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Couldn't you somehow add a different AI that would play like experienced players? Have the people who are making the HD-mod and HotA thought about this?
It's probably as simple as tightening a bolt, right? :D Just take it and tighten it :D He said it as if it were a two-minute job. :smile15:
Couldn't you somehow add a different AI that would play like a seasoned player? Have the people making the HD mod and HotA thought about this?
Something real and relatively simple that could be done today is to enhance the AI through additional "AI cheats." As a reminder, the NWC AI cheats included increased income by a certain multiplier, Flight if Water Walking is available, a town portal even on cursed lands, the ability to escape from battle outside of its turn, etc.
Some additional cheats were introduced in the Master of Puppets mod. The mod itself is far from classic, but the specific additional cheats are actually quite in line with the original game.
It's not that difficult to adjust the cheats so that the AI players are competitive with humans. The community has been playing "poor Heroes" for the second decade now – the main opponent (besides the human player) is the stationary monsters on the map, resignedly awaiting their fate. The game's potential is, of course, much greater than that. After all, it's much more interesting to fight "monsters running around the map" (and even using magic).
This is probably as easy as tightening a nut, right? :D Just take it and tighten it. :D He said it as if it's a two-minute job. :smile15:
Well, I didn't claim it was easy. But creating Hota, for example, isn't a quick task either.
It would be interesting to see how DeepMind's Alpha, which has already mastered several games, would play. Will it play like a pro, or will we see some new and interesting strategies? :)
Added 6 minutes later Ben80
Something real and not too complicated that could be done today is enhancing the AI with additional "AI cheats." I'll remind you of the NWC AI cheats: income increased by a certain factor, Flight if there's Walk on Water, a town portal even on cursed land, the ability to escape from battle on a turn that isn't its own, etc.
Some additional cheats were introduced in the Master of Puppets mod. The mod itself is far from classic, but the specific additional cheats are actually quite in the spirit of the original game.
It's not that difficult to adjust the cheats so that AI players are competitive with humans. The community has been playing "poor Heroes" for the second decade now – the main opponent (besides the human opponent) is the stationary monsters on the map, resignedly awaiting their fate. The game's potential is, of course, much greater than that. It's much more interesting to fight "monsters running around the map" (and even using magic).
I don't think cheats will significantly strengthen the computer. No, of course, you can cheat and give it 500 Archdevils, but the outcome of such games is obvious anyway. What good is a maphack to it if it doesn't even dare to attack a nest right under its nose, miscalculating the outcome of the battle?
The AI's weakness lies in its strategy and tactics. It doesn't seem to build chains, doesn't strive to clear all valuable objects in the area as quickly as possible, usually doesn't have a main hero, and probably doesn't understand which artifacts are best to use in which case, which spells to use in battle, and so on.
Neutrals usually guard something, so at least some of the neutrals need to be left stationary. Although it would be fun if neutrals could attack the hero. And some neutrals use magic (Wizards, Faeries).
And regarding Flight, Teleport, and Dimension Door – do they even use them? I haven't noticed.
Creating a full-fledged AI is both very cool and, on the other hand, perhaps not something anyone really needs. In any case, no chess players are particularly eager to play against Alpha. And chess fans are still much more interested in watching games between humans than against Alpha.
Therefore, perhaps it is still more promising to simply use new AI cheats (and treat the AI player as nothing more than a "running monster") rather than trying to present the AI player as a real player and a full-fledged competitor.
Added 4 minutes ago MichaelWeb
I don't think cheats will significantly strengthen the computer. Well, of course, you can give it 500 Archons, but the outcome of such games is obvious anyway.
According to my analysis, there is no need for 500 Archons. A moderate push in the right direction is enough for the AI to be a formidable force. MichaelWeb
The weakness of the AI lies in strategy and tactics. It doesn't seem to build chains, doesn't strive to clear all valuable objects in the area as quickly as possible, usually doesn't have a hero, and probably doesn't understand which artifacts are best to use in which case, which spells to use in battle, and so on.
You want to present it as a full-fledged player. Maybe someone shares your desire. Then it is difficult to disagree with what you said. But in order for the AI to be simply a strong "running monster" that can easily crush the player, advanced algorithms are not necessary. Whatever the players say, I have a fairly high opinion of how NWC made the AI. It's not that bad.
Added 3 minutes ago MichaelWeb
Neutrals usually guard something, so at least some of the neutrals need to be kept stationary. Although it would be fun if neutrals could attack the hero. And some neutrals use magic (Wizards, sprites).
No, I'm not talking about that. Not about the neutrals on the map. I just used the figurative expression "running monster." After all, the AI algorithms for neutrals and the AI player are not different.
It would be interesting to see how DeepMind's Alpha would play, considering it has already mastered several games.
It won't play. Because no one will do it. Have you seen the development team? The number of people involved. And this isn't an open-source project. They need to be paid. Imagine how much money it would take to support them. Besides, Heroes isn't a game that will bring worldwide recognition and fame, even if the AI performs well in it. MichaelWeb
The weakness of AI lies in strategy and tactics. It doesn't seem to build chains, doesn't strive to clear all valuable objects in the area as quickly as possible, usually doesn't have a main hero, and probably doesn't understand which artifacts are best to use in which case, which spells to use in battle, and so on.
Creating a full-fledged AI is both very cool and, on the other hand, perhaps not really needed by anyone. In any case, none of the chess players are eager to play against Alpha. And chess enthusiasts are still much more interested in watching matches between people, not Alphas.
Therefore, perhaps it is still more promising to simply use new AI cheats (and treat the AI player as nothing more than a "running monster") rather than trying to present the AI player as a real player and a full-fledged competitor.
Added 4 minutes ago
According to my analysis, there is no need for 500 archers. A moderate push in the right direction is enough for the AI to be a formidable force.
You want to present it as a full-fledged player. Maybe someone shares your desire. Then it is difficult to disagree with what you said. But in order for the AI to simply be a strong "running monster" that can easily defeat a player, advanced algorithms are not necessary. Whatever the players say, I have a fairly high opinion of how NWC made the AI. It's not that bad.
Added 3 minutes ago
No, I'm not talking about that. Not about the neutrals on the map. I just used the figurative expression "running monster". After all, the AI algorithms for neutrals and the AI player are not different.
Yeah, so you tested this? Did you give the AI cheats and see how the difficulty of the game against it changes?
The community has been playing "poor Heroes" for almost two decades now – the main opponent (besides another player) is stationary monsters on the map, resignedly awaiting their fate.
As a viewer, I would like to see more diverse battles with monsters. Most online battles are: our army vs stacks of the same creatures (50 gnomes with an upgraded stack, as an example).
A turning point in strategic approaches could be achieved if players had to engage in less conventional battles such as: our army vs three stacks of one efreet each, one stack of wizards, and one stack of dendroids.
I don't know what format this could be implemented in. As an option, introduce garrisons whose monster type is not fixed and depends on the size of the garrison itself. This creates something like a mini treasure zone at a respawn or replaces the boring Dragon Utopia. The battle for access to the center could also involve breaking through a garrison. There is even an additional plus here - it immediately becomes clear what needs to be broken through to reach the center + the possibility of leaving troops in the garrison, which also provides room for maneuver.
I am sure there are many drawbacks as well. But these need to be addressed sequentially.
Ah, so you tested this? Did you give the AI cheats and see how the game's difficulty against it changes?
If you want, I can give you the opportunity to test it yourself. The cost would be a few days, perhaps. I'll release the plugin. I can even not tell you in advance which cheats were applied; you could compare your assumptions after testing with what actually happened.
Ben80If you want, I can give you the opportunity to test it yourselves. It would probably take a few days. I'll release the plugin. I could even avoid telling you in advance which cheats were applied; then you could compare your assumptions after testing with what actually happened. Well, I have no reason not to trust you in this case, I'm just curious if you personally tested it.
In any case, for now I'm only playing against the map.
For example, on 6lm10a what timings should one strive for? It seems to me that this template is much poorer than Jebus Cross; you can't take Dragon Utopia on 122 here. And in general, there seem to be far fewer objects overall.
As a viewer, I would like to see more diverse battles with monsters. Most online battles are: our army vs stacks of the same creatures (50 dwarves with an upgraded stack, for example).
A turning point in strategic approaches could be if the player had to more frequently engage in unconventional battles such as: our army vs three stacks of efreets with one unit in each, one stack of Wizard and one stack of dendroids.
I don't know in what format this could be implemented. As an option - the introduction of garrisons, where the monster type is not fixed and depends on the size of the contents behind the garrison. It would be like a mini treasure zone on a respawn or a replacement for a dull Dragon Utopia. The battle to reach the center could also involve breaking through a garrison. There's even an additional plus here - it's immediately clear what needs to be broken through to exit to the center + the ability to leave troops in the garrison, which also provides room for maneuver.
I'm sure there are plenty of downsides too. But those would need to be addressed in turn.
I am also all for strengthening the computers.
This is not for online games, because in online play, the player's goal is to build up and squeeze the maximum out of the respawn + break into treasure zones as early as possible and have the ability to clear them. Battles with monsters here are merely obstacles on the path to the goal that the player must overcome. This is exactly where the ability to fight battles with a starting army at the beginning of the game can be very helpful, and similarly, ГО is broken through by an army much weaker than this ГО. If ГО plays using the same tactics as a human - well, who would play that and why? That's not what the essence of the game is about. Ben80
Creating a full-fledged AI is, on one hand, very cool, but on the other - perhaps nobody really needs it. In any case, none of the chess players are burning with desire to play against Alpha. And for chess lovers, it's still much more interesting to watch games between people than Alphas.
The computer never surrenders. In a game against a live opponent, players have an approximate plan for the game, what to do on a particular template, and there are criteria for victory/defeat. But computers play until the very end, so even after teaching the AI the tactics of real players, such games will not be comparable + games against several computers will become meaningless, because finals are designed with the probability of winning even after losing most of the army. In a game against AI, except for 1x1, you cannot afford to lose your army.
This isn't intended for online games because in online play, the player's goal is to level up and maximize their gains from the respawn point, as well as to reach treasure zones as quickly as possible and have the ability to clear them. Battles with monsters are just an obstacle on the way to the goal, which the player must overcome. Here, the ability to win battles with a starting army at the beginning of the game can be very helpful, as well as clearing a Guardian of Order (GO) with an army that is much weaker than the GO itself. If the GO plays using the same tactics as a human player, who would play such a game and why? The essence of the game is not about that.
You misunderstood me. The point is to make battles with monsters more diverse. I'm just tired of watching the same thing 10,500 times: taking Utopias, clearing Conservatories, and breaking through the same Guardian of Order (GO). This doesn't mean that reaching the GO will be slowed down or that the confrontation with the opponent will take a backseat. The key message is diversity in battles.
You misunderstood me. The point is to make battles with monsters more diverse. I'm just tired of seeing the same thing 10,500 times: capturing utopias, clearing out resource nodes, and fighting the same Guardians. This doesn't mean that reaching the Guardians will be slowed down or that confrontation with the opponent will take a backseat. The key message is diversity in battles.
I understand your idea; I just pointed out that interesting battles could add variety to the offline game, especially on custom maps, although there are already many interesting battles, events, and mechanics on them. However, online, this would increase randomness and worsen the chances with relatively poor starting conditions, because the ability to conduct routine battles with minimal losses due to knowledge of AI behavior is an important part of players' skills. If something is changed here, the pace will slow down, and fewer games will be playable, which is not good. In general, many games boil down to the ability to overcome the disadvantages of game randomness by making the right strategic decisions + the ability to conduct battles, and this change will significantly alter this balance in favor of greater randomness.
makshaker
7 years ago
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Good day! Can anyone help me? In the Trilogy of Shadows campaign, mission 3, there's a quest to "kill the hero Zoratur." How do I get to this guy? Thanks.
Marmot
7 years ago
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Could you share your save file with us? We would like to analyze your situation.
I downloaded this campaign, but I haven't played it yet.
I extracted the third map from the campaign using an editor and started playing it as a single map. I created a save file, opened it with Prospector. The hero Zoratur is initially located at cell 46,10,0. He is not restricted by the range of action and could go anywhere, even disappear, especially if all his cities were captured.
makshaker
7 years ago
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Dear Marmot, thank you for trying to help, I've already figured it out. There are some bizarre tricks with changing the appearance of objects again. This hero is located on a small island surrounded by water that looks like lava, and you need to reach him using the spell for walking on water, which is given as part of the quest. Thank you again.
