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Based on streams and feedback from experienced players, the outcome of the game largely depends on which heroes appear in the tavern for each player, especially when playing with mirrored map templates. This has led to a suggestion: give each player the ability to choose a pool of 8 heroes who will appear in their tavern at the beginning of the game.
The implementation would look like this: in the map generation settings window, an additional tab appears. When opened, both players see a table with portraits of all the heroes available in the game. Players take turns picking one hero from this table until each has a pool of 8 "starting" heroes. These 8 heroes can appear in the tavern in a random order (or not necessarily random), but heroes not included in the pool will not appear in the tavern until the main 8 have been recruited. Heroes from the opponent's pool cannot appear in the player's tavern. Whether they can appear if they have been killed is another question, open for discussion.
It could also be possible to allow players to expand the pool and choose another 8 "reserve" heroes, who will appear after the 8 "main" heroes have been recruited.
Essentially, this suggestion is an integration of the already available "invite a hero" function into online battles.
FireToSky
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I don't think any of the players would support that. Legalizing something like this would only lead to even greater imbalance. And it's tedious to have to choose so many heroes every time. It's not like Dota.
Marcus Aurelius
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FireToSky
I don't think any of the players would support that.
This is Heroes, any new feature will be met with resistance from the players. Such things should be introduced based on the benefits they bring, not on the opinions of the players. FireToSky
Such legalization will only lead to greater imbalance.
And what imbalance? The number of heroes can be set in the template settings; if the number of heroes is zero, the heroes will appear in the standard way.
So, you might ask, what is the purpose of this new feature?
This interface will allow you to implement 2 things:
1) Ban certain heroes on the map
2) Remove certain heroes from the list, i.e., exclude the possibility of them appearing at the beginning of the game for both players
I don't see any imbalance in the possibility of banning logistics heroes on mirror templates and excluding the possibility of Luna appearing for both players at the beginning of the game. FireToSky
And it's tedious to choose so many heroes every time.
Playing Heroes is a tedious activity in general; every time you have to build castles, collect resources, and conquer objects...) FireToSky
It's not Dota.
That's not a very good argument
baratorch
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For non-mirror matches, choosing 8 heroes is unnecessary. For mirror matches, it's better to have mirrored starting heroes and a mirrored tavern arrival.
Choosing 8 heroes for non-mirror matches is unnecessary. For mirror matches, it's better to have mirror starting heroes and a mirror tavern arrival.
And mirror hero leveling!!!
Marcus Aurelius
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baratorch
For mirror matches, it would be better to have mirror starting heroes and a mirror tavern arrival.
Yes, from a balance perspective, mirror heroes with the same upgrades are an ideal solution. But how does it look from the outside, for the viewer? In my opinion, it's not a very appealing solution. Besides, mirror maps have many random factors, such as morale, for example. And different heroes for the players is one of these factors; it adds some color to the game, and I wouldn't want to give that up. baratorch
Choosing 8 heroes is unnecessary for non-mirror matches.
Why is it unnecessary? First, it will add an interesting element to the gameplay. At first, players may find it "tedious," but I'm sure that over time, players will love this stage of the game. In Hearthstone, players pick a deck before the game; in my opinion, it's a very engaging activity. And how much spectacle could it bring for the viewers! I would be very interested to see what heroes different experienced players would choose, especially if the heroes in Heroes of Might and Magic are more balanced in the future, and the choice is not so obvious!
Besides, there doesn't necessarily have to be 8 heroes. As I said, the number of picks can be set in the template settings, i.e., it can be 4 picks or 2.
And just in case, I'll duplicate here the additional benefit of this new feature: Marcus Aurelius
This interface will allow you to implement 2 things:
1) Ban certain heroes on the map
2) Remove certain heroes from the list, i.e., exclude the possibility of them appearing at the beginning of the game for both players
Before picking heroes for the starting pool, players have a certain number of picks to ban and exclude heroes from the list. (This number can also be set in the template settings). So, they first take turns banning heroes, then take turns excluding heroes from the list, and then take turns picking.
Yes, at first, it may seem "tedious," but I'm sure that players will get used to it and love this new feature!
Added 1 hour 47 minutes ago Oh, here's a picture that fits the topic that was posted in the chat
Added 41 minutes ago Ah, I realized another thing: this will help get rid of all sorts of Christians and Rion in the tavern, who come without archers and ruin people's lives!
***
I've been thinking a bit and came up with a more beautiful and interesting scheme:
After clicking "Start Game," before the map itself is generated, players are given a set of 40 random heroes that can appear in the tavern and prisons on this map. (The number 40 is just an example). Players take turns picking heroes from this list. First, they can ban a certain number of heroes from appearing on the map. Then, they exclude a few heroes from the list so that they cannot be chosen as starting heroes. And finally, they take turns picking heroes that will appear in the tavern at the beginning of the game. So, what do we have in total:
1) The ability to ban the appearance of a super-hero for one of the players
2) The ability to exclude the appearance of Christians, Pikedrams, and Ufretins in the tavern
3) All players are happy with their set of heroes (if they are not happy, it's their own fault)
4) Unlike the previous scheme, each game will feature a different set of heroes (which will maintain diversity, but now the set of heroes will be balanced)
It should be noted that even the first item on this list cannot be balanced by ordinary methods, because on different templates, super-heroes are not always the same faces. (If on M-maps, Ciel is an overpowered hero, and Tazar is a weakling, then on XL-maps, everything is completely different).
Another big plus of this system is that now, for games in the "War of the Wizards" format, there will be no need for any verbal restrictions, because the random set of heroes can now only include wizard heroes. Moreover, now it is possible to exclude even Battle Mages from the Stronghold, because they clearly don't qualify as wizards)
Marcus Aurelius
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***
Yes, I know I'm already bombarding you with suggestions regarding secondary skills, but I can't help myself). I'll write down a few ideas here that seem most interesting to me:
1) First Aid Tent
On Expert difficulty, the tent provides "area-of-effect" healing, restoring 100% health to all units within a specified area. If the tent is destroyed, it is repaired after the battle.
2) Eagle Eye
The ability to view the opponent's spellbook before the start of the battle. On Expert difficulty, you can immediately learn one spell from it. Before the battle, the enemy receives a notification: "the opponent is viewing your spellbook" or "the opponent has learned a spell from your book."
A similar function could be implemented on the adventure map, so that on Expert difficulty, you can steal a control spell.
3) Training
In the original game, this skill gave a 100% bonus to learning on Expert difficulty, and in the end, it could be forgotten and replaced with another skill. And despite all this, it was still rarely taken, so I suggest adding the following functionality in addition to the learning bonus:
When learning at a level-up, you are offered a choice of 3 skills (instead of 2) for basic learning, 4 for advanced learning, and 5 for Expert learning.
There's also one more thing that comes to mind (pay attention, no one has suggested this to you yet):
The ability to refuse a skill at the witch's hut and at the scholar's!
4) Diplomacy
Leave the percentages for joining (possibly only half the stack), but now on Expert diplomacy, neutral troops always offer to let the hero pass without a fight for a certain fee. That is, they always act as if they are fleeing, but they don't flee, they just let you pass for money.
That is, now you can, for example, quickly level up diplomacy, collect money, and go to the center on Jebus in the early days, receiving a certain bonus.
FireToSky
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Learning on the War Training ground was overpowered. He was always picked in the early levels.
Well, +15% for training on expert difficulty is really laughable. Although 100% is completely overpowered.
Added 1 minute ago Marcus Aurelius
4) Diplomacy
Leave the percentages for joining (possibly only half the stack), but now in expert diplomacy, neutral troops always offer to let the hero pass without a fight for a certain fee. That is, they always act as if they are fleeing, but they don't flee, they just let you pass for money.
So now it will be possible, for example, to quickly level up diplomacy, collect money, and go to the center on Jebus in the early days, receiving a certain bonus.
Finally, the strategy of playing as the Capitol will come to life with new colors :D :D :D :D
Ment
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Although, 100% is quite overpowered.
I don't fully understand the online environment, but I'd like to clarify something. Let's say we have two heroes developing at the same rate. One of them didn't receive any training and reached level 18 (which is normal for online play?). That's 57,533 experience points. The second hero received expert training almost immediately and has about twice as much experience, meaning less than 117,134, or around that number. That's levels 21-22. Essentially, the second hero has an advantage in that they have 3-4 more stats (in total) and 0-1 additional skill, but they paid for it with an entire expert training slot. In my opinion, it's not that bad, but I'm not sure if it's completely overpowered...
The difference actually amounts to about 3 levels, which essentially just eliminates the need for an extra skill. However, for heroes whose specialization is based on their level, this is critical. "IMBA" is perhaps a strong word, but the main advantage of this skill was that it could be forgotten (removed from the list of skills) and the desired element could be purchased at the university.
The difference actually amounts to about 3 levels, which essentially eliminates the need for an extra skill. However, for heroes whose specialization is based on their level, this is critical. "IMBA" is perhaps a strong word, but the main advantage of the skill was that it could be forgotten (removed from the list of skills) and the desired element could be purchased at the university.
Kostya, you are wrong. The "IMBA" aspect was in the ability to upgrade units at double the speed!!! And upgraded units were a real "IMBA".
And +3 levels don't make a difference, just like +3 levels for heroes with special abilities.
.... шло время, а ситуация не менялась. Мясо продолжало визжать и пищать и главное НИЧЕГО не делать!!!
Marcus Aurelius
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Yes, even with a 100% bonus and an expanded selection during level-ups, training will become a good skill, but nothing more. However, this Marcus Aurelius
The ability to forgo a skill at the Witch Hut and the Mage Guild.
could really make it overpowered. Therefore, a small correction: not to forgo a skill, but to choose from two/three/four skills at the Witch Hut and choose between a secondary skill and +1 to stats at the Mage Guild. Dirty_Player
Finally, the strategy of playing with the Capitol will take on new colors :D :D :D :D
Yes, money conquers all) And if you add an external Capitol to the map :smile08:
***
I'm rereading the ideas in this thread now, and I came across another aspect of the demand for the hero selection system I proposed: =Lizard=
I think Galtran should be removed from the HL+U templates at the programming level. Few will argue that his appearance in the tavern in HL+U turns the game into a farce.
LuckyF
That's hilarious:smile52: Personally, I'm much more afraid of seeing Gunnar on the opponent's side.
=Lizard=
Let's play a series on HL+U with Galtran-Gunnar, if it's so funny.
LuckyF
I already answered on the stream that if it were possible to make it so that I get Gosha and you get Gunnar when playing with regular castles and standard trading, I would gladly play.
From this, another suggestion immediately follows - in the template settings, make it possible to set a set of heroes that will definitely be included in the list of 40 (or not 40, this number also needs to be customizable in the template) random heroes provided to players before map generation.
Yes, I know you're already tired of suggestions regarding secondary skills, but I can't help myself. I'll write down a few ideas that seemed most interesting to me:
1) First Aid Tent
On Expert difficulty, the tent provides "area" healing, restoring 100% health to all units in a given area. If the tent is destroyed, it is restored after the battle.
2) Eagle Eye
The ability to view the opponent's spellbook before the start of the battle. On Expert difficulty, you can immediately learn one spell from it. Before the battle, the enemy receives a notification: "the opponent is viewing your spellbook" or "the opponent has learned a spell from your book."
You can create a similar function on the adventure map so that on Expert difficulty, you can steal a control spell.
3) Training
In Might and Magic, this skill gave a 100% bonus to training on Expert difficulty, and in the end, it could be forgotten and replaced with another skill. And despite all this, it was still rarely taken, so I suggest adding the following functionality in addition to the training bonus:
When leveling up, you are offered a choice of 3 skills (instead of 2) for basic training, 4 for advanced training, and 5 for Expert training.
There's also one more thing that comes to mind (now pay attention, no one has suggested this to you yet):
The ability to refuse a skill in the witch's hut and with the scholar!
4) Diplomacy
Leave the percentages for joining (possibly only half the stack), but now on Expert diplomacy, neutral troops always offer to let the hero pass without a fight for a certain fee. That is, they always seem to run away, but they don't run away, they just let you pass for money.
That is, now you can, for example, quickly level up diplomacy, collect money, and go to the center on Jebus in the first few days, receiving a certain bonus.
I agree, it all looks balanced. Eagle Eye will be a strategic skill. It will definitely add more excitement to the game. On Jebus, I think you can even take it as a starting skill. But this is clearly unnecessary: the ability to steal a control spell on the adventure map. Having perfect leveling up for the cost of one skill (Training) is also not bad.
