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Posts from 2016 Winter Tournament: "Frozen Heart"

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#46
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Since there's no response to my post on the IRMG forum about version 1.7.9, and the discussion is happening here, I'll share my thoughts:
I suspect that version 1.7.9 of the generator isn't generating starting zones correctly (a mountain in the middle of the starting zone or a sausage-shaped starting zone). Moreover, the old templates were used (which haven't been updated for about a year).
Daniel and I played at least 20 games (probably more) on version 1.7.9, using the old templates, and it almost always generated starting zones like the ones I described – at least one of the two players experienced this, and the other might have been luckier.
We reverted to the previous generator, kept the same templates, and played a few games – the difference was huge, and the problems described above were practically gone (at least, there wasn't a mountain in the starting zone even once).
I won't argue with DVP or Moz – they know better what might be causing the problems I described (IRMG or the template itself). So, this is just a theory.
But the situation is as I described it. This is how it works in practice.
I admit that this might just be Daniel's and my impression. Maybe everyone else is generating everything perfectly in version 1.7.9 and has no problems. In that case, we can close the issue.

P.S. In my administrative work, there have been several cases where I said, "This can't be happening because it's impossible." And then it turned out that it could happen if certain stars aligned in a specific way. The same might be true here – let's sit down and carefully analyze the situation. I'm not against new versions (of the generator or the templates). I just want to have versions in the tournament that don't have any issues. And we won't need to revert to the previous version in the middle of the tournament.
In reply to Stefandmy
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#47
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Where exactly in the rules does it say that you can’t jump in the game?
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#48
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I don't know why they're needed – the current walls already prevent jumping. And the hole in the wall is probably a bug in the map generation.

Added 2 minutes later
chudo_ud0
But where is it actually written in the rules that you can't jump in the game?

I think this point created that impression for me. Apparently, it's incorrect.

10. It is forbidden to use the "Astral Gate" spell to jump from any zone to the opponent's starting zone if the connecting portal/garrison is not breached.
Стримы HMM5 на полных картах мод TE:
ru.twitch.tv/noom11

Alex_nv - draw - Vovan112013 летос 236

alex_nv wrote: Наконец то нормальная игра с открытием половины карты.
In reply to Noom
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#49
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"10. It is forbidden to use the 'Astral Gate' spell to jump from any zone to the opponent's starting zone if the connecting portal/garrison has not been breached. It is also forbidden to use the 'Astral Gate' spell to jump into the opponent's adjacent zone and then, in the same turn, move into the opponent's starting zone."
According to these rules, if a portal has been breached into the opponent's zone, nothing prevents you from jumping in and capturing the Castle. That's the only restriction on Astral Gates; everything else is allowed. Basically, once the turns have crossed, the portal is likely breached, creating a theoretical passage between the Castles, and therefore, starting from the 3rd week, you can jump into the opponent's zone and calmly capture the Castle.

Added 10 minutes ago
BOLIVAR
Since there is no response to my message on the IRMG forum regarding version 1.7.9, and the discussion is taking place here, I will also express my opinion:
I suspect that version 1.7.9 of the generator does not generate starting zones correctly (a mountain in the middle of the starting zone or a sausage-shaped starting zone). Moreover, the old templates were used (which have not been updated for about a year).
Daniel and I played at least 20 games (probably more) on version 1.7.9, using the old templates, and it almost always generated such starting zones as I described - at least one of the two players definitely had this, the other might have been luckier.
We returned the previous generator, left the templates the same, and played a few games - it's like night and day; the above-mentioned problems are practically gone (at least, there was no mountain in the starting zone even once).
I will not argue with DVP or Moz - they know better what exactly might be influencing the above-mentioned problems (IRMG or the template itself). That is, this is a theory.
But the situation is as I described. That is, how it is in practice.
I admit that this may only be Daniel's and my impressions. And for everyone else, everything is generated perfectly in version 1.7.9, and there are no problems. Then the issue can be closed.

P.S. In my administrative work, there have been several cases when I said - this cannot be, because it never can be. And then it turned out that it can, if the stars align in a certain way in the sky. So here - let's sit down and carefully figure it out. I am not against new versions (either of the generator or of the templates). I just would like to have such versions in the tournament that have no complaints. And there will be no need to revert to the previous version in the middle of the tournament.
I fully support this post; it generates nonsense with mountains in 30% of cases, and it seems like everything has been updated, and the version is correct, and all the settings are good.
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#50
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In point 10, adjacent zones of any type are clearly implied ("a portal/garrison connecting them" in the singular).
Стримы HMM5 на полных картах мод TE:
ru.twitch.tv/noom11

Alex_nv - draw - Vovan112013 летос 236

alex_nv wrote: Наконец то нормальная игра с открытием половины карты.
In reply to Noom
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#51
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Noom
Point 10 clearly refers to adjacent zones of any type ("a portal/garrison connecting them" in the singular).
What is "implied" there can only be guessed. For example, some thought that you couldn't jump in the Grand Order, but half of them do.
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#52
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Vip.rus
10. It is forbidden to use the "Astral Gate" spell to jump from any zone to the opponent's starting zone if the connecting portal/garrison has not been breached. It is also forbidden to use the "Astral Gate" spell to jump into the opponent's adjacent zone and then, in the same turn, run into the opponent's starting zone.
The only possible interpretation of the first sentence of rule 10: if the portal/passage to the opponent's starting zone is not breached, then using the "Astral Gate" spell to jump into the opponent's starting zone is forbidden. Consequently, if the portal/passage to the opponent's starting zone is breached, then using the "Astral Gate" spell to jump into the opponent's starting zone is allowed.
If the opponent breaches a passage into your starting zone, be prepared for their jump. There are no theoretical passages.
Vip.rus
It is also forbidden to use the "Astral Gate" spell to jump into the opponent's adjacent zone and then, in the same turn, run into the opponent's starting zone.
What's so terrible about that?
It is forbidden to run into the starting zone, which means that at least one turn will be spent deciding how to counter the opponent in the given situation.
And then, there are only a few players who, by the 3rd week, will be able to create such a situation for chudo_ud0...
Будьте осторожны со своими желаниями. Иногда они исполняются.
Сервер в Discord
Стрим на twitch.tv
Стрим на GG

ЛИДЕР Клана"ХРАНИТЕЛИ НЕБЕСНЫХ ВРАТ" Рейтинг: Латник
Вступление в клан "Хранители небесных врат"
In reply to KillAndAction
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#53
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For example, if the starting zone template has 5 portals, and all portals are captured by the red player, I don't understand how the blue player will be able to capture them. If capturing portals by the red player is considered a sufficient condition for teleportation, then what will be the difference between capturing 1 portal by the same red player, allowing the blue player to teleport, and the condition I described above?
In reply to chudo_ud0
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#54
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chudo_ud0
For example, if the starting zone template has 5 portals, and all portals are captured by the red player, I don't understand how the blue player will be able to capture them. If capturing portals by the red player is considered a sufficient condition for teleportation, then what will be the difference between capturing 1 portal by the same red player for teleportation by the blue player, and therefore the condition I mentioned above?
Yes, I don't understand what the problem is.
No one plays a single hero anymore; defend your city. I don't need to explain such things to you. You are much more experienced than me.
And then, what prevents you from jumping to your opponent's starting zone as well? You and your opponent are in equal conditions.
Будьте осторожны со своими желаниями. Иногда они исполняются.
Сервер в Discord
Стрим на twitch.tv
Стрим на GG

ЛИДЕР Клана"ХРАНИТЕЛИ НЕБЕСНЫХ ВРАТ" Рейтинг: Латник
Вступление в клан "Хранители небесных врат"
In reply to KillAndAction
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#55
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KillAndAction

What’s so terrible about that?
It’s forbidden to rush into the starting zone, which means that at least one turn will be spent deciding how to counter the opponent in the current situation.
And there are only a few players who, by the 3rd week, can create such a situation for chudo_ud0...
This rule was introduced when Dima started massively leveling up and exploiting Warlocks – he would take the Jump spell and jump into the starting zone every two turns, which was a very clever tactic.
Стримы HMM5 на полных картах мод TE:
ru.twitch.tv/noom11

Alex_nv - draw - Vovan112013 летос 236

alex_nv wrote: Наконец то нормальная игра с открытием половины карты.
In reply to Noom
#56
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Noom
This rule was introduced when Dima started massively leveling up and exploiting Warlocks – he would take the Jump skill and, every two turns, jump into the starting castle, which was a clever tactic.
That's exactly what happened against me; I wasn't particularly into using jump skills. The situation is simple: the blue player jumps, gets an extra turn, and runs into the castle. This rule is specifically to prevent that.
In reply to dmitrik
#57
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Read carefully!
Point 10 is interpreted only as follows -
if you, while in ANY zone on the map, have not created a passage from it to the opponent's starting zone, you cannot jump into their starting zone.
In reply to Vip.rus
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#58
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This rule was invented back when walls were thin. Plus, it serves as insurance against jumping over a guard post to reach the Gate of Oblivion (GO), if that passage was generated as a guard post.
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#59
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As I recall, Dima defeated Exam by cleverly using a Warlock with the Jump ability to attack through a wall, and shortly after that, Jump was disabled.
Стримы HMM5 на полных картах мод TE:
ru.twitch.tv/noom11

Alex_nv - draw - Vovan112013 летос 236

alex_nv wrote: Наконец то нормальная игра с открытием половины карты.
In reply to Vip.rus
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#60
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Vip.rus
Read carefully!
Point 10 is interpreted only as follows -
if you, while in ANY zone on the map, have not created a passage from it to the opponent's starting zone, you cannot jump into their starting zone.

"if you"...
But what if the opponent has already broken through? And there is nothing left to break through? I understand that it is possible then?

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