Posts from Introduction of Haven in the Stronghold vs. Dungeon tournaments. Auto-translated

During the development of HotA, there were many philosophical discussions about the present and future of Heroes, about its place in the gaming industry, and so on. I will share my perspective on this issue; it doesn't entirely align with the official position of the HotA team, but since I've been away for almost a year now, I can speak freely.

So, the main problem with Heroes is that it has a high barrier to entry – the games take a lot of time, and a lot of theoretical knowledge is required because without a thorough understanding of the game mechanics, it's impossible to achieve any significant success. Because of this, the influx of new players into Heroes is not as large as in other, simpler, and more dynamic games. This problem can be addressed, or it can be ignored, but in any case, it shouldn't be exacerbated.

For example, regarding SoD vs. HotA – I've been saying for three years that I don't see them as competitors, but rather as complementary game modes. Not everyone believes this, but that's fine. The reason is simple: if SoD can attract players, then let it be SoD. This is a case where the interests of the Heroes community as a whole are more important than the interests of individual groups.

Personally, I prefer HotA; I believe that the future lies with it, which is why I organize tournaments for it. However, I fully support the competitive scene for SoD. For example, the idea of combined tournaments for game modes that are not well-developed in SoD (blitz and mirror matches) was implemented at my initiative for this very reason (so that at least some players would be drawn away from 6lm10a). The wider the audience, the better, and players can figure out the game version and settings themselves; the main thing is to have those players.

For the same reason, I persuaded Baratortcha to create an official HotA league for SoD. Off-topic – I was quietly annoyed for two years by the fact that SoD players preferred to complain instead of looking for a solution to the problem, which was obvious :smile32:

For example, regarding the mandatory official HotA in tournaments – the speakers above are absolutely right; the very fact of payment (even if it's only 50 rubles) raises the barrier to entry. Therefore, such initiatives are a bad idea; a new player should be able to play for free and fully, that is, with official HotA. The most logical solution here is to create one-time accounts for tournament games. Later, when the new player understands the game and gets hooked, they won't have a problem spending 168 rubles on official HotA. And if a new player doesn't want to play with official HotA, that's fine. I repeat: reaching a wider audience is the primary goal; all other criteria are secondary. If there are players, Heroes will live on.

Therefore, if a handful of capricious players leave for other pastures, so be it; the air will be cleaner, and the competition for prize places in tournaments will increase. But if you put obstacles in the way of new players joining, the damage to the Heroes community will be much greater, even if it's not immediately apparent.

It's easy to separate, but difficult and time-consuming to unite. This is not only true in Heroes; it's true in life as well. Therefore, if there are any contradictions for which a compromise is impossible, the most reasonable thing to do is simply to separate the disputing parties into different tournaments; there are plenty of them.

At Gee's request, I will try to translate his message (please don't be too harsh if there are inaccuracies, he's not exactly an English expert):

"I have a few questions for all of you:
1. Do you want to turn this forum, website (or whatever you want to call it) into a league for professional players?
2. If not, then why are you constantly trying to tailor the rules to suit the needs of skilled players?
3. We all see that players leave from time to time, even strong players. If you make the game more difficult for newbies (note: I think this refers to weak players) and beginners, what will that lead to in the future?
4. We all see that the Heroes community has become divided: HOTA vs. SOD, free vs. paid, OH vs. the old style, and it has turned into a confrontation between "veterans" and newbies and weak players. The question is, do you want to help each other or be hostile? In my opinion, without a constant influx of new players, Heroes will die out. However, each of you thinks that your opinion is a guide to action, but it is obvious that this approach leads to more and more conflicts."

Everyone is talking about saving time and so on, but it's unclear why there aren't tournaments on small maps. Where are the show matches between experienced players, with mutual commentary, recordings saved on YouTube, and these recordings prominently displayed on the forum? That's what the community needs right now.

At Gee's request, I will try to translate his message (please don't hit me too hard for inaccuracies, my English is not that great :-)) :

"I have a few questions for all of you:
1. Do you want to turn this forum, site (or whatever you call it) into a league of professional players?
2. If not, why are you constantly trying to tailor the rules for the convenience of skilled players?
3. We all see that from time to time players leave, even strong players. If you make the game harder for noobs (
note: I think weak players are meant here) and beginners, where will this lead in the future?
4. We all see that the heroes community has split: HotA versus SoD, free versus paid, OH versus old style, and has turned into a confrontation of "daddies"
versus noobs and weak players. The question is, do you want to help each other or be at odds? IMHO, without a constant influx of beginners, heroes will die out. However, each of you thinks that your opinion is a manual
for action, but obviously, such an approach leads everything toward greater and greater conflicts."

I don't know, maybe you forgot that we are talking about Tournaments where the strongest wins, and a noob has to try very hard to do that—for example, push themselves and start playing with OH. And I think the community will help anyone who wants to develop.

Yes, tournaments with mandatory OH will raise the barrier to entry, but is that a bad thing? At the very least, it will repel random people or cheaters, but those who truly want to will play.

I have a question that I think is very important.

At the moment (1:00 PM Moscow time, July 18, 2018), 21 people have voted for the first option. The first option in the poll implies that a person will only participate in tournaments with mandatory Online Battles.
In 3 days, OFB-12 will start, and mandatory Online Battles are not currently specified for it. And 8 out of 21 are registered for this tournament.

Let's imagine for a second that Sanin does not specify mandatory Online Battles in OFB-12.

Would these 8 people
Antal_RR, Blitz, Falcone, Huanito, kamukag3e, twaryna, Xocenk, ЯR
actually withdraw from OFB-12 if Online Battles are not required?
(to clarify, I don't need an answer from "passers-by," but I am only interested in the opinions of these players, and only if they did not mean that)

I have a question that seems very important to me.

At the moment (1:00 PM Moscow time, July 18, 2018), 21 people voted for the first option. The first option of the vote implies that a person will only participate in tournaments with mandatory Online Battles.
In 3 days, OFB-12 will start, and mandatory Online Battles are not currently specified for it. And 8 out of 21 are registered for this tournament.

Let's imagine for a second that Sanin does not specify mandatory Online Battles in OFB-12.

Do these 8 people
Antal_RR, Blitz, Falcone, Huanito, kamukag3e, twaryna, Xocenk, ЯR
actually mean that they will withdraw from OFB-12 if Online Battles are not included?
(I clarify that an answer is not required from “passers-by,” but is only of interest to these players themselves, and only if they did not mean that)

or can you just not answer? Thank you!

can't you just not answer? thank you!

unnecessary question. obviously, you can.
your answer is interesting. and that certainly doesn't mean you're obligated to write it.

The poll was created to determine the rules for future tournaments, specifically whether or not to make the use of the "Online Haven" (OH) mandatory. By voting in favor of making the use of OH mandatory in tournaments, I did not intend to express a radical position, as, for example, FTS did, nor did I intend to stop participating in tournaments where this rule is not specified. Yes, I would like to be able to play with OH on any map for the first week, as this convenience has become a habit, but that does not mean that I will withdraw from tournaments where this rule is not in place.

You are quite meticulous. The motivation is the same as that of a kamikaze. I voted for the point, not for radicalism.

YaR, thank you for answering my question with your signature. However, it would be great if there was a separate thread on the forum where you could post links to new YouTube videos; that would make it easier to keep track of them. I would also like to see show matches featuring experienced players on M-200, especially on new templates. A new hotkey pool has even appeared – Nine-Day Wonder.

At the moment, the poll has shown that 57 people are ready to play with OH in one form or another, while only 7 are strictly against OH. This is 89% and 11% respectively.
Personally, at this time, I see the solution to the problem only as holding separate "Only-OH" tournaments, while leaving the key tournaments (Favorites, OFB, etc.) as they are.

All those tournament accounts and such are complete nonsense. If a person is too stingy to spend 168 rubles just once to test OH, then there's no need to spoil them. As for the green Новичок who will come and be shocked — I also disagree. Novices mostly come from streams, and on streams OH is presented as a given, so the modern novice is already mentally prepared for OH, unlike some own hardened conservatives.

Overall, I still agree with the opinion that Sanin wrote at the beginning of the thread:

As an organizer, I am not sure this is a good idea. This will essentially make SoD tournaments paid. Moreover, a typical tournament lasts about half a year, which means the cost of participation could reach a thousand rubles. Yes, in most tournaments it's single-elimination, but the same OFB guarantees nine games to everyone, and to play them — you would have to pay a thousand.

Dirty, any poll can be interpreted in different ways. For example, this poll shows that only less than a third of participants are willing to play only with the "Old Heroes" (OH) mod, and even if you dig deeper, they will play without OH in the "Official Forums Board" (OFB). From the very first post, the tone of the topic was not quite right (Al Feynu should have corrected it, which he is very good at). The tone of the dialogue was set by a young, strong player who is interested in having a convenient and comfortable experience, rather than the viability of the website, and even the game Heroes 3 in general. But still, a discussion took place.

Dirty, any poll can be interpreted in different ways.

For example, this poll shows that only less than a third of participants are willing to play only with HotA, and even if you dig deeper, they will still play without HotA in OFB.

Yes, but I see the conducted poll differently: the majority are willing to play with HotA, and if you dig deeper, even those who voted "Without HotA," who are in the minority, will play with HotA (I'm not considering particularly extreme cases). IMHO, Al Feinu would have been better off conducting provocations in this way.

From the very first post, the tone of the topic was set incorrectly (Al Feinu should have adjusted it, which he is very good at). The tone of the dialogue was set by a young, strong player who is interested in making things convenient and comfortable for himself, and not in the viability of the site, and even the game Heroes 3 in general.

The tone of the topic was set to identify those who disagree and for what reasons. And to make it convenient and comfortable not only for me, but for everyone, hence the critical position. Do you use a mobile phone? Why, when there is a landline. Why was a TV remote invented? Or a microwave? Laptops? And millions of other examples.
I think that HotA in Heroes 3 can be included in this and many other things that make life easier and save time. You can argue for a long time with a person who has never played with HotA, and we still won't come to any conclusion.

Regarding newcomers, who, if they are lucky, will encounter mandatory HotA in tournaments, and this will discourage them for various reasons (everything should be free, "they are trying to squeeze money out of me," etc.), the idea of one-time or trial accounts, I don't think it's such a bad idea. They try it - they like it - they pay. If not, then I doubt that such a person will be able to integrate or stay in the community for a long time when most people already play with HotA. It would be interesting to hear Baratorch's opinion on this point.
Regarding OFB, which lasts 5-6 months and has no playoffs. Here, everything is simple: just look at the history of such OFBs; as a rule, a person withdraws from the tournament after 2-3 losses, and if we consider the problem specifically for complete beginners, who else but them should receive these losses in the first place.
The path of a beginner does not always start with large tournaments; first, he needs to play fun games, he is interested, and he wants to get a rating for the games - he plays seasons, then a "beginner" tournament, which is held twice a year. If he hasn't left the forum after this short journey, then I don't even doubt that paying 168 rubles a month for his hobby will not be a problem for him.

P.S. I'll add, some have forgotten why SOD is still alive. Without Baratorch, the forum would most likely be dead, because there would be no players. Why should a person spend his personal time for free? Having devoted many years to the development and improvement of the HD mod, and now, when a person has finally wanted to receive some financial return from symbolic contributions for his work, such a fuss begins. I don't enjoy playing with such ungrateful people. It's better not to play with negative emotions at all.
Yes, complete beginners may not realize the scale of things, and this can be understood; give them time. If it doesn't work out, then such beginners are not needed either.

Yes, yes, Caliban, the topic was created not for a discussion about online play, but to identify "masochists" and "dissenters."

Moderated: OFF-TOPIC in the message

ЯR, thank you for answering my question with your signature. However, it would be great if there was a separate thread on the forum where you could post links to new YouTube videos; that would make it easier to keep track of them. I would also like to see show matches between experienced players on M-200, especially on new templates. A new hotkey has even appeared in the new pool – Nine-Day Wonder.

Wanting something isn't harmful; just go ahead and do it. As practice shows, M-200 is an unbalanced mess due to its size, and even mirroring won't help. There will be enough variation in morale and heroes to ensure a clear victory, even for opponents who aren't quite evenly matched. Increasing the game speed doesn't equal a fast game on small maps.