Jebus King template (old theme) — Tournament History

=Lizard=

7 years ago

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I'll say it again for the millionth time: we remove one overpowered element, make another even more overpowered, and so on, endlessly. For example: we remove boots and gloves, thereby increasing the value of the Logistics skill. If we remove Logistics as well, we'll further increase the overpoweredness of mages, for whom it's rarely useful, and so on. All of this has been tried and tested in World of Warcraft. The pursuit of balance destroys balance. This isn't about mirroring, but rather, simply removing certain objects/skills/artifacts, etc., is pointless. The only thing I can agree with is that capturing workshops using common strategies has absolutely no relation to skill.

Xocenk

7 years ago

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The Factories need to be fixed in HotA. Right now, strategies have been found to capture the ninth Factory quickly, without relying on Morale. That is, any hero (even without Lore) can capture a maximum-level Factory on level 111 by simply exploring any land except snow. The time spent capturing it is irrelevant! On level 111, you get 4 Giants for free, without spending any mana or troops, and they are upgraded to level 5. Nodl has already recorded such a capture in 13 minutes, which fits within any starting timer and battle limit that they come up with (this won't solve the problem).

Watching this brilliant gameplay on streams is just enjoyable. It's hard to imagine anything more boring. If the HotA developers don't see the problem themselves (they decided to ignore it for several years, like with Jeremy, apparently), they should at least ban this nonsense from show tournaments (with streams).

How to adequately change the Factory was discussed earlier in separate threads, and several reasonable options were proposed. It would cost the developers nothing to make these changes. There is no spirit of the original Heroes here; you invented the Factory, and there is nothing to preserve.

Puzzz0

7 years ago

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Speaking of mines. There's an idea to add a randomly generated landscape inside this object. Considering the wide variety of mountain generation, each mine capture will be different from the previous one. Besides that, capturing it will become impossible at speeds 9-10. For example, on an info map, I barely managed to micro 70 iron golems, and not without losses (due to the terrain, some golems managed to go around the mountain, while others didn't, sometimes resulting in a situation where they were all spread out and reached any point).
In other words, with such a fix, it won't be possible to get a convenient construction squad here, no matter how hard you try.
But yes, I didn't take into account many factors (for example, how it will look with several filled stacks), how much more difficult the capture will become for a regular army, and most importantly, what is the complexity of the technical implementation(?).

However, as it seems to me, such a change would fit perfectly into the game, and this addition would not break the canons of the classic game.

In reply to Puzzz0

saneok

7 years ago

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Puzzz0

Speaking of mines. I have an idea to add a randomly generated landscape inside this object. Considering the wide variety of mountain generation, each capture of a mine will be different from the previous one. In addition, at speeds 9-10, capturing it will already be impossible. For example, on the Information Earth, I barely managed to micro-manage 70 iron golems, and not without losses (due to the terrain, some golems managed to go around the mountain, while others didn't, and sometimes the situation was such that they were all scattered and reached any point).
In other words, with such a fix, it will not be possible to get a convenient construction squad here, no matter how hard you try.
But yes, I didn't take into account many factors (for example, how it will look with several filled stacks), how much more difficult the capture will become for an ordinary army, and most importantly, what is the complexity of the technical implementation(?).

However, as it seems to me, such a change will fit perfectly into the game, and this addition will not break the canons of the classic game.

then we will come up with a capture strategy for each terrain

In reply to saneok

Dirty_Player

7 years ago

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The fatter the template, the more the road junction starts to matter; it's no longer about the objects themselves, but about more convenient access to them. Color also starts to play a bigger role, but there's nothing you can do about the color except negotiate. As for the workshops, the problem certainly exists, but not on this template. If you fix the workshops, it needs to be done globally: either by replacing the golems with some other tower creatures (perhaps gr. gargoyle), or by a complete overhaul, replacing them with creatures and rewards from the new Factory town (which would fit aesthetically). P.S.: In general, to achieve perfect balance on this template, it is vitally important to bring back the ivory towers into the game! :cool:

In reply to Xocenk

Sav

7 years ago

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Xocenk

As was previously discussed in separate threads, several viable options were proposed for adequately changing the Factory.

No, there weren't. In that same thread, after suggestions were made to change the speed or arrangement, it was rightly noted that they would likely still find a way to take it, but it would be even more difficult and convoluted. So, the viability of these options still needs to be proven, which is quite challenging.

Perhaps a radical option will be implemented: mandatory retreat for the attacker after 100 (or another number) rounds of combat (in any combat). This would also solve the problem of a draw in a "handcuffs" situation in a battle between players.

In reply to Sav

ffoolabezlp

7 years ago

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Sav

Perhaps a radical option will be implemented: the attacking unit is forced to retreat after 100 (or another number) rounds of combat (any combat at all). This will also solve the problem of a stalemate in a "handcuff" situation in a battle between players.

I see several ways the defending player could abuse this feature in the final version.

In reply to ffoolabezlp

Sinot

7 years ago

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What's wrong with the simple solution of having snow always present in the workshops? And golems would then move with +1 speed.

In reply to Sav

ЯR

7 years ago

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Sav

Perhaps a radical option will be implemented: a mandatory retreat for the attacker after 100 (or another number) rounds of combat (any combat at all). This will also solve the problem of a stalemate in a "handcuff" situation in a battle between players.

This is not a radical option, but the most reasonable one for online games.

=Lizard=

7 years ago

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Sanya will have to come up with a strategy to capture the Factory in 99 rounds.

In reply to Sinot

Sevan_80

7 years ago

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Sinot

What's wrong with the simple option of having snow in the workshops all the time? And golems would run with +1 speed accordingly.

+++
and in Pogost, there's mud, etc.

In reply to ffoolabezlp

Sav

7 years ago

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ffoolabezlp

I see several ways to abuse this feature in the final stage of the game by the defending player.

It would be worth listing them. For now, I only see abusing blindness/berserk/hypnosis on a hero with a lot of spell points/mana, but without an army. The defending player blinds/... the attacking player until they have to retreat/bribe. But it doesn't seem like something that is impossible to protect against, especially since the attacker chooses the formation, and heroes with mana are dangerous anyway.

Sinot

And what's wrong with the simple option that there is always snow in the workshops?
and golems accordingly run with +1 speed.

It was mentioned above. Most likely, they will come up with a way to take it, even for this option. If you can prove that this is impossible, it would be interesting to hear.

In reply to Sav

Xocenk

7 years ago

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Single-hex units with a speed of 6 and neutral morale (which isn't that important due to artifacts that reduce morale) already exist in the game in the Crimson Tower. Is it taken by harpies?

There was also the option of changing it to 6 stacks, like in the Necropolis. Or are there any ideas about taking some single units for distraction, and then taking it?

saneok

7 years ago

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On speed 9, taking the Red Tower is almost impossible, but on speed 10, I think it's possible.

=Lizard=

7 years ago

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This topic has been extensively discussed in the forums when playing as Laura. Even she struggles to maneuver units with 6+ speed (unless the terrain is exceptionally favorable, which is impossible in dungeons), as the map is only 14 squares long, making the math straightforward. Perhaps with a Devil and 6 units, waiting for morale boosts might work, but I haven't tried it, and it would be quite a stretch. So, having snow in the dungeon is always a good option.

Added 1 minute ago

saneok