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6 years ago
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In the old, pre-rebuild SoD, it was standard practice to build Mage Guild in more than 1 town to obtain the necessary spells. In modern SoD with its type of rebuilding, it is assumed that you build (and rebuild) Mage Guild strictly in 1 town. The type of rebuilding in HoT implies, among other things, a certain return to roots. You rebuilt Fly into Dimension Door, Resurrection into Town Portal, and then panic because there's nowhere to get Fly and Resurrection? Then go build Mage Guild in another town; who's stopping you. It is just that no one has reached such "senility" yet (myself included).
In reply to MerlinTheMagician
6 years ago
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MerlinTheMagician

Could you provide a link to the statistics?
I just saw the opposite in the CIS example – that SoD players are willing to play a full mix of versions, while HotA players are "taking a stand."
Here, I relied on my own opinion; I may be wrong, of course. But, for example, in the current Armageddon tournament, many players have switched from SoD to HotA and are playing it.

Added 3 minutes later
sir Davos Seaworth
In a sectarian way, this means declaring, "SoD is dead," "let's only play HotA, and we'll ban SoD tournaments."
No one is trying to ban HotA; play it as much as you want. Just don't artificially try to impose it on others who are simply not interested in it.
Well, I don't share this point of view either. SoD will be dead when no one plays it anymore. For now, it's still alive, it has just lost its position. As for why this happened, each player has their own point of view, and there's no point in fans of one version throwing mud at fans of the other
In reply to Iamsamstan
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6 years ago
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They buried the SOD, ripped apart two maps; no, I will never play this crap again.
In reply to =Lizard=
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6 years ago
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=Lizard=
You rebuilt the Fly spell into a DD spell, and the Resurrect spell into a TP spell, and now you're freaking out because you have nowhere to get Fly and Resurrect? Then go build a GM in another city, what's stopping you? But no one has reached such a "level of absurdity" yet (including me).

In a couple of games, I tried to get a powerful spell/berserk and some kind of summon. But it rarely works: it's dangerous to build, and there aren't enough resources for that.
In reply to MerlinTheMagician
6 years ago
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MerlinTheMagician
Is it possible to delete any artifacts using the template editor?
You can not only delete them, but also restore the red orb.
In reply to Wicc
6 years ago
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Wicc
Just passing by, couldn't resist leaving a comment :)

In my opinion, all the problems with SoD (Stronghold of the Dragons) are solely related to the activities of guys like Sir Davos over the past 15 years.

How many times have suggestions been made on how to streamline and improve SoD... there have been countless attempts. And they continue to be made.

But the stubbornness of the conservatives was impenetrable, and as a result, alternative versions of Heroes began to proliferate.

The outcome is inevitable.

History always teaches, and most Heroes 3 fans are conservatives themselves, otherwise they wouldn't be playing a game from the 20th century. This is quite logical, just like in HotA (Horn of the Abyss), where for years there has been talk about nerfing Ghosts and Guilds, but what prevents the ardent HotA revolutionaries from doing it now? Is it conservatism again?
6 years ago
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A year ago, they started massively recruiting harpies; for about six months now, they've been recruiting all sorts of creatures, which started to annoy everyone. So, it's not just for a year. There will be changes in the end.
In reply to kamukag3e
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6 years ago
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@kamukag3e, I understand what Wicc is saying, but perhaps it's worth simply calling things by their names, at least that's what I try to do. SoD (or rather, Complete) cannot be changed; the most that can be done is what was done in the HD mod. However, creating a game based on the original Heroes 3 is possible. And, naturally, it could be significantly better than the original. The extent of the changes can vary – from a global modification to small improvements/innovations to taste. But this is no longer Complete; it's TE, WT, HotA... and there aren't many popular mods that would only make small changes. This is understandable – if the authors have significantly reworked the game, then there is, as it were, a moral right to the resulting new game, but if there are few changes, then it seems like there isn't – there is no moral right. And then, if you've already started making some small changes, it's difficult to stop – you want to improve and improve... and then, indeed, what is this SoD that you end up with? So, it turns out that it's either a serious modification or almost a vanilla SoD.
In reply to Ben80
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6 years ago
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kamukag3e
History always teaches, and most fans of Heroes 3 are conservatives themselves; otherwise, they wouldn't be playing a game from the 20th century.
Ben80
But making a game based on the original Heroes 3 is possible. Which, naturally, would be much better than the original in many ways. The degree of changes can vary – from a global modification to small improvements/innovations to taste. But this is no longer Complete, but TE, WT, HotA... and there are not many popular mods that would only make small changes.
Which is understandable – if the authors have significantly reworked the game, then there is a kind of moral right to the resulting new game, but if there are few changes, then it seems that there is no moral right.
And then, if you have already started making some small changes, it is difficult to stop further – you want to improve and improve... and then, indeed, what kind of SoD is it, what you get in the end.
So it turns out that either a serious modification or an almost vanilla SoD.
This logic is fundamentally wrong.

In 1998-99, several excellent online games appeared at once, which are still being played today. Besides Heroes 3, these include Quake 3, Counter-Strike, and Starcraft.

And, for example, in Q3 and CS, the question of the original's canonicity never arose – in the initial versions from 1999, they played for the first couple of years, then switched to tournament modifications, and then to sequels with different gameplay. These games, in the course of their evolution, have undergone at least one full remaster (maybe more, I don't follow), and countless balancing changes have been made.

With Starcraft, it was a little more conservative, but even there, tournament mods firmly entered the practice closer to the end of the 2000s, and then Blizzard made a full remaster. True, the game balance was not changed there either, but only because it is excellent and does not require changes. If it did, they would have changed it without any problems.

A similar story was with Age of Empires 2 (also the late 90s), I don't know myself, but Sticky described it – there too, over time, a tournament mod appeared with balancing gameplay changes.

Everywhere, the general principle was the same – the truest version is not the canon from 1999, but the version that is adopted in sports competitions.

And almost no one complained that this was not true, that you had to play the canonical version, and not self-made mods by unofficial developers.

Heroes 3 should have followed the same path. And then TE, WT, and Hota would not have been needed. But history went a different way...
6 years ago
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It's hard to argue with someone who has their own correct opinion on any issue. We weren't talking about the development of Heroes 3, but about the conservatism of the Heroes community regarding new features. The example you mentioned about the voting process proves this, even though they still made changes to the game. The issue isn't about solving a problem or introducing a new feature, but about the approach; the Heroes community will always be conservative, no matter how many polls they create.
In reply to Wicc
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6 years ago
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Wicc


And, for example, in Quake III and Counter-Strike, the question of the original's canonicity never arose – people played the original versions from 1999 for the first couple of years, then switched to tournament modifications, and then to sequels with different gameplay. These games underwent at least one full remaster (maybe even more, I don't keep track) during their evolution, and countless balancing changes were made.
...
The same path should have been taken with Heroes 3. Then, neither TE, nor WoG, nor HotA would have been needed. But history took a different turn...

If you believe that Quake III and Counter-Strike, which were heavily modified, can still be considered the same Quake III and Counter-Strike, only "improved," what prevents you from considering WoG or HotA as "improved SoD"? And if that's the case, then why do you need an "enhanced SoD"?

I, of course, don't think so, because the logic tells me that a modified game is already a somewhat different game, which, accordingly, should have a different name. Not completely different, of course, but some significant new identifier should be used – "WoG," "HotA."
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6 years ago
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No matter how hard I tried to force myself to switch to Haven, it only made me want to delete the game. Of course, I would try playing Haven without a dock and at least without any creatures of level 7. It would be great if it were possible to comfortably disable the new features.
It would also be nice to replace the unit images with the original ones; maybe I could even try to do it myself if it's possible.
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6 years ago
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it's just old age. The ability to step outside of one's comfort zone and learn new things decreases with each passing year.
In reply to kamukag3e
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6 years ago
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kamukag3e
It’s hard to argue with someone who has their own correct opinion on any issue.
So, there’s no need to argue. I bring the light of truth, and it’s up to you to accept it.
We weren’t talking about the development of Heroes 3, but about the conservatism of Heroes fans regarding new features. The example you mentioned about the voting proves this, especially since they still restructured the game map. The issue isn’t about solving a problem or introducing something new, but about the approach. Heroes fans will always be conservative about any issue, no matter how many polls they create.


Added 5 minutes later
Ben80
If you believe that Q3 and CS, which were heavily modified, can still be considered the same Q3 and CS, only “improved,” what prevents you from considering WT or HotA as “improved SoD”? And if that’s the case, then why do you need an “enhanced SoD”?

I, of course, don’t think so, because the logic tells me that a modified game is already a somewhat different game, which should, accordingly, have a different name. Not completely different, of course, but some significant new identifier should be used – “WT,” “HotA.”
It doesn’t matter what you call it. Words are just words. Life doesn’t hit you based on your political views, but on your head.
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6 years ago
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That's exactly it – words are just words. In reality, an "improved SOD" has already been "created" multiple times, but for various reasons, not everyone is satisfied with the created versions. Some simply don't like certain individual aspects, while others may not like the inability to influence the process of creating fixes/innovations. As far as I understand, both WT and HotA were created by small teams, with the assistance of tournament players. But – no matter how you look at it, these are just separate groups of people (and it can't be any other way). Therefore, neither a truly improved SOD nor a truly proper expansion can be created. The only thing that is "real" is what NWC did, and this is the main reason for the "mysterious" conservatism of many players. Personally, although I enjoy tinkering with my own software additions to Heroes 3, I still get a special kind of pleasure when I launch the original Heroes, installed from the disc. I suspect that I am not the only one. Although, of course, there are fewer of us.

By the way, teams working on an impressive list of changes to Heroes 3 may even find it easier to reach an agreement ("once the head is off, there's no need to worry about the hair"), while those who want only a few small changes find it more difficult, as everyone has different tastes, and each considers themselves to be more "orthodox," better understanding what a true SOD is and what changes will not "destroy" it.

An approach based on options (or a collection of disableable plugins) also does not solve the problem – because you still have to agree on which options to play with, and in the end, the options "settle" into a predetermined set – reflecting the opinion of, again, only some specific group of people.

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