anti-digging is a plus – powerful AI heroes will not be dug up.

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I will also say right away that I do not think it is possible to implement resetting hero levels upon death, primarily for atmospheric reasons. The problem needs to be solved with other mechanics.

Sav


— Each hero who can come to the tavern is assigned a rank depending on their level, artifacts, spells, etc. The minimum rank is assigned to level 0 heroes and weakly developed heroes (conditionally up to level 5 without artifacts). The next rank is for heroes up to level 10, etc.

— When selecting heroes for the tavern, a hero with the minimum rank is always chosen. If there are no more such heroes, then a hero of the second rank is taken, and so on. This prevents the hero pool from running out. At the same time, dead main heroes or heroes with powerful artifacts receive a high rank, and their arrival in the tavern is practically impossible.


What if we add a chance of appearance to the ranks? For example, level 1 heroes - 85% chance of appearing, level 2 - 10%, level 3 - 5%. This way, the real possibility of digging up a hero before the entire pool of heroes is exhausted can be preserved, but at the same time, it can be made too expensive to abuse.
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As I understand it, the drop rate rank will essentially make it impossible to find a powerful hero. Since the strongest hero will drop last, in order for it to drop, there must be 150+ hired heroes sitting in prisons across the entire map. In this case, wouldn't it be simpler to completely reset the hero? And why is this (complete reset) considered not atmospheric by Sav? All these complicated drop rate ranks are no less unatmospheric. I thought, if you assign a rank, you can also reset it. Either way, you won't be able to find it, so it doesn't matter whether it's reset or not.
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In reply to Juristis
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I agree with removing the abuse of movement exploits. However, I don't quite understand the hero rating system and the ability to be sent to the end of the tavern. Therefore, I would like this to be a feature exclusively for ranked games, if it is so necessary for players.
In reply to baratorch
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baratorch
As I understand it, the drop rank will make it practically impossible to find a strong hero. If the strongest hero drops last, then for him to appear, there must be 150+ hired heroes sitting in prisons across the entire map.
In this case, wouldn't it be simpler to completely reset the hero? And why is this (complete reset) considered not atmospheric by Sav? All these complicated drop ranks are no less unatmospheric.

I thought, if you assign a rank, you can also reset the hero. Either way, you won't be able to find him, so it doesn't matter whether he's reset or not.
A hero is a personality, not a robot whose memory is erased after defeat or dismissal. It is abnormal to dismiss a hero and see him in the tavern the next day, but without skills, as if he were reborn. After dismissal, the hero will go looking for a job with the skills he has, or he will retire, but he will not become a novice again.

Ranks will not be unatmospheric, as they will not be displayed anywhere, and it will not be necessary to know about them at all. For players, it will look like this: killed or dismissed strong heroes will not appear in the tavern (except for some extreme cases that are unattainable in real games). They may not appear now, and the rule about the mutual death of heroes has been working in the same spirit for a long time, so it does not introduce anything new that could be unatmospheric.

However, weakly developed heroes (from AI or dismissed after gaining only a couple of levels) will still be able to appear in the tavern, and this will add liveliness and atmosphere to the game, just as it does now (but, unlike the current situation, it will not introduce any significant imbalance).

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