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Posts from MMH5.5 - Heroes of Might and Magic 5.5Auto-translated
Everything sounds great; I’m glad we talked about that. And I hope we can help each other in the future.)
Added 3 minutes later As for your modding wiki, it’s a great idea. Really great. I would love to contribute to it with my guide about model and animation import in H5 after I translate it. At the moment, I just don’t have enough time to do so, but I definitely will translate it in the future.
I really don't want all the stuff that I worked on to instantly become part of someone else's project.
I'm just a casual observer here, and maybe I don't quite understand the context, but it was very strange to read this post. Firstly, I don't see any reason for it. From my experience, most modders don't take other people's assets without permission. There are very few cases of violations, especially among large projects. Secondly, such a request and attitude coming from someone who has taken models, textures, and animations, and not just from a mod, but from another game (did they get written permission from the copyright holders?), is very strange. :smile42:
@Leonion lets put that at rest. Ultimately all men' work is made on top of other people achievements - it is based on work made by people close us, or at times work coming from society or even work based on previous generations.
Eventually alone we can do so little, together we can do so much.
I'm an outsider here, of course, and maybe I don't fully understand the context, but it was very strange to read this post. Firstly, I don't see any prerequisites for it. In my experience, most modders don't take others' resources without asking. Instances of violations are rare, especially among major projects. Secondly, such a request and attitude sounds very strange coming from a person who ripped out models, textures, and animations themselves, and not just from a mod, but from another game (surely with written permission from the copyright holders?). :smile42:
I have already written tons of text many times about why you need to credit the authors of the resources you use, and why this is important for the development of the community. I am very, very tired of this conversation and tired of proving something, as it seems more and more to me that nobody gives a damn.
But I will try anyway. Answering the "firstly." Speaking for myself personally, resources I have worked on in one way or another are in many projects, mostly large ones; permission to use them was not asked of me a single time. Mention of my involvement is far from constant. Judging by what I hear from other people, I'm not some special case; this is how everyone treats everyone. I am very surprised that you have a "different experience," but I am sincerely glad that you encountered a different situation and would be happy if this "ask-before-you-take" situation becomes the norm. Plus, not only am I not against people using resources I've had a hand in for their projects, I'm all for it. I even wrote that we all need to make it more convenient to use a mod's resources when releasing it. And I plan to do so in my future mod. I don't want "copyright trolling"; all I want is for us to mention each other's names and establish connections.
Regarding the "secondly." I think it's unnecessary to explain that Ubisoft and I are in different weight classes and I could in no way, even if I really wanted to, become their competitor by using their own content? In short, agree that the situation here is slightly different than between two modders. The point is that I'm not fighting for some abstract "justice" here, but against something that, quite logically, hinders the development of the community.
On the issue of "ripping out models." It sounds like an accusation, which is quite unpleasant. First of all, "ripping out models" and properly implementing them into HoMM 5, surprisingly, also requires time and effort, and I would like people who use the results to know who put effort into this. Secondly, I have never misled anyone by saying that the resources were made by me; on the contrary, every time the models are praised, I say that it is the work of the HoMM 7/6 dev team. I would gladly name specific names and provide links, but in most cases, they are impossible to find. When I made a Star Wars mod, I provided links to the original files, wrote the names of the model authors, and asked their permission beforehand. And my mods are not limited to "ripping out models," although that is, unfortunately, the most noticeable and most in-demand part. Thirdly, I have already said that as a modding community, we need to stop using borrowed resources for our development; I strongly support this idea, but to put it mildly, I don't find many supporters (on the contrary, it's met with hostility). In any case, moving to creating your own resources can be difficult and it's a road that can take more than a day, and you have to start with something. That's why I strive to get as many people interested in modding as possible, and for them, it's easiest to start by borrowing resources. But for me to be able to interest these people or help them with advice, they must first find out about me from somewhere. Do you see where I'm going with this? And this doesn't just apply to me. The point was that we should get to know each other and establish connections.
Fourthly. Do you really dislike that I use others' resources and that I'm "showing off something" on top of that? Sorry, I'm getting a bit emotional now. I'm already very tired of all kinds of negative reactions coming out of nowhere. After every such outburst, I just want to snap and delete the work I spent the last month or two on. It feels like I'm the one who would lose something from this. I would only calm down and relax my brain, stop spending all my free time on this stupid work (and it is exactly work, and it requires a ton of time).
In short, I'm really tired, and if you think that I'm doing something wrong somewhere and it's better for me not to do what I'm doing, say so and I'll immediately delete all the files I've had a hand in. Because my motivation was to somehow bring joy to people with my hobby, and if that's not the case, then I don't want to do it.
Added after 35 minutes I'm really tired of this stupid and tedious crap, which also constantly results in negativity and arguments. Soon I will put a big cross over modding Heroes 5 for myself, and these two and a half months, which already slightly resemble torture, will end. I would just like to finish the thing I'm currently working on at the end, because I know it will please at least a few people. And that is worth something, and then it will have been "not in vain."
I'm speaking from personal experience; resources that I worked on, in one way or another, are present in many projects, mostly large ones, and I was never asked for permission to use them. My involvement is not always mentioned. Judging by what I hear from other people, it's not that I'm special; it's a common practice.
Well, then, my apologies. Maybe this is a specific characteristic of the HOMM community, although it surprises and disappoints me. For several years, I was an active member of the modding community on Warband, and there, the absence of a detailed list of credits for a mod was rather an exception, especially among top mods. "Piracy" occurred either among Chinese users (who like to extract resources from everywhere and put them into their mods) or among small mods, whose authors, it seems, have not quite "grasped" the ethics of modding. But this was always suppressed: such mods were banned on the first request, and the author faced shame and disgrace. Moreover, it was generally not acceptable to take something from other mods, but only from OSP materials, which some authors specifically released for anyone who wanted them and found them useful. Therefore, for me personally, zahar0z
it is necessary to indicate the authors of the resources you use and why this is important for the development of the community.
is as obvious as 2+2=4, and I don't need to be convinced of this.)
However, the issues of "competition" do not really concern me and are not entirely clear. Resources are not "stolen" for ethical and legal reasons, not because of competition. And if someone took my work and put it into their mod, I would simply write to the administration of moddb with a request to ban that mod. And "extracting" resources from other games is not good for reasons of competition, but because these resources are protected by copyright. Because, otherwise, according to your logic, it turns out that if a mod/game is already cool and popular ("we, the Ubisoft team, are in different weight categories, and I can't become their competitor even if I want to"), then you can freely take assets from it.
And I know that adapting models for another game also requires effort. I myself worked on skinning free models from free3d.com for my mod. Or recently, I encountered a situation where the Chinese extracted the armor of the Grey Wardens from DAO and put it into Warband (and released it as if it were OSP, although it is not). And one of the players in the mod I'm working on retextured them (the changes are quite significant) and, among other things, allowed me to use them. These retextures look simply DIVINE and fit perfectly, but since the rights to the original models belong to BioWare, I cannot use them, no matter how much I want to. And simply mentioning/thanking the original authors is not enough; you need to have their written permission. These are the modding standards that most large modders on Warband follow. I understand that it may seem absurd that copyright holders are still clinging to assets and engines for games from a century ago instead of releasing them for open use long ago (because they will not lose anything from this, but will only gain the love of fans) and that the only way to legally get a model, say, of some creature or armor for your mod is to create a similar reproduction from scratch, but these are the rules. zahar0z
After each such outburst, I just want to freak out and delete the work that I spent the last month or two on.
If you only knew how often I felt that way.))) And we're talking about years of work, not months. And I worked not only on Warband. But the truth is that I enjoy doing this (despite the sometimes completely inadequate people who, without reading the changelog for the next update, start asking stupid questions and making claims, or, based on the slightest changes to optional features, write a review "1/10, the mod is unplayable"). And, of course, it's nice to read positive feedback about the innovations I've made. That's why I keep gnawing on the cactus. You just have to gnaw on it without double standards; otherwise, the line between who you can "borrow" resources from and who you can't becomes very blurred.
Well, in that case, I apologize. Maybe this is just a peculiarity of the HOMM community, although it surprises and disappoints me. For several years, I was an active member of the modding community on Warband, and there, the absence of a detailed list of credits for a mod was rather an exception, especially among top-tier mods. "Piracy" was encountered either among the Chinese (who love to extract resources from everywhere and put them into their mods) or among small mods, whose authors apparently hadn't quite "gotten the hang" of modding ethics. But this was always suppressed: such mods were banned on the first request, and the author faced shame and disgrace. In addition, it was generally not accepted to take anything from mods, but only from OSP materials, which some authors specifically released for anyone who wanted them and found them useful. So, personally for me,
I think that the strong limitations in modding and the lack of the ability to upload something of your own into the game are partly to blame here (I didn't experience the time when HoMMV modding was thriving). This leads to the thought: why create something of your own if you can't use it in the game?Leonion
And simply mentioning/thanking the original authors is not enough; you need to have written permission from them. These are the modding standards that most major modders on Warband follow. I understand that it may seem absurd that copyright holders are still clinging to assets and engines for games that are decades old instead of releasing them for open use long ago (because they would lose nothing from it and would only gain the love of fans), and that the only way to legally obtain a model, say, of some creature or armor for your mod is to create a similar reproduction from scratch, but these are the rules.
But doesn't it seem strange that the use of original models, animations, etc., which cannot be touched without the permission of the copyright holders (the developers don't have the rights to them) is almost all of the visual modding in Heroes 5? If there were such ethical requirements here as in Warband, there would be no mods at all due to technical limitations. I haven't played Warband, but according to your requirements for mods, things aren't as bleak and depressing there as in Heroes (in terms of modding). At the very least, the developers provided tools for mods or something like that.
Now, let's compare the mods of a game whose developers intended to have a platform for creativity when they made it, and the mods of a game that the developers made simply as a game (bought, played through the story, beat the AI on maps, deleted) and didn't even think about modding.
Leonion In my opinion, the modding community for Warband (and Mount & Blade in general) is a prime example of what we should strive for. I used to create small things for Might and Magic, and I have a good understanding of how it works. The modding community for Heroes 5 is as far from this as possible.
I also know about the Chinese modders. But they don't just steal mods; they steal everything they can get their hands on, both in modding and in local commercial game development.
In short, I'm saying that we need to aim for the way the Warband modding community works. We need to identify the authors of different works, establish connections, get to know each other, and promote a system of open-source projects, etc. The main problem is that this is probably impossible. And the reason is a significant difference between modding for Heroes 5 and Warband: we have significantly fewer people, and there are practically no people who can create their own resources. I was literally told directly, "You're the only one." People, neither the authors nor the audience, are interested in this. Plus, it's physically impossible to force someone to ban something. So, we can't stop it; we can only try to persuade people with a better alternative, but that doesn't really work.
I won't explain the "competition" issue; I'm sure you would agree with my point if I explained it thoroughly and clearly, but that's not important now, and it's not relevant to either of us.
Regarding the fact that 90 percent of our modding consists of borrowed content. It's not as black and white as it seems at first glance. And unfortunately, "double standards" apply here. First, no matter how much armchair experts on the TaleWorlds forum claim, from a legal point of view, game resources such as models, textures, and so on are, surprisingly, often not directly protected. Of course, Ubisoft would still win any lawsuit against us if they wanted to. But they need to want to sue us in the first place, and that will never happen. Secondly, for now (and I really hope it stays that way), we only take resources from the same series of games as Heroes 5. And as far as I know, we have permission to use these resources for non-commercial activities. However, there is a suspicion that this permission was granted by someone who did not have the authority to do so. Perhaps just a clerk from the support department. Thirdly, in the case of Warband, it can be unequivocally stated that "stealing" resources is wrong, and that would be correct. Unfortunately, we can't say that. It's physically impossible to simply ban everyone. If you start saying that you shouldn't take what doesn't belong to you, you'll immediately be labeled a "copyright troll" and so on. "Stealing" resources currently plays a useful constructive role: it attracts new people to the community. Among these people, there are those who try to create something themselves. "Stealing" resources helped them discover 3ds max for the first time, and that, you'll agree, is a step in the right direction.
In short, I really dislike the position of "it's bad because it's bad" if, in my opinion, when something is "bad," we need to explain why it's bad. "Illegal" is not an argument in this case, at least because it's not always legally illegal. But in the case of "stealing" resources, there are specific arguments why it's bad, apart from "illegality." And this is precisely the difference between what people do for Heroes 5 and for Warband. Do you want us to be able to create something? Then stop stealing. But in the specific case of Heroes 5, there are also arguments why it's beneficial. Therefore, if we were to simply stop borrowing (even if it were possible), nothing good would happen for the Heroes 5 modding community; it would simply die.
I'm 100 percent sure that our community needs to change. But it's impossible to do it with a snap of your fingers. I'm not even sure it's possible. The modding community for Might and Magic developed slowly, and from the very beginning, it had these rules. As far as I understand, the Turkish developers themselves initially formed this community. Heroes 5 has a completely different story.
Actually, I would be happy to listen to you if you have any ideas on how we could bring the Heroes 5 modding community to the state in which the Warband modding community is. Even some general ideas could be useful.
And by the way, what Warband mod are you working on? Send a link; I'd be interested to take a look.
Added 21 minutes ago footman
In my opinion, the strong limitations in modding are partly to blame, as well as the lack of ability to import custom content into the game (I didn't experience the time when HoMMV modding was thriving). This leads to the thought: why create something of your own if you can't use it in the game?
And what about the fact that using original models, animations, etc., which cannot be touched without the permission of the copyright holders (the developers don't have the rights), is almost all of the visual modding for Heroes 5?! If there were ethical requirements here like in Warband, there would be practically no mods due to technical limitations. I haven't played Warband, but based on your requirements for mods, things aren't as bleak and depressing as in Heroes (in terms of visuals). At the very least, the developers provided tools for modding or something similar.
Now, let's compare the mods of a game whose developers intended to provide a platform for creativity when they made it, and the mods of a game that the developers made simply as a game (buy it, play through the story, beat the computer on maps, delete it), and there was no talk of modding among them.
No offense, but whining about the "limitations" of Heroes 5 is nothing more than whining. The ability to import models and animations into Heroes 5 exists. There is nothing that would limit your ability to create these models and animations, rather than stealing them from another game. Everything else is irrelevant.
And by the way, there was simply no time when the modding for Heroes 5 was particularly "more alive" than it is now. Believe me, I've been following this topic for about 10 years. From a visual point of view, you can see for yourself what "masterpieces" people created when making mods during the "golden age" of Heroes 5 modding. It's really impressive, isn't it?
No offense, but complaining about the "limitations" of Heroes 5 is just whining. The ability to import models and animations into Heroes 5 exists; there's nothing that limits your ability to create these models and animations, rather than stealing them from another game. Everything else is irrelevant.
And by the way, there was never a time when modding for Heroes 5 was particularly "more active" than it is now. Believe me, I've been following this topic for about 10 years. From a visual point of view, you can see for yourself what kind of "masterpieces" people created when modding during the "golden age" of Heroes 5 modding. It's really impressive, isn't it?
I meant that if this possibility had appeared not 2 years ago, but had been available from the year the game was released, the situation might have been different. Otherwise, you can only list what you can't do: create your own unique ability, add a new type of animation, such as "defend" which appeared in Heroes 6, create a full-fledged boss (without technical bugs and developer shortcomings), like Arriban from the same sixth installment, use vertex maps, and I would have liked to remove Gloss due to its flawed implementation, and you also can't create your own effect (it would be more accurate to say you can, but you can't export it into the game), and so on.
Regarding mods from the golden age, I've seen very few of them to judge, either the links are broken or there are no screenshots at all (I only remember griffons with open helmets).
add a new type of animation, for example, "defend," which appeared in Heroes 6.
Hmm, and how is the defense animation implemented for the Ancient Ents, through a specability? I never thought about it. P.S. Perhaps it would be worth moving the discussion to the well-known thread about rights and responsibilities to avoid cluttering the modding-related topics. I'll do that later.
. The possibility of importing models and animations into Heroes 5 exists; there is nothing that would limit your ability to create these models and animations, rather than stealing them from another game. Everything else is irrelevant.
Everything else you listed does not prevent you from creating your own models. You have a choice, and nothing puts you personally in a position of "either stolen or nothing." As a community, we have brought ourselves to this point, but this is solely our mistake and a different story.
Added 2 minutes ago Ment
P.S. Perhaps it would be worth moving to a well-known human rights topic so as not to flood the mod-related topics again. I'll do that later.
You are right. I just hope Leonion doesn't miss this conversation. Maybe he can offer something useful.
Hmm, and how is the defense animation made for the ancient ents, using specability? I never thought about it. P.S. Perhaps, it would be worth moving to the well-known human rights topic to avoid flooding the mod-related threads again. I'll do that later.
It's done through specability; the regular model is replaced with one that has the "_rooted" designation, and it has its own animations.
Could we somehow contact Ubisoft and ask for permission to use assets from their Might and Magic games (specifically Dark Messiah, Heroes 6/7, i.e., their older, less relevant projects) for non-commercial mods for the 5th game?
We could hint that everyone is already doing this (with numerous examples here and on ModDB), and if Ubisoft gives the green light, it will be better for everyone. Could we write a collective letter from the resource as a friendly gesture?
It seems like Psatha has already done something similar, but it would be good to have information with permission and proof displayed prominently on the forum. And it should be clear who issued this permission, not just "I was given permission," "Who?" "Irina from Ubisoft."
Added 1 minute ago footman
Through specability, a regular model is replaced with one marked with _rooted, which has its own animations.
Interesting. We could do the same thing with Namtars. That is, make a Namtar spider in the rooted version, and a human Namtar in the regular version.
Added 1 minute ago That's interesting. We could do the same thing with the Nighthawk. That is, in the Root editor, create a spider Nighthawk, and in the regular version, a human Nighthawk.
It seems that the human version of the Nighthawk didn't make it from the sixth game, only the spider-like one.
Added 2 minutes ago zahar0z
Speaking of the rights issue.
Could we somehow contact Ubisoft and ask for permission to use assets from their Might and Magic games (specifically Dark Messiah, Heroes 6/7, i.e., their older, less relevant projects) for non-commercial mods for the 5th game?
We could hint that everyone is already doing this (with numerous proofs here and on ModDB), and if Ubisoft gives the green light, it will be better for everyone. Could we write a collective letter from the resource?
It seems that Psatha has already done something like this, but it would be good if information with permission, along with proof, was prominently displayed on the forum. And it should be clear who issued the permission, not just "they gave me permission," "who?" "Irina from Ubisoft."
It would be better to ask for the source files for the 5th Heroes game right away, for non-commercial mods... the loss of models from the 6th game isn't that big of a deal, especially since some of them don't look very good without FX particles and the fading effect.
I did send letters to Nival and Ubisoft about H5 source a few years back. Nival repsonded but they could not do anything because Ubisoft holds the rights.
Ubisoft did not respond but I am not sure if I sent the mail to the correct place.
If you are going to send a community request to Ubi, count me in!
I did send letters to Nival and Ubisoft about H5 source a few years back. Nival responded but they could not do anything because Ubisoft holds the rights.
Ubisoft did not respond but I am not sure if I sent the mail to the correct place.
If you are going to send a community request to Ubi, count me in!
Perhaps Ubisoft is interested in the double standards in their favor? For example, how they handled Warcraft 3 Reforged, where everything created through their map editor belongs to Blizzard. Did you consider this when sending your letter?
zahar0z
