Posts from Modding, copyright, and related issues. Auto-translated

I think it would be better for all parties if, instead of adding one mod to another, efforts were made to ensure compatibility between mods and to provide links to compatible mods. Everyone would benefit from this: large mods would demonstrate their optionality and flexibility, and smaller projects would gain attention.

I completely agree.
But in addition, I believe that we should all defend this point of view and protect our right to be mentioned, the right to have links provided to our work. Instead of simply ignoring the situation and doing nothing about it. It is possible to change the situation, and it is entirely within our power; we just need to reach out to people.

By the way, I sent a message to Dreadknight about this.

Added 5 minutes ago

Well, since your content was included in his MOD, it means the creator had a reason to do so.

I don't think all modders aim to have their mods included in larger projects.

Yeah, I dream of my work becoming part of some tasteless NCF compilation or a giant mod dump like Eva.
Especially when you're working on some authentic mod (like one based on Star Wars) and it's being dissected before release to be thrown into an NCF compilation, along with elves and goblins. I'm really overjoyed after that, with the recognition of my work (which may not even be mentioned).

How can you calmly publish anything in a Community that treats this as normal, without fearing that it will be... uh, borrowed?



Added 6 minutes ago

Well, yes, or at least ask for permission, because as I understand it, dredknight didn't ask for permission from the respected comrade zahar0z to use his content... well, okay, he didn't ask, but at least write that the content of such-and-such a modder was used and provide a link to the source!

I honestly don't know if there are any resources in 5.5 that I worked on. But Dreadknight wrote that there were. Now I don't see the point in checking and trying to persuade him to remove anything from 5.5. But if in the future our "cooperation" becomes normal cooperation and we act according to the scheme described by Frozensoull, I will be very happy.

it would be better if, instead of including it in the compilation, efforts were made to ensure compatibility between mods.

In the end, this benefits everyone.

Added 5 minutes ago

Also, I would really like it if I wasn't the only one so actively defending this position. Without permission and without attribution, not only resources from my mods are used. I would like other modders to defend themselves and help create a healthy atmosphere in the Community. Of course, I try to do this as much as possible, but I think it's not right, because I start making decisions for other people's projects.

Simply, in a Community where everyone doesn't care and I'm the only one rushing around and proving things, I sometimes get the impression that I'm just a troublemaker and a "copyright troll." And that I'm just "stingy."))

Added 13 minutes ago

I don't see anything bad in 5.5, on the contrary - it's a kind of framework on which you can attach additions/improvements and look at 5.5 as something that contributes to the spread of our creativity...

I'm all for it, if it were a framework (like the NCF core), and not a replacement.

You're talking nonsense.
Firstly, how is the desire of the 5.5 authors to integrate the NCF core with the rest of the mod related to some mythical "theft" of your content, which everyone seems to be imagining? Let me reveal a secret: 5.5 is not a simple collection of NCF creatures, like Eva, but simply a balance mod for the original game. There is no problem using any visual mods with it.

And secondly, I found mentions of your mods in the 5.5 Discord -

The authors are listed, everything is fine.

Here is a link to the mod's topic, which many people will definitely see; the Discord server is very active. And there will be no problems installing the mod along with 5.5... So what is your problem, seriously?

If they don't include these resources in the body of their mod, then there are no problems at all in this specific case. On the contrary, it's even a good thing. But please, no need for that. I'm not throwing such words at you.

You're writing nonsense.

I understand that I may have offended some fan feelings, but that's still no reason.

There is no problem using any visual mods together with it.

Is this a definite fact, or just something you said off the cuff? As far as I remember, there were problems with using my simple visual mods together with 5.5; someone even complained, as if I was obliged to adapt to 5.5.

Firstly, how is the desire of the 5.5 authors to combine the ncf core with the rest of the mod related to some mythical "theft" of your content, which everyone seems to be seeing everywhere?

It's simply related. Since 5.5 doesn't support ncf right now, they can't even theoretically take a large number of resources into their mod. If it supports it, they will be able to take them. Please think one step ahead. And I'm very unhappy that you're speaking so dismissively about this problem. Think several steps ahead; everyone loses a lot from the problem of "content theft." I'm not just constantly hammering this into everyone on the forums; I'm not worried about my own work, I'm worried that the Community isn't developing.

I'll let you in on a secret: 5.5 is not a stupid collection of ncf creatures, like Eva, but simply a balance mod for the original game.

Again, is this a definite fact, or just something you said off the cuff? As far as I remember, Dreadnaut, when inviting people to join his team, wrote that he was using resources that I worked on in the 5.5 mod. Are you saying that there are no borrowed models from other mods in 5.5?

well, what can I say. keep creating your mods, frameworks, games, and development programs too; the main thing is to prevent those damned Americans from stealing them. or what's the point of this conversation anyway? or is this the essence of a troublemaker and a copycat?

as for the visuals in 5.5, there's a mod with improved textures + some map objects have been changed, and some heroes have modified models. unfortunately, I don't know the authors. there are obviously no new creature models (ncf).

But in addition, I would like to say that I believe we should all defend this point of view and protect our right to be mentioned, the right to be linked to. And not just ignore the situation and do nothing about it. It is possible to change the situation, and it is quite within our power; we just need to communicate with people.

Also, I would really like it if I wasn't the only one so zealously defending this position. Without permission and without indicating authorship, resources from not only my mods are used. I would like other modders to defend themselves and help create a healthy atmosphere in the Community. Of course, I try to do this as much as possible, but it seems to me that this is not right, because I start making decisions for other people's projects.

It is certainly necessary to defend this position, but is it necessary to arrange an "inquisition"? With adequate people, it is enough to simply have a normal conversation, without getting worked up, and explain the situation. But with those who become inadequate, no matter how you explain it, they will stubbornly insist on their own way....
And you can't do anything about it; neither you nor I, nor anyone else has any copyright. Legally, we will not be able to influence the situation in any way, but we can convey to people the idea of why it is bad not to indicate links to the original source and to the authors.

By the way, in defense of dredknight, I can say that I have repeatedly observed that he contacted the authors of modifications and asked for their opinion on adding their mods to 5.5. I don't think he would add anything without the authors' consent. In addition, do not forget that there is still a small language barrier between us, and there may have been some misunderstandings between you.

Added 6 minutes ago

well, what can I say. make your mods, frameworks, games, development programs too, just make sure the damned Americans don't steal them. or what are these conversations about? or is this the very essence of a troublemaker and a copyright defender?

The point is not in being a troublemaker, but in the fact that the mods that become part of large projects remain in their shadow forever.

People have no idea what these projects were originally. And the authors of these mods do not receive any feedback because their projects and they themselves are not known to anyone. As a result, there is a feeling that everything they do in modding/mapmaking is not needed by anyone, and over time they stop doing it. Do I need to explain the further consequences for the Community?

Do I need to explain the further consequences for the community?

specifically for the community? On the contrary, it's positive because more people will play these small mods as part of larger mods than they would if they were separate. For the mod authors? Just negotiate/work together with the authors of the larger mods, that's all. What's the point of endlessly discussing this?

specifically for the community? on the contrary, positive.

The fact that people quit modding and mapmaking because of this is a positive consequence for the community? I understand.

well, negotiate/collaborate with the authors of major mods, that's all. what's the point in endlessly discussing this?

There's no point in discussing this specifically in this thread; it just came up and a discussion started. On the other hand, this information might be taken to heart by modders, and that could have a beneficial effect on collaboration between authors.

It is certainly necessary to defend this position, but is it necessary to start an "inquisition"?

I don't think I am doing that; you know very well that I always try to communicate and resolve the situation peacefully. I’m just saying that it would be great if I wasn’t the only one doing it.

Well, what can I say? Keep making your mods, frameworks, games, and development programs too, as long as those damned Westerners don't steal them. Or what are these conversations even about? Is this the essence of a troublemaker and copyright infringer?

The problem is that no matter how much we create ourselves, users like you will see it as the merit of other people.
And what do “Westerners” have to do with it anyway? In short, is this all how I seem from the outside? A troublemaker – a “copyright infringer”?

Perhaps I am wasting my time protecting the interests of modders, trying to negotiate something with Remix or moderators of groups, now trying to get in touch with Dreadnaut. Maybe you are right, maybe I should just give up: “the barn has burned down, let the house burn too.” Maybe Footman is right, and our community is too inactive to do anything worthwhile.
Maybe it’s worth giving up on this damn 5th installment modding altogether, and maybe it’s time for me to do so.

At least I have less and less strength to prove anything to anyone.
And the impression that everyone is happy with the current state of affairs is growing stronger: one by one, talented modders "throw everything away," while large mod collections become popular at their expense; only 2.5 people hang out in our forum, while thematic VKontakte groups show some activity with at least a hundred people, but we don't have people with real skills, only tons of pretentiousness. It seems to me that everyone is fine with things as they are, and this is an unpleasant feeling. If you want changes, everyone will have to work together.

But the conversation was precisely about finding common ground between people – not prohibiting the use of our work under any circumstances, but making sure that it benefits both parties.
But you didn’t understand this idea, apparently. Perhaps you were too lazy to read my long post, so you probably won’t read this either.

Added 6 minutes ago

Specifically for the community? On the contrary, positive, because more people will play these small mods within larger mods than if they were separate.

The fact that people stop modding and creating maps because of this has positive consequences for the community? I see.

It’s like talking to a wall. Please tell me, Gerter, are you sure you're "fighting on the right side" now? Doesn't it seem that such logic could lead to not the best consequences?

I am already trying with all my might to lure new people into the community with incentives, manuals, and 24-hour consultations who will do something in the future. It is very unfortunate that all these efforts will be easily thwarted by your attitude: “why are you complaining,” “go work.”

For mod authors? Well, negotiate/work together with the authors of large mods; what's the point in endlessly discussing this?

And why do you think we owe anything to people who take the results of our work without asking? How does this even make sense in your head, I don't understand.

Added 4 minutes ago

There is no point in discussing this specifically in this topic; it just came up and started a discussion. On the other hand, perhaps this information will be perceived by modders, and this will have a beneficial effect on the interaction between authors.

Damn, there is a reason to "discuss" this – otherwise, how will people understand that they need to get moving and somehow build connections?

Although maybe it would be more relevant to discuss this, for example, in this topic:
/topic/14858/

you're doing a good job of resolving things peacefully and reaching out, but in every message, you're slapping labels on people you don't know and constantly bringing up unnecessary negativity.

if you see a problem, solve it; you have all the opportunities. my position on this issue is absolutely neutral because I don't see any problems with copyright in a 15-year-old game, where everything is done voluntarily and out of personal desire. if you see such a problem, then go ahead, it's all solvable, and I have no doubt that the authors of 5.5 will be willing to cooperate. damn it, I'm posting screenshots here where your mods are shared with a mention of the topic and authorship (read, good advertising), but in the Mania community, it seems like everyone is a thief. how can you not remember the copyright trolls and all that...

Firstly. Perhaps I was too harsh with my criticism of 5.5. I'm not 100% sure that they are actually taking other people's resources and using them in their project. That's why I was asking you about it. Secondly. Can you show me where I "labeled" you? Because I don't think I did. I can't say the same about you in relation to me. You called my work "complete nonsense," "a fan project," "copycat," and other things. But I'm not easily offended. Regarding the negativity, there's also this: negativity in text messages often arises from how they are read. In any case, I try to ensure that your "positive" comments about the fan project don't hinder constructive dialogue. Please try to ignore all this negativity where I mention that you're a fan of the 5.5 mod. Seriously, how exactly could I have offended you in my messages? Thirdly. Even if I'm "wrong" in your opinion about how I'm solving the problem, my actions have some objective benefit. At least one person has learned how to convert models using my guide, and at least one large group will now be posting links to the authors of the modifications, which will make it at least a little easier for these authors to see that their work is appreciated. I'm not trying to brag; I just want you to listen. Perhaps there is some merit to the overall message of my actions? Perhaps if we all put in this effort, the situation could actually change for the better? Added 5 minutes later

See a problem - solve it.

That's exactly what I'm doing, to the best of my ability. But I can't single-handedly change the existing, established rules. I want us to solve the common problem together, which is why I keep writing about it on the forum. Plus, I really don't want to spend even more nerves and energy on this, which is already a time-consuming hobby. Seriously, I've almost disappeared from real life for the past two months. What am I even doing this for? Is it so that all these, already small, efforts to help the community will be nullified by messages like "what are you whining about?" "large mods are the best" "and the group is a great replacement for dead forums?" Is all of this really necessary?

Here, we come to a consensus that collaboration between mod authors and those groups/large mods is mutually beneficial (provided authorship is acknowledged, of course). Some gain publicity for their work, while others receive new materials for their mods, and so on. However, in your case, it seems that you initially view those who borrow content as "thieves" and the like, even though that may not actually be the case. That's why I'm writing about the negative perception.

well, here we come to the same conclusion that collaboration between mod authors and other groups/large mods is mutually beneficial (provided that authorship is indicated, of course).

It's good that we have finally come to an obvious conclusion, which I was initially trying to prove.

but, in my opinion, you initially had a negative attitude towards those who borrow, treating them as "thieves" and so on, although in reality this may not be the case. that's why I'm writing about the negativity.

right now, please don't take this as negativity, but what exactly made you think that we have a negative attitude "towards those who borrow" as thieves? where is this specifically written?
such an attitude does exist, but only towards those who take something that belongs to someone else, without indicating that it belongs to someone else, and breaking the connection with the source. and in this case, I agree that such an attitude is justified.

if the borrowing was done on mutually beneficial terms, then not only is there nothing wrong with it, it's actually a good thing, it helps everyone, and I support it.

Added 4 minutes later
the question of why it's worth "complaining" and why everyone should complain together has a very simple answer. because in our community, unfortunately, it is not customary to share links, and "stealing" content is considered a normal thing.

therefore, mutually beneficial collaboration really requires effort on our part.

I don't think I'm the one causing problems; you know very well that I always try to be approachable and resolve situations peacefully. I'm just saying it would be great if I wasn't the only one doing it.

I know, and you're actually quite good at connecting with people, and I also know how difficult and draining it can be. I just got the impression that you have a very "aggressive" attitude.

Many people, including myself, are willing to support and defend this position, but it's not entirely clear how to do it. Simply yelling at people who use other people's materials is a counterproductive solution. It's unlikely that we can influence this on a large scale, but communicating directly with the authors of the projects is a completely different matter.

okay, I initially didn't understand the negative attitude towards 5.5, but that issue has been clarified, and we've moved on.
Regarding "theft," it's clear that it needs to be addressed, but the question is, how? Should all authors unite and create something together? Wouldn't that lead back to a "monopoly"? :) Should we negotiate with everyone about borrowing content? Well, as I see it, many people don't like that format. So, ideally, internal disagreements on such issues should be resolved first.

Well, the conversation is slowly but surely moving in a constructive direction.)))

True, we are still in an inappropriate thread.
Maybe a moderator will forgive us for off-topping and help us with this problem if they have time?
Move our conversation to this thread, for example.
/topic/14858/
If its title were slightly changed, it would be an absolutely ideal thread for discussing such issues.

Just seemed to me that you're in a real "combat" mood.

To be honest, I'm in an exhausted mood.) but when you see some constructive progress happening, you get a bit of strength back.

Many people, myself included, are ready to support and defend this position; it's just not entirely clear how to do it. Simply screaming at people who use others' materials is a counterproductive solution. It's also unlikely that we can influence this on a mass scale, but communicating specifically with project authors is a completely different matter.

Of course "theft" must be fought, the question is how? Should all authors unite and build something common? Does that mean we're coming back to a "monopoly" again?

I have some thoughts and specific action plans regarding this; others still need to be formed and discussed together.


In order

First, about groups.
If you have a good mod that you want to publish? Besides publishing it here on the forum or somewhere of your own, perhaps it's worth contacting the admin of this group. You can reach out directly or through me if you aren't on VK or find it inconvenient.

This is just a simple useful acquaintance that I made for all of us by simply getting in touch with the person and trying to explain my point of view. Everything could have turned out differently and the person could have been not very good, but we got lucky and he turned out to be quite adequate and responsive. It makes sense to publish in his group; it will help him (new content) and us (additional attention, which is actually greater than the main one).

The idea is that nothing stops you from making and sharing similar acquaintances with the community.
It would be very good if we had more than one such acquaintance. In the future, a thread could be started on the forum listing such places whose admins are worth contacting.



Second, about large mods.
Here, everyone needs to change their approach together.
To start with, we need to speak individually with build authors about ensuring that authors of borrowed resources are credited and links to them are provided. Fanaticism is obviously harmful here too, but if we can convince a few authors of large builds to cooperate under such a scheme, it will already be a big victory. This is the right step, but of course, it won't be enough.
There are several problems at once: established unhealthy borrowing rules, half-dead resources, and the ignorance of the typical mod user (although I've met many players who understand how mods are structured and can adjust them for themselves). Making a large mod build ourselves is not an option; there wouldn't be enough time for proper resource production. Forbidding others from using our work, even if it were technically possible, would also be harmful to us.

I have a proposal on how the situation can be changed for the better.
I'll be glad to hear your thoughts on this.
In short, we need to make it so that our resources are so easy to use that anyone could "steal" them.
To achieve this, first, as many people (or at least not significantly fewer) should know about our resources as they do about large projects. Second, the resources must be prepared for work. And third, more people who can take these resources and use them are needed.
I'm saying all this based on how things stand in the Mount & Blade modding community, where there are many well-known people who deal exclusively with producing "free" packs. And where no one is surprised by another build of everything and anything thrown into one pile, and such a build never becomes popular unless it has some unique feature of its own.

Specific plans for this point.
Any small mod (for example, replacing a creature with a new model) should be made in two versions: for users (the creature is replaced by the new model) and for modders (the pack file contains only new resources for the creature and they don't replace anyone).
Naturally, for this scheme to work, resources must be created so that there is no conflict between them (do not replace original game files but create new ones). Ideally, you should also separately record the paths to the new model to make your resource easier for modders to use.
Preventatively, you should write in large letters on the page: "use it to your heart's content, I don't mind." But do this: put a link to my resources inside your mod files, and everyone who wants to play your build should download my original "modder's version of the mod"; it will already work with your mod if you specified the paths correctly. Well, that's the ideal, of course. To start with, it would already be good if build authors got into the habit of at least providing links to the original content and author. And there aren't even that many such authors, after all; everyone can be reasoned with.

It's also unlikely that we can influence this on a mass scale

Only through mass action will it work. If we all together create healthier and more mutually beneficial rules of coexistence. Everything unnecessary and harmful will naturally die out.

okay, I was mostly confused by the initial negative attitude toward 5.5, but that issue has been clarified, moving on.

I might have gotten a bit heated somewhere, I'll admit honestly.
But overall, I don't and didn't have a truly negative attitude.
Dreadknight actually makes a very pleasant impression.

I still don't quite understand what 5.5 is. Even though I spent some time trying to figure it out. As far as I understand, there aren't many visual replacements in the game there. It's primarily a rebalance and the addition of new features. (How they did all this is a mystery to me, because there are such changes that it feels like Footman is telling the truth about someone's source code)
If everything stays as it is and 5.5 doesn't turn into another pile of garbage, I'll only be glad if some users use my resources along with this mod.
If 5.5 wants to put my resources into the body of the mod, I would like it to be done on the mutually beneficial terms described above.

Added after 5 minutes

Besides, don't forget that there is still a small language barrier between us and perhaps there were some misunderstandings between you.

i know english very well)) sometimes)