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In reply to Wicc
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8 years ago
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Wicc
Look, if you come to negotiations in a suit and tie, it only guarantees that you will be heard. Whether your proposal is accepted depends on the proposal itself. But if you come in ripped jeans and a stained t-shirt, it's unlikely that the negotiations will even begin, no matter how good your proposal is.

It's the same here – a polite tone only guarantees that the host will listen to your proposal and give a polite answer. Whether it is accepted depends on what you are offering.

Damn, you're contradicting yourself (regarding the "big shots"). If you're an unknown, then of course, it's better to look presentable so that they listen to you. But if you're (conditionally) Sergey Shnurov, then even if you come to some negotiations naked and poop on the documents on the table, you will still be listened to carefully, and your behavior might even be accepted as an important social gesture and a fresh turn in culture. By the way, neither FTS, nor Hellight, nor Gomunguls, nor Lucky, etc., ever say anything like that, but I will: yes, I believe that my opinion on some issue in Heroes is definitely more important and valuable than the opinion of a person who can barely make it out of the "Novice" tournament group. And, frankly, it's strange to think otherwise. You think that these conditional "big shots" are trying to assert themselves and show how mega-smart they are with their opinions and claims. But that's not the case! They have all established themselves in Heroes for a long time and proven everything to everyone, and they don't care about any opinions about themselves. Claims and disputes are just to make the game more convenient and enjoyable, because that's what attracts more people to Heroes, raises the level, and makes it more interesting. But the constant changes in tournament rules and the discussions around them scare players away. Seriously, I don't want to offend or elevate anyone, but 99.9% – if Dirty hosted Heroes tournaments, they would have been gathering not just 1/4 of the crowd that Soda does, but more than half.
In reply to =Lizard=
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8 years ago
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Well, you said... I'm laughing... :D The SoD Tournaments are more of an anti-example of how not to develop the hero community. Chronic problems are not solved for years, new gameplay and rules either don't appear at all or are imported from HoMM (and previously from WoG). I won't even talk about technical improvements – everything comes from people who have nothing to do with online SoD. There is no long-term development program; offline tournaments have turned into booze-and-poker parties, and on the channels of leading streamers, the main "selling content" is chatting during other people's games and discussing anime in the chat. It's clear that a "master of ceremonies" or "maître d'" type of leader is more suitable for such an environment – someone who won't interfere with people having fun. In HoMM, many things are done slowly and poorly, and I also bear some responsibility for this, but there is a fundamental difference – the desire to move forward. Through experiments, through mistakes, but with a vision of a distant goal. And for this, you need different types of people – a "head of the design bureau," a "construction team leader," etc. Of course, they are much less "cute," especially if you start arguing with them. As for "if someone else were running the tournaments"... it's all in your hands. As you noticed, I'm not clinging to my tournaments; I'm happy to hand them over to others. Take them, run them, gather twice as many viewers. If you succeed, I will only be happy.
I believe that my opinion on a particular issue in Heroes is definitely more important and valuable than the opinion of a person who can barely make it out of the group stage in a "Novice" tournament.
You seem to have misunderstood. I'm not interested in the skill level of the author of a particular idea; I evaluate the idea itself. Therefore, I look at the arguments for it, not at the author. My experience observing gaming communities (not just the Heroes community) has shown that "experienced players" differ from "newbies" mainly in their dexterity, stability of the nervous system, and motivation to win. And analytical abilities depend weakly on gaming skill. Therefore, when it comes not to practical issues like "how to take a consul-double," but to modeling "what will happen if...", the percentage of intelligent ideas from experienced players drops dramatically.
In reply to Wicc
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8 years ago
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To illustrate, let me give you a few examples of how the thinking of a "KB head" differs from a "wedding MC".

1) The new rule for a restart due to a block on Jebus. I never liked Jebus throughout my entire gaming career, I hardly played on it and didn't host tournaments on it. But when a couple of years ago I had to take on Blitz-Jebus, I immediately appreciated the scale of the problem - during that tournament, I received about 5 requests to assign a restart due to a block in layouts where formally there wasn't one, but in fact there was.

So by the next tournament, I reformulated this rule. Even the "sodovtsy" informally use it now, although the HeroesWorld rules don't mention a word about it (and where are the rule-makers looking...)

In other words, people played Jebus with the default rule for about 8 years, abused technical restarts, complained, but it never occurred to anyone to change it.

2) The substitution rule in team tournaments. For many years, everyone played with the rule "player disappears => technical loss". Until Vika thought of running his own team tournament, he read the OZV rules, thought "what kind of nonsense is this", and introduced the substitution rule.

This rule appeared in the very next OZV, albeit in a half-baked form. Now all that remains is to wait for Sanin to lose a player from the last basket, so that he realizes the need for importing the second part of the rule as well.

3) The notorious incident from Mirrors-2 about the mutual destruction of the "daddies". I saw this possibility from very far away, suggested to Sav a couple of years ago to introduce a reset of dead heroes by analogy with BT, but Sav refused. Then I wrote to Wizard and Baratorch to make such an option available specifically for mirror matches. But they ignored it.

In the end, when this landmine finally exploded, I limited this possibility at the rule level. Yes, the solution is not very convenient, I would have preferred a technical implementation.

That's why I insisted back then, because I already had a fundamental solution, the only question was the method of implementation.


In SoD, such changes occur only when Reddy pulls off something, and even then not always.
In reply to Wicc
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8 years ago
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Wicc

2) The rule for substitutions in team tournaments. For many years, everyone played with the rule "player disconnected => technical loss." Until Vic came up with the idea to host his own team tournament, he read the OZV rules, thought "what nonsense," and introduced the substitution rule.

In the very next OZV, this rule appeared, although in a partial form. Now we just need to wait for Sanin to have a player disconnect from the last bracket so that he realizes the need for importing and the second part of the rule as well.

The principle of substituting players in OZV has changed from tournament to tournament. The one that is used now is an idea from the very first OZV tournament, although it wasn't written in the regulations at the time, but there was a precedent; for example, MaxGor played in two brackets at once.
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8 years ago
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But you didn’t mention the brilliant idea of using already eliminated players and those who dropped out of the tournament, reinstating them in the same round in another part of the bracket instead of the missing player — NOT in a team tournament, for some reason... you generally omitted quite a few of the discussed "super innovations" from the above list. Only the Jebus Cross rule is reasonable; everything else that’s sensible was either used by everyone except die-hard conservatives, or it’s questionable nonsense.
8 years ago
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Wicc
I saw this possibility from afar, and a couple of years ago, I suggested to Sava to introduce a feature that would reset fallen heroes, similar to what's in World Tree, but Sava refused.
Resetting, of course, didn't work out and still doesn't, but I was ready to implement a solution where developed heroes simply wouldn't return to the tavern at a certain point, and I still think it's the right approach. However, there are opposing opinions within the team on this matter, and players also expressed their views on this issue without much enthusiasm, so it remained as it was.
In reply to HellLighT
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8 years ago
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HellLighT
And the brilliant idea of using players who have already lost and been eliminated from the tournament, restoring them to the same round in a different part of the bracket instead of the missing player.
Yes, thank you for reminding me, this is also, in my opinion, a very good idea – it encourages players to play matches earlier, gives a bonus to more motivated players (whose spirits don't drop after 2 losses), and reduces the number of technical results, leading to more game results, thereby increasing the prestige of the title.

For example, the Diamond:Survival final is currently underway, with De_Luxe playing, who went through 2 losses in the starting rounds and then qualified as a replacement. I don't think anyone would say that he doesn't deserve to be in this final. After all, this is his second Diamond final in a row. I think he is the strongest opponent that Dave could have faced in the final.
In reply to Sav
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8 years ago
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Sav
Resetting, of course, didn't work and doesn't work, but I was ready to make it so that leveled-up heroes simply wouldn't come to the tavern at a certain point, and I considered (and still consider) it the right thing to do. But there are opposing opinions on this within the team, and players also expressed themselves on this issue without much enthusiasm, so it remained as it was.
Considering the prospects of a mirrored tavern, it would have been possible to implement a specific workaround just for mirrored taverns. In any case, with the mirrored tavern, this functionality will become irrelevant and will be removed.
8 years ago
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And here's the wall of text at last. :smile03: I want to draw the attention of both Vikk and everyone attacking him to the fact that there is a correct path, and all the others.

The correct path is to:
a) recognize the fact of existence, realize and formulate a systemic problem that emerges from a specific situation
b) think with your head — what solution options do we have, if we need to initiate a discussion, argue the options, and decide which one is best and why.
And only these two actions, executed generally correctly and without bugs (I also refer to a recent quote from Marcus Aurelius about detachment / selflessness of a leader), leave the participants (not everyone — there will always be some dullards in life, and someone who decided to be dull just today), with good chances leave the participants and observers with a feeling of happiness.

So, from what has been recently stated, one needs to understand:
1) Vikk sometimes did the right things (in my personal opinion, by accident :D , nevertheless these are facts) — it happened, he did them, this is a plus for him and gratitude for those instances, and I have expressed mine and do not take them back, and I think reasonable people will not take back their respects where they are deserved.
2) The rest of the time, Vikk did the wrong things (in my personal opinion — he has a tendency towards this, but again, I could be wrong) — nevertheless, the residue left from these actions is equally objective, and Vikk ignores it in vain — he earned this karma through his specific mistakes, which he diligently ignores (rationalizes, calling it "interaction with non-systemic opposition") — one way or another, he does not accept this part of the facts.
3) In the community, there are objectively problems that have been ignored for years and are not being solved. And sometimes against this background, even Vikk looks good. This concerns rules, and life in general, some guidelines in discussions, what topics can be raised and where, and which cannot.
For me, the most striking examples are:
3.1) the impossibility of discussing tournament rules and situations not only in the main tournament threads, but at least in a separate thread specifically for discussions; an example of a tournament that can be discussed is the World Cup (and this is by the way an example of a person who, in my opinion, has a tendency towards correct decisions in life — Armageddets — he tries to resolve every problematic situation intelligently, allowing everyone who wishes to speak, discussing in private messages as much as possible with key people, and choosing the best option in an understandable way with understandable arguments)
3.2) the absence of standards for appointing ODD. For over 10 years, they simply do not exist. This is fantastic. :smile54: The problem objectively exists (recently, I recall, the Favorites' final almost fell through due to the lack of such standards), and there are no discussions or standards at all.
But these are just a couple of examples of my personal opinion, and Vikk also gave a good example about restarts on Jebus.

I will repeat the essence. The solution to everything and always lies in following the correct path of the two points mentioned above. And in discussions, try to figure out who has a tendency to sincerely try to follow this path, and who has a tendency to troll, be dull, spam, etc., and so on. It is clear that thinking diligently is not easy, at some point it even gets tiring (the law of conservation of energy has not been repealed), so discussions sometimes stop simply because everyone is already overtired, and there is still no solution — but this does not negate the fact that this is just dullness — trolling and being dull is always easier.

Furthermore, I will repeat another thought that I have expressed before, but will rephrase in a new way. When some discussions are initiated, it is very often an indication that a specific person (or even a group) believes we have strayed from the correct path. And they are trying to bring the community back to this path (there is also the option — corruption, but that's not what this is about). The start of a discussion is not a personal accusation against a specific tournament organizer that he is a "wackjob" starting with 'w', but merely an indication that we seem to have strayed from the right path (a problem is recognized and there are no solutions, the arguments are unclear). And it is still a big surprise to me that many tournament organizers on HeroesWorld interpret the start of discussions at this moment as personal accusations against themselves and (or) simply ignore them. (And some of the popcorn-eating audience are in on it too, but not much is expected from them).
8 years ago
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Wicc
Considering the prospects of the mirror tavern, one could have implemented a specific workaround for mirror matches. Either way, with the mirror tavern, this functionality will become irrelevant and will be removed.
I don't quite understand how this relates to the mirror tavern. In my understanding, such restrictions make sense to introduce in order to eliminate the digging up of main heroes from the game – a process that is lengthy, not very intellectually stimulating, and has a random result with high variance (which players can avoid by agreeing to a draw, etc.). This is present in all templates, and the mirror tavern doesn't save you from it (at most, it won't allow you to buy an opponent's main hero, leaving the possibility of digging up your own hero still random).
In reply to Grando
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8 years ago
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Al Feyn
calling it "interaction with non-systemic opposition"
Well, considering that in the last year, about 15-20 people participated in discussions with me about the rules, and only 2.5 people ended up on the "non-systemic" list, I was actually quite restrained:rolleyes:
In reply to Sav
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8 years ago
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Sav
I don't quite understand how this relates to the mirror tavern. In my opinion, such restrictions make sense to introduce in order to eliminate the "digging up" of main heroes from the game – a process that is lengthy, not very intellectually stimulating, and has a random result with high variance (which players can avoid by agreeing to a draw, etc.). This is present in all templates, and the mirror tavern doesn't save you from it (at most, it won't allow you to buy the opponent's main hero, but it still leaves the possibility of digging up your own hero, which remains just as random).
Well, with the mirror tavern, either both players will dig up heroes, or neither will.

Regarding "in all templates" – in non-mirror templates, this is part of the randomness, of which there is already a lot, so I don't mind it. But in mirror templates, it violates the ideology of the template.

Ideally, yes, it would be best to make such "digging up" impossible. The specific implementation is not critical. But if there are difficulties in developing the final version, then a temporary fix can be put in place. Moreover, all the code of the current mirror tavern is considered "not kosher" and will be rewritten.
8 years ago
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Wicc
Well, with the Mirror Tavern, either both players will dig it up, or neither will.
Yes, indeed, I hadn't thought about it from that perspective.
In reply to Wicc
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8 years ago
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Wicc
Yes, thank you for reminding me, this is also, in my opinion, a very good idea – it encourages players to play matches sooner, gives a bonus to more motivated players (who don't give up after 2 losses), and reduces the number of technical results, leading to more actual gameplay results, thus increasing the prestige of the title.

For example, the Diamond:Survival final is currently underway, with De_Luxe playing, who went through 2 losses in the starting rounds and qualified as a replacement. I don't think anyone would say that he doesn't deserve to be in this final. After all, this is his second Diamond final in a row. I think he is the strongest opponent that Dave could have faced in the final.
Technically, this is an exploit, with zero prestige. The loser will never be worthy of winning the tournament. Thank you for your attention :smile45:
In reply to Sav
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8 years ago
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Wicc
1) The new rule of restarting on block on Jebus. I never liked Jebus throughout my entire gaming career, almost never played it and didn't hold tournaments on it. But when a couple of years ago I had to take on Blitz-Jebus, I immediately appreciated the scale of the problem - during that tournament I received about 5 requests to assign a restart on a block in layouts where formally there was none, but in fact there was.
I believe that such an addition for Jebus is a half-measure. I don't understand why a block that can be circumvented should be restarted, but, for example, a road leading to a one-way portal on swamp on XL+U should be played out? Or an unbreakable block on 8hm8 in the neighboring zone? Or unbreakable 6k on SM-K? Therefore, I am against such a half-rule, but if people like it, then fine.
Wicc
Yes, thanks for reminding me, this is also IMHO quite a successful idea - it encourages players to play their matches earlier, gives a bonus to more motivated players (those who don't give up after 2 losses), and also reduces the number of technical results, gives more game results, thereby making the title's prestige higher.
This system does not encourage players to play earlier, but gives an advantage to players ready to play 24/7 over those who have the opportunity to play only one game every two weeks.
Wicc
For example, the Diamond:Survival final is currently underway, where De_Luxe is playing, who came through 2 losses in the starting rounds and a substitute entry. I think no one would dare say he is unworthy of this final. After all, this is his 2nd consecutive final on Diamond. I think this is the strongest opponent Dave could have gotten in the final.
A player who has already been eliminated makes it to the final! CoolStoryBob! :smile45:
The fact that two strong players met in the final does not mean they deserved it. If we follow this logic, we could just play the final right away without any preliminaries. Here I fully agree with the opinion:
HellLighT
Technically it's an abuse, prestige 0, a loser will never be worthy of winning a tournament, thank you for your attention :smile45:
Wicc
Well, with a mirror tavern, either both players dig up, or no one does.
CoolStory again. If you leveled Crag Hack and I leveled Tazar, and they both die, then we both dig up Crag Hack or both dig up Tazar, but here's the catch - for one of them he will be level 1.
Sav
Yes, indeed, I hadn't thought of it from that angle.
To be honest, I don't even remotely understand the principle of a mirror tavern that could theoretically exist. How can you not violate the principles of mirroring if someone dismisses heroes, fires them, or even just buys them in different slots? How can you not violate the principle of the same class not appearing in two slots while maintaining mirroring? What to do with a dead hero if the second player has him? So many "buts" hinder implementation, it seems to me, although maybe I'm just a noob and don't understand?
Wicc
3) The much-talked-about incident from Mirrors-2 about the mutual death of the "daddies". I saw this possibility from a long way off, and a couple of years ago I suggested Sav to introduce a reset of dead heroes by analogy with WT, but Sav refused. Then I wrote to Wizard and Baratorch to make such a possibility specifically for mirrors. But they ignored it.
This incident became notorious because of your stubborn bullheadedness, when everyone told you that you were adding nonsense, but you still did everything your own way. Because of a situation that occurs in the game in less than 1% of cases, you deliberately went into conflict. That's essentially the main complaint against you.

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