Posts from - Attack and damage skill.

Please explain the difference between the attack skill and the damage of units. How do they interact?

It seems that up to level 46, the attack skill is better, and after that, the defense skill becomes more important. Or something along those lines.

No... If I understand correctly, the person is interested in how the damage inflicted by a unit is calculated, taking into account its attack and the enemy's defense... (something like that).

It seems he is interested in the relationship between the damage dealt and the attack skill.

The damage dealt in combat is calculated as follows: number of creatures attacking * (a random number within the range from the minimum to the maximum damage of a single creature) * the difference coefficient between the attacker's and defender's attack and defense stats. This coefficient is calculated as follows: a) If the difference between the attacker's attack and the defender's defense is positive: 1 + (the minimum of (attack - defense) * 5% and 300%). b) If the difference between the attacker's attack and the defender's defense is negative: 1 - (the minimum of (defense - attack) * 2.5% and 70%). It's easy to see that when the attack exceeds the defense by more than 60, the damage no longer increases, and when the defense exceeds the attack by more than 28, the damage no longer decreases. But that's not all. After these calculations, other factors come into play: hero magic and skills (attack and defense/armor). Attack increases damage: - Basic: 10% - Advanced: 20% - Expert: 30% Defense reduces damage: - Basic: 5% - Advanced: 10% - Expert: 15% Regarding spells, the Shield spell reduces damage. By 15% with basic Earth magic, by 30% with advanced Earth magic, and by 30% for all non-immune units with expert Earth magic. Plus, there are heroes who specialize in attack (e.g., Crag Hack, Gundula - attack, Neela, Mephala, Tazar - defense), the Ranged skill, spells that increase attack and decrease defense, and vice versa, but someone else will tell you about this and much more. In conclusion, I'll say that when attacking, monsters reduce the defender's defense by 40%, and ancient monsters reduce it by 80%. That's why they say that the white bear came and said, "Hello!"

Thank you, QWERTY! I just didn't quite understand the following: (Attack - Defense) * 5% and 300% – should I understand it as: (Attack minus Defense) * 5% * 300%?:confused:

I just didn't quite understand the following: (Attack - Defense) * 5% and 300% – should this be understood as: (attack minus defense) * 5% * 300%?:confused:

No, it means that there is a maximum multiplier, which is 4. There is also a minimum multiplier, which is 0.3. That is, 1000 peasants will deal 300 damage to a Sapphire Dragon, despite the latter's huge defense. On the other hand, 1 Archangel will deal no more than 200 damage to peasants (50 * 4), despite its huge attack. This does not take into account secondary skills.

QWERTY didn't say everything about modifying the calculated damage using the secondary skills "Defense" and "Attack". More precisely, everything is written correctly about "Defense" (the already calculated damage is reduced by a certain percentage), but with "Attack", as well as with the secondary skill "Ranged Attack", things are a little different. With a positive difference between the attacker's attack and the target's defense, the calculated damage is indeed increased by the specified percentage. With a negative difference between the attacker's attack and the target's defense, this percentage decreases!!! The decrease is 1.25% for each difference between the attacker's attack and the target's defense for the "Attack" skill, and 1.75% for the "Ranged Attack" skill.

Let's calculate how much damage 100 peasants in a hero's army with an Expert "Attack" skill will deal to 1 Archangel. Let the hero's attack be 9. Then the peasants' attack is 9 + 1 = 10. The Archangel's defense is 30. The difference between the peasants' attack and the Archangel's defense is 10 - 30 = -20, i.e., negative. Then the multiplier will be 1 - 20 * 0.02 = 0.6. Therefore, the damage will be 100 * 0.6 = 60. But there is also an Expert "Attack" skill!!! Since the difference between the peasants' attack and the Archangel's defense is negative, the increase in damage due to "Attack" will be less than 30%. To be more precise, it is 30% - 20 * 1.25% = 5%. Finally, the damage of 100 peasants to 1 Archangel will be 60 + 60 * 0.05 = 63 (and not 78!).

P.S. I checked this myself using the map editor. I can send the results by mail (to view, you need the Origin 7.0 program).

In essence, almost everything stated above is correct. However, it is written in a rather academic language. If we simplify this principle to make it clearer for those who don't want to delve into the details, we can say the following: 1. If the attacker's attack value exceeds the defender's defense, then for each unit of difference, the damage N dealt by the attacker increases by 5%. The maximum damage can increase by 300% (to N*4 of the initial damage), which is achieved when the attack/defense difference is 60. 2. If the attacker's attack value is less than the defender's defense, then for each unit of difference, the damage N dealt by the attacker decreases by 2.5%. The maximum damage can decrease by 70% (to N*0.3 of the initial damage), which is achieved when the defense/attack difference is 28. This is the core principle of the calculation. Additionally, modifiers (secondary skills, spells, hero specializations) influence the result, but the calculation principle remains unchanged.

Then the coefficient will be 1-20*0.02=0.6. P.S.: I checked it myself using the map editor. I can send the results by email (you need Origin 7.0 to view them).

I won't argue with you, but I will express my disagreement by simply suggesting a different calculation mechanism. 1. The defense advantage of the Archangel over the attack of the Peasant is 30-(9+1)=20 units. For each of these, the damage dealt by the Peasant stack is reduced by 2.5%, resulting in 20*2.5%=50%, i.e., the Peasants deal exactly half the damage. 2. The initial damage of the entire stack is 100*1=100 HP, and with the "Attack" expert skill, it will be 100*1.3=130 HP. Since the actual damage is halved (according to point 1), the result is 130/2=65 HP (and not 63, as you stated). This is a simpler explanation of the calculation... I think that if you have time to check, you will agree with me. Or refute it if you find any substantive objections. The fact that you mentioned that the coefficient of the "Attack" secondary skill decreases as the Defense/Attack difference increases was news to me. Because, following your figures, it turns out that with a difference of 30/1.25=24 units, the "Attack" secondary skill stops working altogether because it becomes zero... Please explain what you meant. Sincerely, AmberSoler

For me, the fact you mentioned was news: the secondary skill "Attack" coefficient decreases as the difference between "Defense" and "Attack" increases. Because, following your numbers, it turns out that with a difference of 30/1.25 = 24 units, the secondary skill "Attack" stops working altogether because it becomes zero... Please explain what you meant.

That's exactly what I meant; with such a large difference between attack and defense, this skill stops working. I'm more interested in where you got the figure of 2.5% if the attacker's attack is less than the target's defense? Everyone knows it's 2%! I've always used it when calculating damage and have never been wrong.

AmberSoler is a respected expert on the third installment of the Heroes series, and he has done a LOT of great work, for which I personally thank him. And in most cases, his words correspond to reality. Now, let's get to the point. I first mentioned the figure of 2.5% in a post on July 24, 2006, at 18:08 in this thread. I have known this figure for quite some time, and in the post by the respected AmberSoler on July 28, 2006, at 00:49, there is confirmation of this parameter. If anyone conducts a series of 10 experiments (preferably with troops with fixed damage, such as peasants, naga, or angels), please write the detailed results in this thread.

I apologize for the misinformation. My words regarding the percentage decrease are incorrect, as I performed the calculations using 2% instead of 2.5%. Indeed, when attack is lower than defense, the calculation formula is exactly as AmberSoler stated. That is, the base damage is multiplied by 1.3, and then by the coefficient derived from the difference between attack and defense. However, here is what I want to clarify: if attack is higher than defense, there is no multiplication by 1.3; instead, 30% of the base damage is added to the calculated result. This can be seen in the attached file. The hero has expert Offense. The base minimum damage of vampires against butterflies is 48*5=240. If we apply all modifiers, we get 240*1.3*(1+18*0.05)=592.8=592. We can see that this is not the case. The correct formula is 240*(1+18*0.05)+240*0.3=528. Or 240*(0.3+1+18*0.05)=528 (which is the same thing). Thus, the damage calculation formula with Offense is DIFFERENT depending on whether the attack-defense difference is positive or negative.

...I used the number 2%, not 2.5%, in my calculations.

In reality, the number 2% wasn't invented by you. There are several sources that provide this specific reduction coefficient, and you may have adopted it as a guideline at some point... Previously, I also used it in my calculations and attributed any discrepancies to internal rounding errors...

Practice has shown that this coefficient is incorrect, and, as you know, there is no original source that explains the internal mechanism of calculating most game elements. The developers didn't deem it necessary to share this information with players. However, there were interviews published on Progamer with one of the game's programmers, who shared many interesting details (in particular, he clarified the intricacies of diplomacy)... By using this information, along with players' own observations, we can sometimes uncover the truth :)

It was these circumstances that prompted me to write a guide to the physics of the Heroes world. Many players on various forums provided great support by sharing their knowledge and observations.

Regarding the formulas. I deliberately didn't include formulas in my post because I was explaining the calculation mechanism itself, which seems more useful than just a formula. Your observation can be explained by the fact that the "defense bonus" of the target (when defense is higher than the attacker's attack) affects both the attacker's damage and their secondary "Attack" skill. Therefore, the multiplication doesn't violate the calculation mechanism. The "attack bonus" that you mentioned doesn't indirectly affect the attacker's secondary "Attack" skill. ("Attack" only modifies the base damage and therefore should be considered separately)... This is what your observations have shown. However, I admit that this formula may not always accurately reflect the actual damage.

To provide a complete formula, it is also necessary to consider the interaction of the secondary skills Attack and Ranged Attack for ranged units (they exclude each other), the effect of the Bless and Accuracy spells (they complement each other), which can also be used and disrupt our calculations, and so on. In addition, there is the concept of Luck, which only modifies the base Damage but doesn't affect bonuses, and much more.

Try to calculate the damage that a Hydra will inflict when attacking multiple stacks simultaneously using this approach... It won't be so simple :)

This can only be verified experimentally.

Sincerely,
AmberSoler

Thank you all very much! Follow-up question: How is the damage of the Deadly Gaze ability calculated for Gorgons? I noticed that its damage is 2-3 times stronger!

Thank you all very much!!! Follow-up question: How is the damage of Gorgon's Deadly Gaze calculated? I noticed that its damage is 2-3 times more powerful!

This damage isn't actually calculated... It's simply that one of the units in the enemy army has a 10% chance of being sent to the Hall of Heroes... And it doesn't matter how much health it has... This applies to each powerful Gorgon in the stack, meaning a stack of N Gorgons has the highest probability of sending exactly N/10 enemy units to the Hall of Heroes.

That's right! AmbreSoler, keep up the good work, it can really help both new and experienced players!