Posts from Discussions, post-mortems, analysis, inflated egos, and all that jazz.

Why are you getting so worked up about it, you pathetic imperialist? You won't get anything out of it anyway, except for a "feeling of importance and involvement":D

You still don't understand or haven't noticed. I don't care about all these pseudo-historical twists and turns and juggling of definitions. I repeat, I don't care about all this conditional division of the Earth by bipedal parasites. Once again, humanity in its current form must be eliminated, and the planet must be populated by a corrected, intelligent race that takes into account current mistakes, and which will stop destroying the planet and self-destructing. :smile17:
But that's no longer our area of expertise.

You still don't understand or haven't noticed. I don't care about all these pseudo-historical twists and turns and juggling of definitions. I repeat, I don't care about all this conditional division of the Earth by bipedal parasites. Once again, humanity in its current form must be eliminated, and the planet must be populated by a corrected, taking into account current mistakes, intelligent race that will stop destroying the planet and self-destruction. :smile17:
But this is no longer within our competence.

More additions again) Well, okay, this view of life is more interesting, I don't deny it. I'm also tired, but I'm not leaving yet.

Merlin, are you saying that it would be right to eliminate even those who aren't actively destroying the planet and engaging in self-destruction?

the country you live in is as old as Ukraine

The Russian Federation is the successor to the USSR, having taken over its debts (up to $120 billion, according to various sources) and obligations under all treaties, as well as the burdens of the status of a nuclear superpower, so don't compare them.

Russia began with the Moscow state

The Moscow state is the direct heir to the entire patchwork of Orthodox principalities of ancient Rus', including Kyiv, from where the Patriarch of All Rus' moved to the forests (and at that time, statehood with all its nascent modern institutions was based precisely in the church).

Statehood is not a piece of land, nor is it the mythical "people" or "nation" - it is management and logistics. Moscow was located in a favorable area at the watershed of three river basins, from where both Eastern Europe, the south, and the east were controlled, plus it was further away from the Horde, which is why the new center of Rus' emerged here after the devastation of Kyiv.

the first mentions of Ukraine date back to the 12th century

- mentions as a territory, not as a state. In general, there were many Ukrainians; this term denoted something that was "at the edge," since there were no borders in the modern sense before, but rather there were only borderlands - either disputed territories or undeveloped ones.

I anticipate: "kraina" is a little different. Both words come from "krayati" - to cut the skin (most likely, the primary sound was "kr-r-r" - when you cut it with a knife).
Krai is an area where the "commodity part of the skin" of the state ends and the "scraps" begin.
Ukraina is an area on both sides of the edge, i.e., including both the area of civilization and undeveloped places.
The "kraina" common in Eastern Europe denotes the result of "cutting up" the land, i.e., establishing borders on all sides.

Wow... Nostalgia... Let's get started! :D

Merlin, do you think it's right to eliminate even those who aren't actively destroying the planet and engaging in self-destruction?

If something like that happens – and the planet has a whole set of tools to shake off the parasitic mass of bipeds – then so be it, it can't get any worse.
This is precisely the situation where the majority determines the future for everyone.
At the same time, self-destruction is understood not only as obvious things like alcohol, drugs, war, and violence. It also includes what some religions call "deadly sins." And in this context, among my acquaintances (and I am no exception) – there isn't a single person who isn't engaged in destroying the planet and self-destruction, except perhaps children up to a certain age, and even then, with the development and spread of various gadgets and the imitation of older people's behavior, they also start down that path much earlier.

I came here to create questions for a quiz, and there's such great food here... :) I remember reading an article where the authors studied changes in animal behavior under the influence of hunger. The general scheme is as follows: under the influence of hunger, certain hormones are released into the animal's blood, which change its behavior: - The animal's pain threshold increases, and pain sensitivity decreases. - The animal becomes more risky and may even attack a stronger opponent. - The animal begins to solve simple puzzles better but struggles with complex ones; that is, its brain analyzes the situation faster but less deeply. - The animal becomes more aggressive, not only towards predators but also towards its own kind. These changes in behavior serve two purposes: either to increase the size of the food base through external expansion or to reduce the population through intraspecific violence. Humans, although more developed than animals, have inherited these hormonal mechanisms from their wild ancestors. Therefore, in conditions of hunger (in conditions of dissatisfaction with their material situation), they tend to behave similarly. Usually, this manifests either in a desire to fight an external enemy (expand the food base) or in a desire to fight an internal enemy (reduce the population size). And since humans are social beings and perceive war as a team sport, they first look for a team. In external warfare, the team is obvious - "us" versus "them," but in civil war, a dividing line must be drawn - for example, blacks versus whites, Catholics versus Protestants, peasants and workers versus landowners and capitalists, etc. Various ideologies are needed solely for this - to justify the composition of the team and indicate the criteria for belonging to it. And it doesn't matter how scientific this ideology is; it can be complete nonsense from a scientific point of view, but if it performs the function mentioned above, it becomes quite suitable for practical use. And, of course, it should not be too complex because the brain of a hungry person does not like long logical arguments; it prefers simpler slogans - "who to eliminate." Therefore, in the case of civil war, it is useless to explain to its participants that they have become victims of propaganda and are fighting "for the wrong thing." They are fighting very much "for something" - for clearing living space, whatever ideological justification is used for it. I heard the slogan: "We need the lands of Donbas, not its population" - it is crystal clear, and that is the whole point; civil wars usually have approximately this genesis. And if they are not interfered with, they are usually quite long and bloody, accompanied by genocide of certain social groups and their dehumanization ("subhumans," "colorados," etc.) to remove the psychological barrier to violence. So, solving the problems of Ukraine is very simple - you need to feed it; then 99% of the population will immediately forget about the centuries-long oppression by the Poles and Russians and everything else that they are currently being fed with. It's just expensive - Ukraine is large, and its neighbors have their own economic difficulties. An alternative is that if the war in Donbas had turned into a tank march on Kyiv (as the militants initially wanted) and escalated into a large-scale conflict with millions of casualties, this would have relieved social tension. In this regard, yes, Putin is greatly hindering the "development" of Ukraine by freezing all kinds of military activity and not allowing it to "have fun" and reduce the population to match the size of the food base.

If something like that happens – and the planet has a whole set of tools...

Ah... Well, if you mean that the planet will be the one doing the shaking, then there's no problem. These people will come to an agreement with the planet.

Oh, the civil war in Ukraine has arrived:D
A tank march of miners towards Kyiv:D

When I was reading this, I initially thought it was about famine in Russia, but it didn't quite fit, and it turns out that's what it is:D
A starving Ukraine?:D
Where do they raise people like you?:D
Come here, and I'll show you a starving Ukraine, you'll be amazed, you miserable zombie. Sound businesses have migrated to Kyiv, Lviv, Odesa, and Dnipro, and they're spending money here. The bars and restaurants are packed with hungry Ukrainians in the evenings, and impoverished Ukrainians are queuing up for cars in car dealerships, construction is booming, real estate prices are rising again, the currency is devaluing by no more than 10% per year, and GDP is growing.

Stop fantasizing. Ukrainians have never starved without external factors. They don't sit on a stump waiting for something big to happen, and they can even afford to donate to the army.

It's the hungry Buryats who are coming here, who have nothing to do in the village except become little green men. They came, and they will keep coming. You've described the famine correctly, but your conclusions are wrong. There are hundreds of photos and videos proving the presence of foreign forces and equipment that doesn't belong to us. Stop sleeping and fantasizing.

A tank march of miners towards Kyiv:D Sorry, but this is no longer just strange; it reeks of schizophrenia. Did you even study military science at university? Do you know what logistical support is? What technical and material support is? What is the organization of interaction between units and subunits?

Added 15 minutes ago
In Ukraine, the majority of those who are starving are pensioners and Soviet-era people who are used to not working hard, relying only on the state, and waiting for manna from heaven. And these are such hardened Soviet-era people, descendants of those brought here a hundred years ago, who will sit around and defend the USSR to the death. The very USSR that they toiled for their whole lives and which cheated them out of their savings and pensions. You can help them as the legal successors of the USSR, or you can take them and stop bothering them.
Among all my Ukrainian acquaintances, no one is starving, and pensioners are helped by their children. They go to Poland because they are paid more there, and here, due to the outflow of personnel, salaries are starting to rise, and there is a huge shortage of qualified personnel. But I notice a phenomenon: the children of Soviet-era people don't want to learn and develop. Even if they have a secondary or higher education, they still end up as loaders, security guards, general laborers, cashiers, etc. They work, eat, watch TV, relieve themselves, and sleep. That's the level! A perfect animal. No initiative and no desire to earn more, because that would require effort. Of course, you can't build anything with people like that.

Added 10 minutes ago
MEO, I've already told you that I don't respond to the conclusions of broken minds. Your collection of letters, not even words, is intended to reinforce the "cotton wool" mentality, but not for me. Don't quote me; I have nothing to say to you. Your language is not accessible to me.

Read what is written more carefully:

Therefore, in conditions of hunger (in conditions of dissatisfaction with one's material situation), it is prone to behave in a similar way.

As a more developed being, a person has other needs besides purely nutritional ones, and when these are not satisfied, it activates the behavioral program described above.

I hope you won't claim that the majority of the population of Ukraine is satisfied with their material situation?

I don't know how capable you are of looking inward, but from the outside it is clear that you are in an altered state of consciousness, and political issues cause you a kind of animalistic rage. This is exactly how that mechanism I described above works. If you were given a gun/axe/red button, you would gladly go and kill vatniks, Soviets, etc.

You are clearly manipulating. Dissatisfaction with one's material situation is inherent in human nature, and it is often triggered by external factors to achieve specific goals. A well-fed American is, on average, less satisfied than a well-fed European, but until he is artificially prompted to pick up a club, he won't. The claim about "great pleasure" is also pure manipulation. Do you have a device that measures the hormones of happiness released by the brain? You're a provocateur. I prefer textual battles; I am more effective here. Although, like all of us, I am a carrier of animal instincts and capable of violence. And if you think you are somehow special, having reached a high level of development, then I pity you. You are just another ordinary bloodthirsty, instinctive animal.

Impoverished Ukrainians lined up in car dealerships for cars.

:smile54:
Sales of new passenger cars in 2018:
in Ukraine: 82,248 units, declining, and on top of that – queues!!
In Russia: 1,595,737, increasing.
The difference per capita is almost 5 times (ed.).

Is there any point in quoting further? :smile15:

You are blatantly manipulating.

I've long noticed that people often perceive an inconvenient truth as manipulation. This is because they see that the person they are talking to is leading them to conclusions they don't want to reach. I am susceptible to this myself, so I try to maintain mental hygiene and advise others to do the same.

A well-fed American is, on average, less satisfied than a well-fed European.

Yes, a person's satisfaction with their material situation is not physical, but psychological. The concepts of "a decent standard of living," "living like a human being," etc., stem from this. The standard of well-being is different for different societies.

but until they are artificially offered a club, they will not take it.

And this is universal – a normal person has a certain mental block against committing violence, so to initiate mass violence, this block must be removed. This is what ideologues and propagandists do, explaining to the outraged masses who their enemy is and what needs to be done to that enemy.

And with a certain level of psychological pressure (reinforced by material dissatisfaction), the masses "ignite," turning into a fearless crowd, eager for the enemy's blood. This is the recipe for revolution.

In fact, the Maidan protests were precisely this kind of psychological pressure, heating up the protesters for future actions, synchronizing their emotional and volitional impulses, and weakening the instinct for self-preservation.

This state is attractive in its own way; there is something primal about it, revealing instincts and freeing people from social constraints. It is also called "revolutionary romanticism."

I am content with textual battles; I am more effective here.

Very well, if that is the case.

I didn't say that manipulation isn't true. Manipulation is manipulation. And you know what that means.

Yes, anyone can be swayed, but the question is, for what purpose? Yes, there was manipulation during the Maidan. But the backstory of the Maidan is not standard. Personally, its emergence came as a surprise to me. There was no informational preparation; people had been grumbling in the corners since 2011, complaining about the "vegetable" [referring to Yanukovych], that the guy had become too arrogant, and I didn't believe that something like this could happen. Even when there were the first clashes after the dispersal and beating of students, I still thought that was it. But people didn't stop coming to the Maidan from all over the country. Moreover, buses were being organized from both sides, but in reality, the "blues" [pro-Yanukovych supporters] were in the absolute minority.

Then everything followed the classic pattern of manipulation – the revolution won, people were promised that everything would be different, and people went home to wait for their expectations to come true. And since everyone has different desires, it never happened.

But in any case, those were good intentions. And the goals of our "brothers" are dark. And the manipulations that were happening then and continue to happen now are dark. And how did you expect things to be – that you would manipulate us, and we would just sit quietly?
That won't work.

Added 9 minutes later

:smile54:
Sales of new passenger cars in 2018.
In Ukraine: 82,248 units, declining, and to top it off – there are queues!!
In Russia: 1,595,737, increasing.
The difference per capita is almost 5 times (ed.)

Is there any point in quoting further? :smile15:

By how much did new car sales fall? If you want to talk in the language of statistics, there is the concept of periods for comparison. Fell from where and to where? Take 5 years and analyze it, or at least 2, so you can say something.
In Ukraine, due to high duties (domestic manufacturers' lobbyists are working), the possibility of buying used cars in Europe and the USA has appeared for several years now. The demand due to lower prices is enormous. In the USA, they buy newer cars, 1-5 years old, which are 30-40 percent cheaper on the market. The demand has shifted from new cars, but this hasn't reduced the number of cars being imported and bought. Put all the imports together and then you can talk.
If you don't understand the issue, why are you getting involved?
What can you even continue to quote? It just irritates me with your scribbles.

Yes, you can influence anyone, but the question is, what are the goals?

Not anyone, but only those who are dissatisfied with their material situation.

But in any case, these were good intentions.

And how do you know that they were good? Perhaps the executors had good intentions, but I'm not so sure about the clients. In fact, I'm quite sure the opposite is true.

The main argument is the language law, passed the day after Yanukovych was overthrown. The basics of any revolution are that immediately after seizing power, you need to reconcile with everyone you can. Yes, you can argue again later, but at first, while there is confusion and the new government is still unstable, you need to minimize possible threats.

Even if radical Westerners, planning to make Ukraine a mono-lingual state, had seized power, they would still have waited with this law until the situation calmed down.

Therefore, the goal of the revolution was not simply a change of power, but the creation of a conflict - either with Russia or with the Russian-speaking population of Ukraine. I don't see any other reasonable explanation for the appearance of this law at the specified time. Well, there is another possible explanation: "they're just idiots," but you can explain too much that way, so let's not.

And since in that situation such a conflict would clearly harm the state (as it ultimately did), it means that this decision was made by people whose goals were clearly not good for Ukraine.

But the goals of our "brothers" are darkness. And the destabilization that was happening then, and that continues now, is darkness. And how did you want it? That we would be destabilized while you just sat around doing nothing? That won't work.

I didn't understand this paragraph at all. What "brothers"? What destabilization? :)